Diablo® III

Paragon 2.0 question

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including the low level characters who have not even reached lvl 60?suppose my account's shared paragon level IS 100.Does even the level 30 character get 100 paragon Points to spend???Under current design, yes. Using your example, if your account's Shared Paragon level is 100, all Normal characters on your account would have access to 100 Paragon points, even if they're not at max level (i.e. sub-60). Again, all subject to change prior to ship, etc etc. :)


Thank You very much for clarifying this.

Even though a low level char cannot contribute to paragon points, it would be able to take advantage of them.

What that means to me is that I can use the P-Points to increase customization of low level characters, not just gear.

That among the other things planned may convince me to start playing again.

Because the journey should also be fun not just endgame grind. Its kind of like using low level runewords in D2LoD.
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09/23/2013 04:06 PMPosted by ATXVIVIVI
This way you could still slow down how quickly the big three get maxed, which I assume is the point of the restriction


I assumed that it was so that you wouldn't feel like (or worse, actually be) a chump for putting a point somewhere other than DPS, DPS and more DPS.

The idea of getting one point in each category at once does seem appealing, but it would probably lead to either decreasing the impact of each point, or increasing the amount of experience required per level (or a mix of both -- say, each item going to x/100 scales and each level costing about double what it would have under the rotation system, with the soft cap being reached at 400).

They have some target number for how many hours it ought to take to reach the soft cap and what power level you can get to. Asking to just get more power faster is probably pointless, and wouldn't even make the game more fun.

Nevertheless, enough people seem to be reacting to *specifically* the forced rotation between categories that it might be worth a look at alternative systems like getting 1+1+1+1 point every level. Getting a core stat point and an attack point is going to feel good even if you don't really care about the defense point and the utility point that you also got. Going for 2 levels without a dps-increasing point is the kind of thing that will make some players complain about not being able to put the points where they want.

Even understanding how the system works and that the total power gained per experience would be the same, I'd still probably feel more favorable toward getting movespeed or MF "free", *in addition to* something else, than toward getting them *instead of* something else. Loss aversion is a powerful force.

P.S. In case it isn't obvious, by "soft cap" I mean the point where everything except core stats is maxed out. I actually expect this to take 1000+ hours of gameplay, so even people who play like a second job will take months to get there and the average player would take years or not get it at all, but I think people will still have one eye on it. Especially if there's an 80/20 rule like there is right now, so even people with 100 hours at cap could have 1/3-1/2 the possible points.
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09/23/2013 05:10 PMPosted by silverfire
am trying to point out that the new system doesn't indicate how much experience a player has on a particular class.

And to put it more broadly, it doesn't reflect the amount of time spent period. It goes beyond a portrait or icon...a greater time investment should result in more power. Grinding paragon points on one class and then using them in another that you've barely played on just doesn't sit well with me.

agree... i have that thought too.
but...
smart loot 2.0 may be a solution for that... ideally....
the more u use a specific character to farm, the more chance you get better loot for upgrade... the stronger ur toon can be.

However, I want my decent class icon(s) back ;P
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1. add more affixes of crowd control to gears, say, big number chance of slow, freeze, stun, blind.....
those are really fun to have in the gears, the current affixes of crowd control on gears are just not good enough to be practically useful except a few ones on weapons.
2. remove randomness of key run or organs runs or the future materials runs, I suggest, we can do like this: with mp 0, you have to kill 10 groups of elite to guarantee a drop, with mp 1, you only need to kill 9 elites, with mp 2, 8 elites, .....so, people with bad gears, can spend time to get drops but still have the rewarding feeling playing the game. guaranteed drop is the key!
3. add skill on the gears that belongs to other classes. say, BB can use a gear to teleport or a DH can use a gear to Berserk, wouldn't that be cool?


1. This would be okay but would rather the gear be lvled and upgraded by a player through use and game play. Going to the mystic should be fun as well.

2. The scale is a little off maybe MP 0 would have to be 12 so that at MP10 you would have to kill one elite pack. Even then you would have a lot of players farming keys or parts and charging other players gold to join or stay in the party.

3. I have considered this a good idea but would rather the chance be changed on an off spec to something like 25% and maybe 75% to main class.
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09/23/2013 02:30 PMPosted by Lylirra
So, on that note. For those of you who've voiced a dislike of the Paragon 2.0 mechanics quoted below, what kind of functionality would you prefer to see instead? (And most importantly, why would you prefer that functionality over the one currently being considered?)


It seems that you(Devs) are trying to limit min/max(no points in some categories/all points in other categories).

I am wondering WHY you would want to do that. Some of us WANT to min/max for various reasons.

These reasons :http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/10038873805?page=4
post # 74 I think.

Are you trying to increase Balance? If so why?

Edit coming: edited
Edited by sheltem#1166 on 9/23/2013 5:32 PM PDT
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Problem: Can re-spec points at any time (perhaps at cost) as many times as you wish. Now you have taken the "unique" out of the building of points all together and just made another version of the current skill/runes situation. Once a Barbarian hits level 60, he/she is the same as every other Barbarian at level 60. This is due to the simple fact that every level 60 Barbarian has access to the same skills and runes as every other Barbarian. The same will be true with Paragon Points. Every barbarian will have full access to the same stats which in itself isn't bad, but the choices made for allocating said points is meaningless at a "unique" stand point when everyone can be the same.



That isn't a problem unless you only get enjoyment out of your character by limiting everyone else's enjoyment of their characters.

It is simply false to say all 60 barbarians are the same merely by virtue of the possibility of respecing for the simple reason that one character can only have one spec at one time.

I have no idea why you would yearn for the prospect of having to click through three boring difficulty levels on a new char just to respec. Permanent point allocation was a major drawback of D2. Bringing it back wouldn't add any skill to the game, just more hassle.
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09/23/2013 05:04 PMPosted by LaughingMan
Solution: Paragon Points are permanent. You toss 10 points in Move Speed, those aren't going anywhere. Your choice NEEDS to matter. Choice doesn't mean anything when it can be changed at a whim. If there is to be a re-spec option, it needs to be limited, or at the very least it must be earned. An example of that would be every 100 Paragon levels earned, you gain a re-spec point per character. So if your Paragon lvl 354, you have 3 re-spec opportunities per character, this will also be added to newly made characters at any given time.


If they do not do this, Blizzard needs to find a solution where characters are unique beyond what gear they have. +1
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MVP - Diablo III (Hardcore)
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09/23/2013 02:30 PMPosted by Lylirra
So, on that note. For those of you who've voiced a dislike of the Paragon 2.0 mechanics quoted below, what kind of functionality would you prefer to see instead? (And most importantly, why would you prefer that functionality over the one currently being considered?)


Others have expressed this idea as well, but my biggest problem with the way this is being implemented (forcing points into the 4 categories) is that my barb ends up nerfed unless I've earned a really high Shared Paragon level before launch.

I'm losing 300 Strength, 200 Vit, 100 Dex, and 100 Int. But I only get to put back 125 of those stat points (and that's assuming that Shared Paragon-100 = Current single character p-100.) Sure, my character will benefit in other ways from the other 75 points, but I'm skeptical that for the average player, they will come out ahead, that is, their "main" character will still have 700 stats and 300% MF/GF worth of benefit from the other 75 points. And if the current cap of 50 points per stat stays as presented, my barb will NEVER get back his lost 300 Str, no matter how high his sPlevel goes.

09/23/2013 04:38 PMPosted by Lylirra
Under current design, yes. Using your example, if your account's Shared Paragon level is 100, all Normal characters on your account would have access to 100 Paragon points, even if they're not at max level (i.e. sub-60).


The whole self-found movement was based on doing things from scratch, yourself, without outside help. I don't like the idea of being able to twink newly-created characters. Players should need to reach level 50 or 60 before these points become available. Although the point assignment to lowbies would presumably be optional, it would be more meaningful to have to earn it. And anyway, level 50-60 (and playing through the quests yet another time to finish Hell) are already dreary enough. A huge stat boost at this point would be most welcome, I think.

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09/23/2013 05:04 PMPosted by LaughingMan
Your choice NEEDS to matter. Choice doesn't mean anything when it can be changed at a whim.


Why? Simply because you say so?

I hear this asserted an awful lot, but nobody asserting it has ever sat down and spelled out a logical argument for why it is so.

How about you just make a pact with yourself never to respec? What's that you say? You wouldn't be able to resist it? Oh, well, then doesn't that seem to indicate maybe it's something useful?

An example of that would be every 100 Paragon levels earned, you gain a re-spec point per character


Every 100 paragon levels? Are you kidding?

Look, some of us aren't teenagers any more. We actually have jobs, and families.
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09/23/2013 05:31 PMPosted by Ziden
Solution: Paragon Points are permanent. You toss 10 points in Move Speed, those aren't going anywhere. Your choice NEEDS to matter. Choice doesn't mean anything when it can be changed at a whim. If there is to be a re-spec option, it needs to be limited, or at the very least it must be earned. An example of that would be every 100 Paragon levels earned, you gain a re-spec point per character. So if your Paragon lvl 354, you have 3 re-spec opportunities per character, this will also be added to newly made characters at any given time.


If they do not do this, Blizzard needs to find a solution where characters are unique beyond what gear they have. +1


How on earth does permanence make your character "unique"? Anyone could build exactly the same character.

Was there only ONE player with a Hammerdin in D2?

Of course not. Then we'd be referring to him by his name, and not the name for his type of cookie-cutter build. Anyone could have one. Provided they click through the appropriate amount of levels following the appropriate cookie-cutter build.

You folks are blindly advocating more tedium, not geniune uniqueness.
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09/23/2013 05:32 PMPosted by Galx
it would be more meaningful to have to earn it.


You have earned it. The low level char has not earned it, but YOU have, and that goes along with paragon 2.0 rewarding the player instead of the character.

I can see why you might not like that idea, but it does fit into the new paragon philosophy.

I personally would prefer that ALL characters of ANY level would earn points individually in stead of having Paragon at all.

Question: would you prefer that high level characters cannot find gear to give to low level characters?

The sharing of Gear and points contributes to playing more that one char.
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Problem: Can re-spec points at any time (perhaps at cost) as many times as you wish. Now you have taken the "unique" out of the building of points all together and just made another version of the current skill/runes situation. Once a Barbarian hits level 60, he/she is the same as every other Barbarian at level 60. This is due to the simple fact that every level 60 Barbarian has access to the same skills and runes as every other Barbarian. The same will be true with Paragon Points. Every barbarian will have full access to the same stats which in itself isn't bad, but the choices made for allocating said points is meaningless at a "unique" stand point when everyone can be the same.



That isn't a problem unless you only get enjoyment out of your character by limiting everyone else's enjoyment of their characters.

It is simply false to say all 60 barbarians are the same merely by virtue of the possibility of respecing for the simple reason that one character can only have one spec at one time.

I have no idea why you would yearn for the prospect of having to click through three boring difficulty levels on a new char just to respec. Permanent point allocation was a major drawback of D2. Bringing it back wouldn't add any skill to the game, just more hassle.


I think you may have missed the point, or perhaps I didn't phrase well enough. My intention is not to limit anyone's enjoyment nor was permanent point allocation a major drawback in Diablo 2. In fact, permanent points in Diablo 2 enforced choice, build diversity and the push to create many other characters/alts. ALL level 60 barbarians have the same skils, the same runes, the same stats until gear is implemented. Gear has NOTHING to do with paragon points, skill points or Paragon 2.0 in any way which is what this thread is about. Which means every level 60 barbarian is identical to every other. As for gear, yes it does make each Barbarian different but only a a very minute level that equates to next to nothing. One WW barb having a better weapon, higher crit or w/e then another WW barb is hardly "unique". Though, if one had points to make his WW hit harder while the other made his WW last longer...now we are getting somewhere. Also, I never stated you could have only one re-spec. In fact, I gave a couple reasons for multipul re-spec chances. Lastly, going through three difficulty levels is again, nothing to do with Paragon 2.0 but for arguments sake I'll run with this one too. In Diablo 2 the permanent point allocation along with enhancing skills themselves with said points made making new characters and watching them grow as you play enjoyable. If this was not so for you, then Diablo 2 or games of the like simply are not for you. That said, Diablo 3 is using the same points to allocate into stats rather then skills and all of this done AFTER your runs through three difficulty runs which is a problem. My solutions to how points can enhance skills and/or runes themselves may solve this issue though nothing can change the FACT that you must run 3 difficulties no matter matter what when you make a new character. I hope that brings out a better understanding for you.
Edited by PalmtopTiger#1832 on 9/23/2013 6:02 PM PDT
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09/23/2013 05:37 PMPosted by Beavis
Your choice NEEDS to matter. Choice doesn't mean anything when it can be changed at a whim.


Why? Simply because you say so?

I hear this asserted an awful lot, but nobody asserting it has ever sat down and spelled out a logical argument for why it is so.

How about you just make a pact with yourself never to respec? What's that you say? You wouldn't be able to resist it? Oh, well, then doesn't that seem to indicate maybe it's something useful?

An example of that would be every 100 Paragon levels earned, you gain a re-spec point per character


Every 100 paragon levels? Are you kidding?

Look, some of us aren't teenagers any more. We actually have jobs, and families.


Who said it is so because I said so? Last I checked I'm not God or anything of the like...
You hear this asserted an awful lot yet you make no counter offer to the situation...you do however complain a lot.
Why should anyone "never" re-spec? There should be chances to re-spec for the chance to fix a self imposed mistake if nothing else...where are you getting your information?
Freak out over an example much? "An EXAMPLE of that would be every 100 Paragon levels earned...". This could easily be every 10 levels or w/e Blizzard and the players believe is needed.
As for that weak last comment....I have a job and am 35. My play time is limited and I care deeply about the games I play and the time I am able to invest in them. I wish you did too before you start spouting nonsense over ideas and examples as if they were facts stated by Blizzard.
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That isn't a problem unless you only get enjoyment out of your character by limiting everyone else's enjoyment of their characters.

It is simply false to say all 60 barbarians are the same merely by virtue of the possibility of respecing for the simple reason that one character can only have one spec at one time.

I have no idea why you would yearn for the prospect of having to click through three boring difficulty levels on a new char just to respec. Permanent point allocation was a major drawback of D2. Bringing it back wouldn't add any skill to the game, just more hassle.


I think you may have mised the point, or perhaps I didn't phrase well enough. My intention is not to limit anyone's enjoyment nor was permanent point allocation a major drawback in Diablo 2. In fact, permanent points in Diablo 2 enforced choice, build diversity and the push to create many other characters/alts. ALL level 60 barbarians have the same skils, the same runes, the same stats until gear is implemented. Gear has NOTHING to do with paragon points, skill points or Paragon 2.0 in any way which is what this thread is about. Which means every level 60 barbarian is identical to every other. As for gear, yes it does make each Barbarian different but only a a very minute level that equates to next to nothing. One WW barb having a better weapon, higher crit or w/e then another WW barb is hardly "unique". Though, if one had points to make his WW hit harder while the other made his WW last longer...now we are getting somewhere. Also, I never stated you could have only one re-spec. In fact, I gave a couple reasons for multipul re-spec chances. Lastly, going through three difficulty levels is again, nothing to do with Paragon 2.0 but for arguments sake I'll run with this one too. In Diablo 2 the permanent point allocation along with enhancing skills themselves with said points made making new characters and watching them grow as you play enjoyable. If this was not so for you, then Diablo 2 or games of the like simply are not for you. That said, Diablo 3 is using the same points to allocate into stats rather then skills and all of this done AFTER your runs through three difficulty runs which is a problem. My solutions to how points can enhance skills and/or runes themselves may solve this issue though nothing can change the FACT that you must run 3 difficulties no matter matter what when you make a new character. I hope that brings out a better understanding for you.


You definitely missed my points completely and utterly.

You are complaining that your character is not unique unless respecing paragon points either does not happen, or is extremely rare (every 100 plvls). Your character would not be unique even if respecing were impossible. Anyone could build an identical character. The only difference would be that instead of respec'ing, they would have to make a new character click through to 70....then assign their paragon points the way you do.

That isn't uniqueness.

At the end of the day, people aren't going to be respecing mid-game. Who is going to wait around for them instead of kicking them? As it is, people don't even change their skills mid-game because it wipes NV stacks, which is a miniscule annoyance compared to what you advocate.

How many times, really, do you run into the same people in multiplayer games that you join randomly?

Does it somehow affect YOUR gameplay that someone you were in a party with a week ago now has a different paragon point allocation? Will you steam in rage that they did not have to create a new char and click through 70 levels to assign their points differently? Will it ruin your enjoyment of the game to know that I, playing single player almost entirely, maybe be able to change my mind and respect my paragon points?

You say "My intention is not to limit anyone's enjoyment nor was permanent point allocation a major drawback in Diablo 2. In fact, permanent points in Diablo 2 enforced choice, build diversity and the push to create many other characters/alts."

But again, that's just you saying it. Permanent point allocation was a major drawback in Diablo 2 from my perspective. It "enforced" choice to the extent that if you made choices that you later didn't like, you had to make another character and start mindlessly clicking through all the difficulties again. At least there were only 3....

If a game needs to slap people with tedium to "enforce choice", it doesn't have much going for it to begin with.

Worse, you seem to be assuming that people actually have the time (and space on their character rosters - hello, we only have 10 right now?) to create endless variations of alts ....

They don't. They have jobs. They have families. They don't live in mommy's basement. What you demand would mean seriously restricted access to game content for the vast majority of players.

Since we do not have skill points as we did in D2, it wouldn't be quite as big of a deal, but it still would be a pointless pain.

09/23/2013 05:50 PMPosted by LaughingMan
In Diablo 2 the permanent point allocation along with enhancing skills themselves with said points made making new characters and watching them grow as you play enjoyable. If this was not so for you, then Diablo 2 or games of the like simply are not for you.


Oh okk, then maybe Diablo 3 or games of the like simply are not for you.

Satisfying answer, right?

Don't be so quick to assume that everyone who played Diablo II feels the same way that you did about permanent skill point allocation. Maybe the people who played it for 10 years, but those were the extreme minority.

Again: Make a personal rule for yourself. Do not respec paragon points on your characters. If it's so important to you, this should not be a problem.
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I wish you did too before you start spouting nonsense over ideas and examples as if they were facts stated by Blizzard.


You seem to be confused. I am calling your ideas bad ideas. I am not treating them as facts stated by Blizzard.
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09/23/2013 06:01 PMPosted by LaughingMan
I care deeply about the games I play


Ok, well you may consider that a further mistake you are making is that Blizzard is catering to a wider audience.

In the limited time I have, I either read, play one of a few games, or watch something with the wife. Your suggestion would mean that I am more or less permanently locked into one single paragon point allocation for at least a year or two at a time, no matter what changes and nerfs happen to the respective classes and things they rely on (my highest in p52). It would be a major drawback to me for that reason.

The people demanding permanence, or quasi-permanence as you do, typically are the fanatical types who put corporate law hours into a single game......
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Tell you what. I can vouch for your suggestion IF, and only if, it applies only to ladder characters. Their paragon choices are fixed until the new season starts and they're moved non-ladder.

I simply see no reason to saddle anyone else with it because, again, permanence did nothing but annoy me in D2 (and contribute to eventually stop playing) and I can't see that it will add anything if applied to plvl points - even if you can respec every 100....
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Oh, and as for the round robin allocation style, I think it should stay as is. It will lead to much more meaningful choices this way as each category is pretty equal in their buffs. Otherwise it's not a choice because most points will be spent in one single stat that is the most powerful.I think opening them up is a bad idea personally. Otherwise you have to nerf those other stats to be equal.


When I first hear about Paragon 2.0 I thought, "Oh great(sarcastically), now we will have Trifecta points."

What is bad is the idea that there IS one single stat that is the most powerful (or 3 of them).
Problem is Compounded by the fact that "trifecta" is the most powerful stat/s for all classes and all builds.

The "round robin allocation" bandaids the problem instead of fixing it by giving us stats that could compete with trifecta.
Edited by sheltem#1166 on 9/23/2013 6:28 PM PDT
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Because the journey should also be fun not just endgame grind.


Agree completely, but I doubt we will ever get a system where you can actually begin to build characters from level 1. Oh well.

As far as the planned paragon system, could we please instead get options to invest in that are meaningful to the way we play? Maybe instead of what we are offered now, offer actual build and play-style complimenting choices? Like +damage w/ 2h weapon, or +att speed for dual wield, or +block with a shield, or +fire damage, +poison damage, etc. etc.. Right now the choices being offered don't seem interesting at all.
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MVP
09/23/2013 06:24 PMPosted by sheltem
Oh, and as for the round robin allocation style, I think it should stay as is. It will lead to much more meaningful choices this way as each category is pretty equal in their buffs. Otherwise it's not a choice because most points will be spent in one single stat that is the most powerful.I think opening them up is a bad idea personally. Otherwise you have to nerf those other stats to be equal.


When I first hear about Paragon 2.0 I thought, "Oh great(sarcastically), now we will have Trifecta points."

What is bad is the idea that there IS one single stat that is the most powerful (or 3 of them).
Problem is Compounded by the fact that "trifecta" is the most powerful stat/s for all classes and all builds.

The "round robin allocation" bandaids the problem instead of fixing it by giving us stats that could compete with trifecta.

How would you suggest "cauterizing the wound" so to speak?

This is personally why I like the round robin allocation style. It means I don't have to fret because I may want a few points in movement speed without gimping myself later on. Personally, I don't want to have to resort to having caps on all stats.

It's pretty meaningful to have to choose between Extra Resource, Resource Regen, Movement Speed or Pick Up Radius, but when I can choose between one of those OR IAS, CHC, or CHD, it becomes a pretty clear choice that I should be maxing the trifecta first.

This is one case where I hope Blizzard doesn't go back on their original design. I don't want to see another mistake like the monster streaming go through just because it was popular at the time only to be outed as a detriment a few months down the road. It's best to leave it as it is for now, and if it doesn't end up working change it later. Right now it will actually lead to more meaningful choices.
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