Diablo® III

Paragon 2.0 question

I think I added a sufficient number of caveats to my previous post, but let me go ahead and reiterate: Paragon 2.0 is still very much in development, and nothing is set in stone at this point. The system will likely undergo several changes (based on testing and feedback) before it ships.

So, on that note. For those of you who've voiced a dislike of the Paragon 2.0 mechanics quoted below, what kind of functionality would you prefer to see instead? (And most importantly, why would you prefer that functionality over the one currently being considered?)


1. Distributing Paragon Points
I would prefer to add a point to any category every paragon level. This system vs the current allows players to stack points wherever they want, so if someone loves IAS (my monk for example) they can add IAS. If someone only wants to stack Vit they can do that too. That's customization. The current system of 1 category per point is it forces players to chose their least hated stat per category not the actual stat they want. In the current system I can guarantee 99% of players will chose the same stats until their capped and then move on to a similar stat. First IAS, then CC, then CD. First AR, the Armor.

2. Innate level bonuses
I don't care about the GF and MF buff, but I would prefer to keep some kind of level bonus like in Paragon 1.0. Even if the level bonus flattens out after paragon 100, to say +2 Main +1 Vit/others. The reason why the level bonus is great because you does the typical stat allocation automatically freeing players from the feeling they are spending their points wrong. One of the problems with the D2 stat system is players can make the wrong permanent choices. With an infinite amount of core stats and automatic core stats every level players no longer think "Is this the right choice?" and instead get to think "Yeah, more VITALITY". The first thought makes you feel like a programmer, the second thought makes you feel like a super hero, that's the difference.
Edited by Gorbulan#1175 on 9/23/2013 3:14 PM PDT
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09/23/2013 02:30 PMPosted by Lylirra
- What category a Paragon Point can be spent in will be determined by what Paragon level you earn. Paragon level 1 gives you a point to spend in "Core Stat," Paragon level 2 gives you a point to in "Offensive," Paragon level 3 gives you a point to spend in "Defensive," and Paragon level 4 gives you a point to spend in "Utility" (or "Adventure"). Each Paragon level past that follows the same pattern.


It seems like you have spent my points already, before Ive even gotten them. It would be a good idea w/o that, I could spend points in any category... but why are you telling me where to put it??

Also I don't like they way you are handling HC points... keeping points when you die is bad, but getting points for already dead characters is crazy...
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I like it, I like the fact that it is unlimited, and I understand why we can't spend our points were we want at every single level. There are 2 reasons :

1) It creates more choices : if we didnt have to spend at most 50 points in core stats until lvl 800 we would completly ignore dexterity intelligence and probably vitality too. Same for defensive stats like life percent, armor etc...

2) It allows us to keep some "good stuff" for the later levels.The other option would be get everything we like in the first levels, then spend hours after hours (750 to 800) just to increase our pick up radius.With caps we stay motivated forever.

I still believe there is room for other stats,mainly thorn % and bonus to skills (hard to implement, I know) but also life regen % and life per hit %. Otherwise I am very satisfied with what you previewed, and I hope you won't listen too much to the crowd : if politicians listened to the people, the world would be a mess ;)
Edited by Gael#1476 on 9/23/2013 3:27 PM PDT
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Posts: 461
09/23/2013 02:30 PMPosted by Lylirra
While simply saying "yes, I like this" or "no, I don't like this" is totally legit feedback, digging a little bit deeper into the details helps us get a better feel for what kind of experience you're really looking for.


I think the quality of the drops should reflect the difficulty of a fight. If I spend 20 minutes to take down a boss, I feel like I deserve a legendary. If I spend 5 seconds to down a boss, the loot should be common. The challenge is that everyone has their feeling for what is appropriate difficulty. However MP selectivity should allow players to ramp up bosses, to force longer encounters, and hence better loot.

Honestly, the game as it stands, boss fights feel like any other mob......tank the damage...and melt them down.
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How about making a simple requirement that has to be met, before the Paragon sharing takes place? Something like:
Characters can only share Paragon levels/exp after they have completed Inferno ACT IV.

That way, players will not lose the enjoyment/excitement of leveling new characters and gaining experience with new classes/builds.

This could be applied to both Hardcore and Softcore modes.
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Caps are fine, but get rid of this: "What category a Paragon Point can be spent in will be determined by what Paragon level you earn. Paragon level 1 gives you a point to spend in "Core Stat," Paragon level 2 gives you a point to in "Offensive," Paragon level 3 gives you a point to spend in "Defensive," and Paragon level 4 gives you a point to spend in "Utility" (or "Adventure"). Each Paragon level past that follows the same pattern."

If someone wants to first cap out their main stat, let them. If someone else wants to first cap out MF/GF, let them. If someone wants to focus exclusively on CC, let them.



I agree with Beavis. There is no need to limit choices. Caps are ok, because clearly 120% CritChance does not work, 100% Cooldown is not intended or 1000% MF would be to much of an advantage.

I really hope the xp curve won't exponential after p800 though. If it would require at some point over 100h to get to the next level you could as well add a cap, because it becomes pointless. A linear increase until p800 and then constant requirements would be the system that motivates me the most.
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90 Human Paladin
9525
Posts: 121
I dont like the idea of no level cap on it?? Is that going to just mean if you at lvl 9303 you do insane damage and life? Also is there any plans to cap any of this in pvp?

Also the no level cap can be really daunting and prevent new players from enjoying the game because they can never catch up and will always be behind (this is probably my biggest dislike)

I also dont like the concept we are restricted where we put our points seems like the choice has been made for us. Also the shared takes away from character diversity as opposed to having builds I was hoping more for a system like D2 where i could have a wind druid and then a Shapeshifter druid. With this system why would u ever have a second char of the same type? (just have the other gear set in your stash)
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Like most, I do not like the limitations of where to allocate points. My suggestion would be that every other level you get 2 points, the extra one can go where ever a player wants.

I also don't like the idea of caps and would prefer some kind of growing point cost to improve a given non-core stat. As an example Critical hit chance could go from 0.1% to 10% at 50 points but after that it would take an increasing amount of points to improve the CHC with a suggested point cost cap of 9 (which with my above suggestion would take 12 paragon levels to get).
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09/23/2013 03:16 PMPosted by Ziden
While simply saying "yes, I like this" or "no, I don't like this" is totally legit feedback, digging a little bit deeper into the details helps us get a better feel for what kind of experience you're really looking for.


I think the quality of the drops should reflect the difficulty of a fight. If I spend 20 minutes to take down a boss, I feel like I deserve a legendary. If I spend 5 seconds to down a boss, the loot should be common. The challenge is that everyone has their feeling for what is appropriate difficulty. However MP selectivity should allow players to ramp up bosses, to force longer encounters, and hence better loot.

Honestly, the game as it stands, boss fights feel like any other mob......tank the damage...and melt them down.


1) first that is not the point here
2) so if i want good loot i will have to run around boss and wait time? U must be kidding me
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A little concern from me-

Instead of Paragon points being innate stats per level, they will be assigned by the character for some "customisation".

The problem here is, is that there is a cap to all the stats we can allocate points to, except for "core" stats. So in the end everyone will have the same maxed out stats, removing all "individuality" or "customisation" and would completely void the choice to "re-spec your points".

Not only does that not end up with anyone having any form of different stat allocation, but also defeats the purpose of having a re-spec option.

Perhaps there needs to be another way the stats to be capped or to have sort of a soft cap like diminishing returns. Which is the way I thought it would work.

Example:
Let's say each Paragon level gives you 5 stat points to allocate, now the pick up yard radius bonus caps out at 15, taking 2 Paragon points to increase the attribute point.
Now let's say you've reached the "soft cap" of 15. After that, it's like levelling up the attribute. Now the new cap is 20, but within this cap, it now takes 3 or 4 paragon points to increase a point in that stat.

Think of the same thing along with say, movement speed, attack speed and all the other good stuff.

Now it might take you 200 points (which let's pretend takes a freaking long time) of allocating to ONE stat, investing in nothing else as well (so you are losing out on other stats), but with that 200 points of investing into diminishing returns, you imagine what the number might be. :D

My idea is that none of the stats should actually have caps, but get to a certain point where even assigning 10 Paragon levels worth of points becomes a bad choice. In this way, there becomes choice and a sense of "what stat to do now". Also giving a meaning and a hefty cost to the re-spec ability.

There would now be a choice and sacrifice to where you assign your points. Either stacking on one or two and missing out on the others, or having your all round balanced character.

What do you think Travis? haha
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Posts: 461
09/23/2013 02:30 PMPosted by Lylirra
For those of you who've voiced a dislike of the Paragon 2.0 mechanics quoted below, what kind of functionality would you prefer to see instead?


Some people have reference Sacred 2, noting that it has a mechanic ideal for Soft-core play. The idea is that monsters grow in strength as the player accumulates kills. Once the player dies. The game "resets" so to speak, and monsters scale back to the base strength. Obviously drops would scale with the monster difficulty.

This option would make progression through the game exciting as the difficulty would be increasing steadily and would reward players building survivability, unlike the current state of the game.

Even though this is a Soft core mode, it would be fun (and dangerous!) to play in HC also.
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Posts: 461
I just realized I had gotten loot 2.0 and paragon 2.0 mixed up. Oops!
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09/23/2013 03:22 PMPosted by Kovrim
Also the no level cap can be really daunting and prevent new players from enjoying the game because they can never catch up


Who cares if players can't catch up to whoever they want, does it look like a mmo to you ? Please go back to wow. We want our characters to become gods eventually.
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I think I added a sufficient number of caveats to my previous post, but let me go ahead and reiterate: Paragon 2.0 is still very much in development, and nothing is set in stone at this point. The system will likely undergo several changes (based on testing and feedback) before it ships.

So, on that note. For those of you who've voiced a dislike of the Paragon 2.0 mechanics quoted below, what kind of functionality would you prefer to see instead? (And most importantly, why would you prefer that functionality over the one currently being considered?)

- What category a Paragon Point can be spent in will be determined by what Paragon level you earn. Paragon level 1 gives you a point to spend in "Core Stat," Paragon level 2 gives you a point to in "Offensive," Paragon level 3 gives you a point to spend in "Defensive," and Paragon level 4 gives you a point to spend in "Utility" (or "Adventure"). Each Paragon level past that follows the same pattern.

- All categories other than Core Stats (DEX, INT, STR, VIT) have a cap on the number of points that can be allocated to them, which also means there is a cap to the total number of points that 3 of the 4 categories can have. At present, this means if you reach Shared Paragon 800, you will have maxed the number of points that can be allocated to the Offensive, Defensive, and Utility categories and all future Paragon levels you earn will grant you a point in the Core Stat category instead.


While simply saying "yes, I like this" or "no, I don't like this" is totally legit feedback, digging a little bit deeper into the details helps us get a better feel for what kind of experience you're really looking for.

Thanks!


Ideally: You get 1 point in each category per level (how I originally thought it worked based on early screenshots), or at least > 1, mostly so it's actually worth grinding the things out, and that you don't end up with a lesser benefit now than you have within the current system.

Failing this, you get 1 point and can put it whereever you want, that way you can do things like:

Realize you're dying a lot, so you put a lot in defense.
Realize you have a weak item with pickup radius, so you go for a few pickup radius so you don't need it anymore.
Run for movement speed so you can ditch the Inna's or Lacuni's.
Etc.

It's not much choice but it's choice. Currently it might as well be a set progression.

"But everyone will go straight for trifecta stats!" If those are the defacto, 120% best option in all cases we can go ahead and dismiss this entire loot/paragon 2.0 and hell, the xpac as a whole as a colossal failure, because it's supposed to get away from trifecta spam as the One True Way.
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Posts: 461
09/23/2013 02:30 PMPosted by Lylirra
For those of you who've voiced a dislike of the Paragon 2.0 mechanics quoted below, what kind of functionality would you prefer to see instead?


Paragon 2.0

- Allocated points should be flexible. The round-robin style sounds unintuitive and restrictive.

- Allocated stats should be permanent to encourage different build styles, and create the feeling of distinct builds.
Edited by xsadar#1366 on 9/23/2013 3:37 PM PDT
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I guess the thing that bugs me the most about the new system is in the allocation of utility/adventure points. I think most ppl will almost certainly dump these into MF since it’s something that’s so intrinsic to the gameplay. I thought the great thing about the current system was that it removed the necessity of being totally gimped in MF gear while running low MP levels, since that was the most efficient way to play. So something like this might just move the problem from being gear based to being based around stat point allocation.

I guess the good thing though is that each of your characters will have their own set of points to assign, so I guess you could have a character with maxed MF for farming, but still.. I don't think this is a way I would like to play the game.

09/23/2013 03:25 PMPosted by Snoofo
My idea is that none of the stats should actually have caps, but get to a certain point where even assigning 10 Paragon levels worth of points becomes a bad choice. In this way, there becomes choice and a sense of "what stat to do now". Also giving a meaning and a hefty cost to the re-spec ability.


I actually think this is a pretty cool, maybe remove the cap but have the bonus' effected by diminishing returns?

Just my 2c though, feel free to disagree =P
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if you get to say p400 it would be a huge turnoff, that you have to spend points in categories you don't want to. I don' t need Dex or Int on my barb. So why are you forcing me? I'd rather spend my points on strength or vitality.
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Paragon was originally just a band-aid fix for lack of a real endgame.

Now you guys (Blizzard) are trying to turn it into something more meaningful.

The funny thing is, if there's enough end-game activities to do, there's no reason to even have this endless paragon system.
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I think I added a sufficient number of caveats to my previous post, but let me go ahead and reiterate: Paragon 2.0 is still very much in development, and nothing is set in stone at this point. The system will likely undergo several changes (based on testing and feedback) before it ships.

So, on that note. For those of you who've voiced a dislike of the Paragon 2.0 mechanics quoted below, what kind of functionality would you prefer to see instead? (And most importantly, why would you prefer that functionality over the one currently being considered?)

- What category a Paragon Point can be spent in will be determined by what Paragon level you earn. Paragon level 1 gives you a point to spend in "Core Stat," Paragon level 2 gives you a point to in "Offensive," Paragon level 3 gives you a point to spend in "Defensive," and Paragon level 4 gives you a point to spend in "Utility" (or "Adventure"). Each Paragon level past that follows the same pattern.

- All categories other than Core Stats (DEX, INT, STR, VIT) have a cap on the number of points that can be allocated to them, which also means there is a cap to the total number of points that 3 of the 4 categories can have. At present, this means if you reach Shared Paragon 800, you will have maxed the number of points that can be allocated to the Offensive, Defensive, and Utility categories and all future Paragon levels you earn will grant you a point in the Core Stat category instead.


While simply saying "yes, I like this" or "no, I don't like this" is totally legit feedback, digging a little bit deeper into the details helps us get a better feel for what kind of experience you're really looking for.

Thanks!


Don't force which pool of stats players can use their points in. You mine as well take away any customization and assign the points yourself if you want to do it that way. I feel like you're giving us 4 different cookies, where you then say ok, take a tiny bite of this one, then you move me to the next, and just keep doing that. Let me eat whatever damn cookie I want first and how much of it I want to.

You're afraid of 'set builds' but this doesn't really get away from that at all, just makes it slower for people to level up certain stats. If this is the only goal then all you need to add is diminishing returns - either lower the rate skills/stats/buffs increase by per point spent, or just increase the number of points needed to reach the next level. This will effectively let people make choices of "Do I want to spend 10 paragon points to get an additional crit chance, or would I rather spend these 10 points in different areas for a larger general effect"

Sure you're going to see the "general/best" build and allocation of points for particular builds, but that's really kind of the point. I view the paragon levels as a way to further enhance builds on characters and make them more interesting - all you need to do is make sure not every single class and build HAS to have X and Y and Z to be successful.
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I don't mind the idea of the points being restricted, but would rather it work to where you can always use your points in the Core stats from the beginning if you don't want to invest in the other categories. Also in tandem with that I would rather restrictions go in thirds. First paragon level gets you a point in Offensive, second paragon level would be in Defensive, and third in Utility.

This way you could still slow down how quickly the big three get maxed, which I assume is the point of the restriction, but it won't feel as punishing to the player and we get to be able to decide from Plvl 1 where we want the point to go. Last point, this will make sure if we don't want to level a skill in the big three, we won't have to decide between that and "losing" the paragon point.
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