Diablo® III

Paragon 2.0 question

I'm sorry if this has been brought up before, if so, it was not my intention to repeat or "steal" this idea.

Why limit Paragon 2.0 to just the listed categories? While it will be nice to have some "customization", it still seems a bit dull. I am fully aware that this is not an MMO, but why not have something along the lines of "class specific" categories? Take the witch doctor for example. Paragon points could allow you to buff up your pets, or add utility effects to them. Maybe you want to beef up your DoT spells, or again, add some sort of effect or utility to them. These are just some quick, vague examples off the top of my head. If this were implemented I think it would need to be designed and balanced in such a way that it would not invalidate skill, rune, and passive choices.

I know that with loot 2.0 one goal is that legendaries will be "build changers" but even so I still think that paragon points should do more than add to our pre-existing stats.

With such a system I think it may be better to limit how many points could be spent, thus making the player think about how to best allocate them for their chosen playstyle. Wasn't that the reasoning behind limiting players to six skills instead of seven? To make your choices feel as though they carry more weight? Sure, cookie cutter builds will always exist. Some choices may always be more efficient or popular than others, but at least this would add variety.

As many others have mentioned, with the currently proposed system, eventually the "choice" doesn't do much because everyone has capped the same things.
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09/23/2013 02:30 PMPosted by Lylirra
So, on that note. For those of you who've voiced a dislike of the Paragon 2.0 mechanics quoted below, what kind of functionality would you prefer to see instead? (And most importantly, why would you prefer that functionality over the one currently being considered?)


Again:

So here is a feedback from someone that has played and loved your games since 1994, and like the majority of the players that replied above, share the same concern.

1) Dont cap the way people can spend their Paragon points, leave to us the decision, i think mostly of the players, if not all, would agree on this

2) Giving only 1 paragon point per level aint the best way to do it, should be something like this:

Paragon 1-100 -> 1 point
Paragon 101-200 -> 2 points
Paragon 201-300 -> 3 points
Paragon 301-400 -> 4 points
Paragon 401-500 -> 5 points
Paragon 501-600 -> 6 points
Paragon 601-700 -> 7 points
Paragon 701-800 -> 8 points
Paragon 801-900 -> 9 points
Paragon 900+ -> 10 points

Why not your way? Today we get 7 core stats per paragon level, plus the +3mf/gf, if now we sudently start getting just 1 point that gives 1-5 main stat OR 3% mf OR X bonus for g-zillion exp, well, that aint good, the way i suggested will keep things way more interesting. Or just maybe a number fixed (>1) per paragon level: 3 points to waste per level sounds good, keeps motivation to grind more and more.

Please DO right this time: removing both AH, loot 2.0 and other changes are steps at the right direction, listen to reason, listen to us.
Edited by mimimi#1212 on 9/23/2013 4:12 PM PDT
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Spend every paragon point where we want, else game not as fun. So please make it work.
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09/23/2013 04:11 PMPosted by mimimi
So, on that note. For those of you who've voiced a dislike of the Paragon 2.0 mechanics quoted below, what kind of functionality would you prefer to see instead? (And most importantly, why would you prefer that functionality over the one currently being considered?)


Again:

So here is a feedback from someone that has played and loved your games since 1994, and like the majority of the players that replied above, share the same concern.

1) Dont cap the way people can spend their Paragon points, leave to us the decision, i think mostly of the players, if not all, would agree on this

2) Giving only 1 paragon point per level aint the best way to do it, should be something like this:

Paragon 1-100 -> 1 point
Paragon 101-200 -> 2 points
Paragon 201-300 -> 3 points
Paragon 301-400 -> 4 points
Paragon 401-500 -> 5 points
Paragon 501-600 -> 6 points
Paragon 601-700 -> 7 points
Paragon 701-800 -> 8 points
Paragon 801-900 -> 9 points
Paragon 900+ -> 10 points

Why not your way? Today we get 7 core stats per paragon level, plus the +3mf/gf, if now we sudently start getting just 1 point that gives 1-5 main stat OR 3% mf OR X bonus for g-zillion exp, well, that aint good, the way i suggested will keep things way more interesting. Or just maybe a number fixed (>1) per paragon level: 3 points to waste per level sounds good, keeps motivation to grind more and more.

Please DO right this time: removing both AH, loot 2.0 and other changes are steps at the right direction, listen to reason, listen to us.


REALLY?, so people who don't work for a living that can reach paragon 1000+ gain yet another edge? No.
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I think I understand their reasoning for limiting your options: they don't want everyone to put their first 100-200 points that they will gain on day 1 of Paragon 2.0 all into Crit Chance, Crit Damage, and Attack Speed, making you crazy powerful instantly. While I understand their reasoning, I don't like how they are fixing that problem. Here are a couple of options:

1) Make it so that your options are limited for the first 200 plvls, but after that you can put points earned past plvl 200 into whatever you want.

2) Restrict your options only based on the plvl you are when Paragon 2.0 hits. So, if all your experience combined gets you to plvl 83, those 83 points are restricted, but every point after that is free to go in every category.

3) Change it so that there are only 2 categories that alternate. This way, it gives you more freedom while still limiting you from being overpowered.

I think most people would rather we be able to put points wherever they want, but there is some understandable concern for being to powerful too quickly. There are obviously still problems with these options, but I feel they are all better than the current proposed plan.

Thanks for reading!
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Community Manager
Posts: 3,369
including the low level characters who have not even reached lvl 60?

suppose my account's shared paragon level IS 100.

Does even the level 30 character get 100 paragon Points to spend???


Under current design, yes. Using your example, if your account's Shared Paragon level is 100, all Normal characters on your account would have access to 100 Paragon points, even if they're not at max level (i.e. sub-60).

Again, all subject to change prior to ship, etc etc. :)
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Posts: 291
I would like to have the option to spend every point anywhere. Paragon stats like critical hit chance, magic find, etc should have diminishing returns instead of a hard cap, this would provide more choice when choosing where to put your paragon points at high levels. Otherwise the choice after level 800 or whatever is always main stat.
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MVP
Posts: 19,956
including the low level characters who have not even reached lvl 60?

suppose my account's shared paragon level IS 100.

Does even the level 30 character get 100 paragon Points to spend???


Under current design, yes. Using your example, if your account's Shared Paragon level is 100, all Normal characters on your account would have access to 100 Paragon points, even if they're not at max level (i.e. sub-60).

Again, all subject to change prior to ship, etc etc. :)

If all characters can use them, who is eligible to earn them? 60-70 characters, or just 70? Or all characters?

Never mind, Travis answered it. Max level only.
Edited by Drothvader#1215 on 9/23/2013 4:55 PM PDT
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09/23/2013 04:51 PMPosted by DrothVader
If all characters can use them, who is eligible to earn them? 60-70 characters, or just 70? Or all characters?


According to Travis' recent post here.. http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/10039334430#7 it seems that characters only contribute to your paragon experience bucket once they hit the level cap (60 vanilla and 70 once RoS is unlocked) =P
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I think the idea here they are saying is, once you max out all the attributes that aren't main stat, then you can unlimitedly assign points to any main stat. As I'm your characters main stat.

As if you were a wizard, you wouldn't have to assign any points into dex, ever, if you didn't want to...
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Community Manager
Posts: 3,369
Also, some more information from Travis. I'll be sure to add it to the compiled list in just a bit:

09/23/2013 03:51 PMPosted by Travis Day
Paragon experience is only earned when you are playing a character who is max level. If you are level 60 and paragon 100, when the expansion launches you will continue earning paragon experience in the new system. Once you have the expansion enabled your experience earned will take you from level 60-70 at which point it will again be added to your paragon level instead of character level.


For clarity (since I saw some confusion in the other thread):

- After Paragon 2.0 goes live, if you are level 60 and do not have the expansion enabled on your account, you will continue to earn Paragon experience in the new system. This is because you are still technically at the level cap.

- However, if you are level 60 and decide to enable the expansion on your account, you will stop earning Paragon experience. This is because the expansion increases the level cap to 70. Once you reach level 70, you will start to accrue Paragon experience again from where you left off.

So, basically: Only max-level characters will be able to earn Paragon experience. If you don't have the expansion, max-level = 60. If you have the expansion, max-level = 70.
Edited by Lylirra on 9/23/2013 5:05 PM PDT
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Posts: 34
I must say that the current line up of Paragon 2.0 is beyond counter intuitive. The good news is, these issues can be solved with some thought and balance between freedom of choice and the risk of what comes with it.

Problem: Your capped at how many points you put in All Resist, yet you are unlimited in how many points you spend in Int which also gives you All Resist making the cap on All Resist as a skill point distributor pointless. The same is true for the off stats such as Armor, Dodge and Health. Simply put, there is no reason to even have these off stats as a choice of point allocation let alone a cap.

Solution: This is two fold. First you remove the secondary stats (Armor, Dodge, All Resist, Health) as a point allocation choice since they are pointless as it currently stands. Second you add another reason to invest in the other two stats that your class has no real use for. For example (I made these up on the fly, so don't look too deep into them), add skill proc coefficient to Int, Skill range to Dex, Skill Damage to Str and Skill Duration to Vit. So now, your Barbarian who just tossed a few points into Int gains All Resist and higher proc coefficient. Now your giving heavy incentive to chose outside your main stat while a Wizard, whom invests in Int naturally gains Damage, All Resist and Proc Coefficient. In turn this would make classes feel naturally unique of each other yet still have access to unique play styles/builds.

Problem: Can re-spec points at any time (perhaps at cost) as many times as you wish. Now you have taken the "unique" out of the building of points all together and just made another version of the current skill/runes situation. Once a Barbarian hits level 60, he/she is the same as every other Barbarian at level 60. This is due to the simple fact that every level 60 Barbarian has access to the same skills and runes as every other Barbarian. The same will be true with Paragon Points. Every barbarian will have full access to the same stats which in itself isn't bad, but the choices made for allocating said points is meaningless at a "unique" stand point when everyone can be the same.

Solution: Paragon Points are permanent. You toss 10 points in Move Speed, those aren't going anywhere. Your choice NEEDS to matter. Choice doesn't mean anything when it can be changed at a whim. If there is to be a re-spec option, it needs to be limited, or at the very least it must be earned. An example of that would be every 100 Paragon levels earned, you gain a re-spec point per character. So if your Paragon lvl 354, you have 3 re-spec opportunities per character, this will also be added to newly made characters at any given time.

Problem: Paragon Point choices themselves are too limited. Choices to make skills and/or the runes themselves stronger don't exists.

Solution: Adding another secondary stat to the four core stats that influence skills and runes is one way to go to fix this problem but is not the only one. Paragon points can be used to power up skills/runes themselves straight up. Example being, (off the top of my head) the Barbarian skill Ground Stomp runed with Deafening Crash. You could use Paragon points to lower the rage cost, lower the cooldown, expand the radius/range, lengthen the stun duration, and/or lengthen/strengthen the slow duration. Imagine if you will, a screen wide Ground Stomp that cost 1 rage on a 2 second cooldown. Sound awesome? Over powered? Your damn right, and with the points one would need to make one skill THAT fun...it should be. Pick a skill and a rune and think of the possibilities of how unique every character can be with the power to enhance just one simple skill..and all you did was change the numbers as you saw fit...imagine the possibilities of choice...

With the ideas I have made out above, my intention is bring the classes to a point in which they can be vastly unique as the player chooses which in turn leads to the freedom of choice with a small bit of hand holding with the limited re-spec options. In this way, I feel we can really bring what we loved from Diablo 2 into Diablo 3 if we all put our minds to it and think it out.
Edited by PalmtopTiger#1832 on 9/23/2013 5:11 PM PDT
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Don't mean to hijack this thread, but some blue insight is really needed on other topics of more importance.
:x
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Please notice that the new account wide para. system
DOES NOT INDICATE HOW EXPERIENCE the players are with a particular class.

Current para. system, for example, it shows a player an experienced barb player when he has a para. level 100 barb with a different portrait/icon.

With the new system, we cannot know that.

The players who spent a lot of time/have a lot of experience of a particular class deserve a different portrait of the class on their toons.


No offense but this is a game that requires nothing more than attaching a few skills to a couple mouse buttons and spam clicking them until things die.

Really 0 skill involved here.

I really don't think a Diablo game has ever been about skill. It's more of a random map, random loot, random skills used type game where you customize and make the character stronger the more you play the game.

Oh wait... Maybe your right I've been doing it all wrong the last 16 months, and It is about skill, cause D3 doesn't have anything random or customizable about it!


No offense... please don't quote before you understand what other people are talking about.

I am trying to point out that the new system doesn't indicate how much experience a player has on a particular class.
In the current system, a para-level 100 character shows that the player at least have spent a good amount of time and how familiar he is with the class.
The new system doesn't seem to show that.

Let me repeat:
The players who spend considerable amount of time on a particular class deserve a better looking portrait/icon. It is what we have now in our current system. The new system seem to miss that.
Edited by Luffy#1946 on 9/23/2013 5:09 PM PDT
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What's the point in not bein able to choose what you want straight away? Why wait til later? We're already at end game so it should start straight away.

I think the old Diablo stat assignment should be put in place for the paragon points.

Each level gives you 5 points to assign.
Once you max out one attributes points, it "levels up". Taking more points for that attribute to gain another increment.

So first would be one point per increment.
Next maybe two or three points per increment etc.
Each "level up" for that attribute would continue to take more points assigned to gain the next increment.
This would allow for basically no cap on the attributes, because eventually it would take so long, for example, to gain that extra 0.2% attack speed that it would be a waste of time.

I miss old diablo attribute assignment. (Thought this system is more like what was used for skills)
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MVP
Posts: 19,956
Oh, and as for the round robin allocation style, I think it should stay as is. It will lead to much more meaningful choices this way as each category is pretty equal in their buffs. Otherwise it's not a choice because most points will be spent in one single stat that is the most powerful.

I think opening them up is a bad idea personally. Otherwise you have to nerf those other stats to be equal.
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Seeing as how the actual paragon contribution to stats will drop slightly from the current automatic allocation (if the current allocation were mimicked under paragon 2.0), I would like to see an extra paragon point awarded every 10 levels; perhaps only for the first 100 levels if there is a serious balancing concern.

I also concur that dictating the category for each paragon point based on the level attained really takes away from the character customization options. If a player wants to work towards maxing out a single stat right from the get go, they should have that option. If the developers really feel there must be a limit here, I think a better way to go would be to have the first several paragon levels unlock new categories for paragon point allocation. This has the effect of restricting the point allocation for the first several levels, but still offers a greater sense of reward than the currently proposed mechanics.
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09/23/2013 05:08 PMPosted by Luffy
am trying to point out that the new system doesn't indicate how much experience a player has on a particular class.

And to put it more broadly, it doesn't reflect the amount of time spent period. It goes beyond a portrait or icon...a greater time investment should result in more power. Grinding paragon points on one class and then using them in another that you've barely played on just doesn't sit well with me.
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This will come off as the unpopular opinion but I like the currently laid out system overall. People already consider anyone who doesn't have a super high dps character not worth listening to so anyone who decided to forgo getting all dps stats in order to make themselves a bit more tanky or get some of the adventure stats they haven't been able to find on gear would be treated the same most likely.
The only thing I dislike is that it sounds like being paragon 100 won't have you in the same place you are now for MF/GF. One of the main points of Paragon was to prevent people from needing to gear swap to mf/gf gear once they hit 100 (probably less than that since one piece with decent mf/gf could cover a dozen levels). Needing to go back to that until whatever paragon level allows maxing out those two stats is lame. Also needing to max those out takes away the choice for that category until they are.
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09/23/2013 05:04 PMPosted by LaughingMan
Solution: Paragon Points are permanent. You toss 10 points in Move Speed, those aren't going anywhere. Your choice NEEDS to matter. Choice doesn't mean anything when it can be changed at a whim. If there is to be a re-spec option, it needs to be limited, or at the very least it must be earned. An example of that would be every 100 Paragon levels earned, you gain a re-spec point per character. So if your Paragon lvl 354, you have 3 re-spec opportunities per character, this will also be added to newly made characters at any given time.

At first, I thought that this was a bad idea, but I somewhat feel it might make sense, since paragon points are something of a "bonus" beyond ones' base stats, and having to commit to them would help longevity.
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