Diablo® III

Paragon 2.0 question

09/22/2013 07:09 PMPosted by Wxmyjnsn
They did this so you could play other classes and not feel penalized


Or so you would feel LESS penalized, since you're already going to be losing hundreds of points of main stat, and can't even put points back into the stuff you lose, except on Blizzard's pre-determined schedule.
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Alright, so. Let's get everything into one place. :)

Paragon 2.0 is a work-in-progress.
All points below are as of current design.
Details are subject to change before Paragon 2.0 goes live.
More information will be made available as development continues.


- With Paragon 2.0, we're making three significant changes to the Paragon system. The first is that we're removing the cap on Paragon levels. Players can now earn as many Paragon levels as they please.

- The second is that Paragon levels are now account-wide per game type. Game type = game mode (i.e. Normal and Hardcore). All Normal characters on an account will share a Paragon level. Similarly, all Hardcore characters on an account will share a Paragon level. Following Paragon 2.0 going live, any Paragon experience you gain on your Normal or Hardcore characters will contribute to your account’s Normal Shared Paragon level or Hardcore Shared Paragon level, respectively.

- The third change is that we've removed the innate bonuses granted by Paragon levels, and players will now earn Paragon Points every time they level up. These points can then be spent to boost up various stats in four different categories: Core Stats, Offensive, Defensive, and Adventure.

- What category a Paragon Point can be spent in will be determined by what Paragon level you earn. Paragon level 1 gives you a point to spend in "Core Stat," Paragon level 2 gives you a point to in "Offensive," Paragon level 3 gives you a point to spend in "Defensive," and Paragon level 4 gives you a point to spend in "Utility" (or "Adventure"). Each Paragon level past that follows the same pattern.

- All categories other than Core Stats (DEX, INT, STR, VIT) have a cap on the number of points that can be allocated to them, which also means there is a cap to the total number of points that 3 of the 4 categories can have. At present, this means if you reach Shared Paragon 800, you will have maxed the number of points that can be allocated to the Offensive, Defensive, and Utility categories and all future Paragon levels you earn will grant you a point in the Core Stat category instead.

- Your account's Paragon Point pool is not shared between your characters. Instead, characters on your account will each get their own set of Paragon Points to spend independently (e.g. you can spend your Paragon Points differently for each character). To provide an example, if your account's Normal Shared Paragon level is 100, all Normal characters on your account will each get 100 Paragon Points to distribute as you see fit.

- Players can respec their Paragon Points. We've not yet finalized whether or not respeccing Paragon Points will incur a cost, or what the respec cost might be if we decide to implement one.

- When Paragon 2.0 goes live, we'll being adding up all the Paragon experience on each of your characters, and we'll be using that combined total (the total amount of Paragon experience you have, not the total number of Paragon levels) to determine your Shared Paragon level. Again, this will be broken down by game type.

- The leveling curve for Paragon 2.0 has not yet been finalized, so we are unable to provide a direct conversion of current Paragon levels > Shared Paragon levels at this time.

- Under Paragon 2.0, if a character dies or is deleted, the amount of Paragon experience it contributed to your Shared Paragon level will not be lost. This is a benefit of having Paragon experience stored at the account level, rather than at the character level.

- Whether or not currently-dead characters will contribute to your account's Hardcore Shared Paragon level once Paragon 2.0 rolls out has not been decided. We know that this is impacting the way some Hardcore enthusiasts are choosing to play right now, so once we've made a decision we'll be sure to let you know. (Note, however, that even if we do make a decision in the near future, things may still change all the way up until Paragon 2.0 goes live based on testing and feedback.)

- All characters will be able to contribute to Shared Paragon levels equally. There are no bonuses or burdens for Paragon leveling multiple characters of the same class.

- We don't have any information about new Paragon portraits at this time.

- Travis Day offers more development insight into Paragon 2.0 [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/10025092427"]here[/url], [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9882180021?page=2#38"]here[/url], and [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9882180012#9"]here[/url].

Feedback is absolutely welcome!


I am interesting that In the Paragon 2.0,Levelup should be need more experience.

Presume that i levelup to paragon 800 need 800days and get the 800 paragon points,800days is too long,so the player spend 80days to levelup 100paragon,than he delete the character and than spend 80days do it again to levelup 100paragon,
Process be done 8 times and spend 80X8=640days,he also get 800 paragon points,but only need 640days,that is so bad....

i think the std and hc must be difference in the paragon 2.0,In other words,the ladder mode must be Difference from the other mode in paragon 2.0.That must be funny.
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I am interesting that In the Paragon 2.0,Levelup should be need more experience.

Presume that i levelup to paragon 800 need 800days and get the 800 paragon points,800days is too long,so the player spend 80days to levelup 100paragon,than he delete the character and than spend 80days do it again to levelup 100paragon,
Process be done 8 times and spend 80X8=640days,he also get 800 paragon points,but only need 640days,that is so bad....

i think the std and hc must be difference in the paragon 2.0,In other words,the ladder mode must be Difference from the other mode in paragon 2.0.That must be funny.


I think you got it wrong there...

If you delete your barb the paragon level will still be the same and a new barb will start with this level and will need the normal amount of XP for the next level as the old barb would. Same if you delete the barb and start a monk or whatever combination of deleted char/class and new char/class

Additionally:
I'm not quite sure about my motivation playing the game:
D3 really is fun. Brain off, WW barb (ITF, WotB) and max out dmg. D3 is nothing really challenging with this build. Instead WD or Sorc seem to survive harder (because they can't move during dealing damage).
Do I want this game to be my timefiller and spend some fun playing with my friends OR do I expect a challenge to master?

So all this 'nerfing' discussion is about the purpose of playing the game. Have a look at the monster power system: Was this a nerf? I don't know the system before, but my friends tell me that inferno was like MP3 now... How the hell could a selffounder play inferno before this crafting opportunities? My (hardcore) WD almost 'dies' in 1 of 5 runs (luckily, there is a nice passive skill...)

See nerfing as a challenge, not as a punishment! It's not about you, it's about the game.

So, as I said, I still don't know if I like the changes that will come, but I think I will take them and make the best of them
Edited by ZeuZ#2968 on 9/23/2013 12:10 AM PDT
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突然想知道细节了 攻击 防御 辅助1点=? 咳~
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09/22/2013 11:37 AMPosted by Angst
Sounds great to me. Even the distribution. Gives people something to REALLY grind up for and not be instantly OP. Im curious how the plvl 2.0 will work with a new level cap? Thought I read somewhere we can hit 70? Also will there be any reduction in say gem costs since we don't need so much of a gold sink anymore? From just pickup and vendoring, 10s of millions is a bit much for JUST a gem. Or will it stay the same to promote longevity in looting?


Are you out of your mind? Did you even bothered to read the datamined info... how does a OVER-NERF changes to most of ur skills make you OP instantly?

Do you seriously think that even with 10x100 paragon lvl char is going to get u far upon ROS release, its just going to be lvl 300 at most, that gives u 300 points to spare...

300 pts - 10% CC, 50%CD, 10% IAS, 250 pri, 250VIT, 50 MS... you called that OP instantly? Even with no restriction?

Please look at the datamined info and stop saying players are going to get OP, that is a very shallow thinking when ur tDPS is going to drop by 50-60% INSTANTLY! (especially for barb)

With such big nerf coming... Paragon 2.0 only act as a cushion to lessen the impact, NOT overpower any character... So please Blizz stop trying to TELL US how we should spent our points... we are not your kids or slaves!
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Oh btw 50 pts of MS added does not give you 50 MS... that is impossible, its either 10MS or 25MS... Blizz is never that lenient in dishing out bonus!
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Could HC be kept pure and the paragon 2.0 exp be added to SC exp on HC death ?
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This sounds pretty bland and crappy... Why not just make Specific Character Levels that could be used to up main stat + passive skill uppers.

Then account paragon that gives adventuring and utility stuff for all your characters at once.....

Seems like even more content recycling with zero substance to me.
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Community Manager
Posts: 3,258
I think I added a sufficient number of caveats to my previous post, but let me go ahead and reiterate: Paragon 2.0 is still very much in development, and nothing is set in stone at this point. The system will likely undergo several changes (based on testing and feedback) before it ships.

So, on that note. For those of you who've voiced a dislike of the Paragon 2.0 mechanics quoted below, what kind of functionality would you prefer to see instead? (And most importantly, why would you prefer that functionality over the one currently being considered?)

- What category a Paragon Point can be spent in will be determined by what Paragon level you earn. Paragon level 1 gives you a point to spend in "Core Stat," Paragon level 2 gives you a point to in "Offensive," Paragon level 3 gives you a point to spend in "Defensive," and Paragon level 4 gives you a point to spend in "Utility" (or "Adventure"). Each Paragon level past that follows the same pattern.

- All categories other than Core Stats (DEX, INT, STR, VIT) have a cap on the number of points that can be allocated to them, which also means there is a cap to the total number of points that 3 of the 4 categories can have. At present, this means if you reach Shared Paragon 800, you will have maxed the number of points that can be allocated to the Offensive, Defensive, and Utility categories and all future Paragon levels you earn will grant you a point in the Core Stat category instead.


While simply saying "yes, I like this" or "no, I don't like this" is totally legit feedback, digging a little bit deeper into the details helps us get a better feel for what kind of experience you're really looking for.

Thanks!
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What I dislike about the combined paragon system is that it removes some of the essence of character progression. Playing a character in particular, and having that specific character get stronger as you play. I felt my wizard get significantly more powerful as I leveled him from around 20 to 100, despite my barbarian being around 90 at the time, and really enjoyed the experience. Yes, I was theoretically gaining less from looting than I would have on my barbarian, but that's okay. I wouldn't have expected a fresh level 1 character to be as effective as a level 60, either.

I know that the goal of paragon 2.0 is to make the player feel less forced to continue playing their main, but I feel like it's likely that it'll actually backfire and do the opposite. It will place the incentive on simply playing the most efficient character, and will remove the correlation between time being spent on a particular character and their power. One can spend 1000 hours on a barbarian gaining paragon points, and then have their fresh 60 wizard with under an hour spend get fast forwarded to that level of power. I feel like that takes away a lot of the core of what the leveling process should be. It's supposed to simulate the growth of a character as their skill increases, and make you feel more invested in them with more playtime.
Edited by silverfire#1855 on 9/23/2013 2:47 PM PDT
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1. add more affixes of crowd control to gears, say, big number chance of slow, freeze, stun, blind.....
those are really fun to have in the gears, the current affixes of crowd control on gears are just not good enough to be practically useful except a few ones on weapons.
2. remove randomness of key run or organs runs or the future materials runs, I suggest, we can do like this: with mp 0, you have to kill 10 groups of elite to guarantee a drop, with mp 1, you only need to kill 9 elites, with mp 2, 8 elites, .....so, people with bad gears, can spend time to get drops but still have the rewarding feeling playing the game. guaranteed drop is the key!
3. add skill on the gears that belongs to other classes. say, BB can use a gear to teleport or a DH can use a gear to Berserk, wouldn't that be cool?
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Posts: 1,312
(And most importantly, why would you prefer that functionality over the one currently being considered?)


The nearly universal consensus from every responding post since your last one seems to be, simply put, to not restrict players' allocations of their paragon points.

Caps are fine, but get rid of this: "What category a Paragon Point can be spent in will be determined by what Paragon level you earn. Paragon level 1 gives you a point to spend in "Core Stat," Paragon level 2 gives you a point to in "Offensive," Paragon level 3 gives you a point to spend in "Defensive," and Paragon level 4 gives you a point to spend in "Utility" (or "Adventure"). Each Paragon level past that follows the same pattern."

If someone wants to first cap out their main stat, let them. If someone else wants to first cap out MF/GF, let them. If someone wants to focus exclusively on CC, let them.

This is especially important now that you are removing the AH. Without an AH, deficiencies in particular stats that result from finding a new piece of gear cannot be fixed by searching for and replacing a replacement for another piece. If paragon points can be assigned without restriction and can be rerolled easily, this is not a problem.

A broader point: One of players' biggest gripes about D3 was a diminution of character customization between D2 and D3. Paragon 2.0 sounded great at first in that it added customization. Instead of a static increase in points per level, players would get to pick where to assign points. Not as great as adding points to particular skills, but something. The update you posted takes that away.
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Posts: 1,312
Also, I cannot fathom why you are pooling paragon points in HC. In SC it makes sense, but for hardcore the whole point is that you loose everything when you die. It's...hard....core...

I don't play HC so I'm not invested, but if I did play HC I'd be seriously disappointed.
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I dont like it

1) in the end if I have 2 crusader lvl 800 they will have same stats
Where the build diversity? Only in loot? Why change than?

2) add more options like 0/50 every point give you x% thorns damage
Or 200/200 nephalem can have 4 passives instead of 3,
Or 0/50 every point give x extra mana( wrath, fury, etc)

3) if i want to do a tanker Crusader in HC new ladder i dont want to apend my fresh points in MF/GF i want to first max defensive bonus. I want to be free in my build maling decision

Thanks for hearing diablo fans who want to play the REAL diablo way of play
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@Beavis:

I don't like this idea either. I would like to spend all my allocated paragon points where I want to spend them. I think that the current system is a little limiting for lower level paragons.
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Wouldnt like to be forced to pick "pickup range" just as an example....
So no from here.
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I think I added a sufficient number of caveats to my previous post, but let me go ahead and reiterate: Paragon 2.0 is still very much in development, and nothing is set in stone at this point. The system will likely undergo several changes (based on testing and feedback) before it ships.

So, on that note. For those of you who've voiced a dislike of the Paragon 2.0 mechanics quoted below, what kind of functionality would you prefer to see instead? (And most importantly, why would you prefer that functionality over the one currently being considered?)

- What category a Paragon Point can be spent in will be determined by what Paragon level you earn. Paragon level 1 gives you a point to spend in "Core Stat," Paragon level 2 gives you a point to in "Offensive," Paragon level 3 gives you a point to spend in "Defensive," and Paragon level 4 gives you a point to spend in "Utility" (or "Adventure"). Each Paragon level past that follows the same pattern.

- All categories other than Core Stats (DEX, INT, STR, VIT) have a cap on the number of points that can be allocated to them, which also means there is a cap to the total number of points that 3 of the 4 categories can have. At present, this means if you reach Shared Paragon 800, you will have maxed the number of points that can be allocated to the Offensive, Defensive, and Utility categories and all future Paragon levels you earn will grant you a point in the Core Stat category instead.


While simply saying "yes, I like this" or "no, I don't like this" is totally legit feedback, digging a little bit deeper into the details helps us get a better feel for what kind of experience you're really looking for.

Thanks!


Honestly, I would prefer that your can spend your points in any MAIN category (like vitality, agility, intelligence, strength) until you cap them (set a reasonable number), then once you cap vitality and your main stat, you can then put them in the other stats such as MF, GF, etc...
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