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i talked about this almost a month ago, about pace of game. glad to hear and and know the dev team is working on this. the over all experience of the game was great at start of d3 on hardcore with gold ah and all that. that post was over here if any one cares to dig into this deeper about the diablo 3 experience. im post 147 on page 8.. http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9792970234?page=1
Considering the combat system they had in place before they made it so you could hack and slash in your H&S dungeon crawler, I'd say it's a safe bet that is exactly what they're intending to do.
Well, we now know that the coming changes include gameplay rebalancing, and will be more than just a spreadsheet exercise, which could be very good.
Does this mean y'all are finally going to fix Dodge? 'Cuz it kinda sucks, currently.
I will say that the first line of defense is reducing the rate at which players heal. After we pull in the rate of healing, next we analyze the patterns in which monsters deal damage. Ultimately, defensive stats will play a role in all of this. If some life regeneration, damage mitigation or (gasp) life on hit lets me play a little more aggressively, that's a good thing.
I guess that explains why all the Life Steal is being removed from the skill matrix.
Edit: Weird. Quoted Wyatt both times, and one came up blue while the other didn't.
Edited by Waitubold#1127 on 9/25/2013 5:53 PM PDT
This is what I don't understand - wasn't D2 pve just face tanking too? Granted, sorc/hammerdin/javazons didnt have to facetank because they could clear entire screens in seconds without being hit 99% of the time, but what was wrong with that formula (except for the fact that, you know, you could actually dodge attacks if the animation wasnt finisehd)
Look at D2 and see how they handled combat, you'll probably learn something from a developers perspective from what was truly an exciting game to play. You could try bringing back faster hit recovery to add some depth to your combat experience. D3 feels like too much of a shooter these days.
IAS goes back to being the most important stat because D3 has been designed too much like a shooter. Get it?
And lol at the Earthbound style HP suggestion.
"Just so you know, it is possible to get something like 95% Damage Reduction with the current formulas.
1,000 AR and 10,000 Armor = ~95% Damage reduction.
1 - ((1 - (1000 / ((5 * 60) + 1000)) * (1 - (10000 / ((50 * 60) + 1000))) = ~95%
Honestly, their Armor and Resistance calculations are fine."
And normal enemies still do 5-15k per enemy per hit on MP 10.
There's a guy somewhere in this thread who has 3.5k life regen on his Wizard. Well, I can go in MP >6< now and an elite will pop me for 17k with a regular attack. If I had his regen it'd take 5 seconds to counter 1 hit. Enemies attack a lot faster than that, especially if it's something like a Dark Cultist (incidentally, fast attackers have damage auras more than actual attacks... go anywhere near them, you get hit, often results in instant death if there's a decent number of them)
Another thing, lifesteal is only powerful because of the AoE spam focus. Don't believe me, try high MP Act 4 with lifesteal, you'll die anyways.
If you do 1 million damage and have 3% lifesteal, 3% > 0.6% after Inferno penalty > 6k healing = about half of one normal enemy hit on MP 10. Normal enemies have about... 2 million HP on MP 10. Result? If an enemy hits you once then dies you're breaking even. That's a better deal than say... life on kill which is a losing trade even on MP >1< if you're getting hit at all, but it's only keeping people alive because they have a target rich environment. Just making single target dps situations actually relevant is a lifesteal nerf.
1. "I'd like to see a game where a clever player can handle a higher Monster Power by reducing incoming damage through good play"
after reading some posts, I still think my previous post will actually be a good solution.... lol
ok lets forget about roll for now.. well actually, the mechanism is already in place for all characters
barb - leap
wiz - teleport
dh - vault
wd - spirit walk
monk - dash strike
1. some have absurd cooldown
2. some have absurd cost
3. they take up a skill slot
so if you don't want to incorporate the roll that consoles have, maybe we can just
1. reduce the cooldowns of these skills to acceptable levels
2, reduce the cost
3. make them permanent, maybe assign it to hotkey "W"
4. reduce the distance travelled to not make it overpowered and overly abused
or you can just add roll
oh and I just thought of something for the crusader.. instead of rolling, pressing the "roll" key will make him raise his shield and actually block.. to remove confusion with the current block system, let's call it parry
Edited by Jason#1893 on 9/25/2013 6:52 PM PDT
Being at 50% health should mean you're somewhat in danger and you should play it safe, but as long as you do you should be fine. These are all concepts that make intuitive sense. Unfortunately, they are not at all true in the current Diablo environment.
I don't generally agree with either of these statements frankly;
take my barb, he's got decent defenses but my choice of playstyle (no fury generator) and DPS over HUGE HP/mitigation means I need to watch heath and fury constantly. I've chosen this since it DOES mean I need to be aware of resources and health and I _DO_ adapt to hairy situations by tactics.
I've never had more fun that when I _DO_ need to stop mindlessly killing and needing to pay attention!! In the end it's far more fun and effective.
Now, takeaway LS from REND for instance; I'm dead meat. I will NOT find this change 'FUN'. Given that you will provide some 'life return on fury spent' means I must continue to gen/de-gen fury all the time (non stop attack), so I think this might limit tactics somewhat and return to 'non stop killing' for the sake of life return. Now, life regen MIGHT offset, but I've done many 'life regen gearing' before and it's NOT THAT EFFECTIVE since it doe NOT provide enough 'burst healing'.
I know you guys have very complex issues to address and I hope you REALLY TEST these under ALL types of builds / abilities, not just a few that you've chosen to 'tweak' for us, such as WotB.
Best of luck, you have a tough, tough job I don't envy :/
I think by making the most ideal loot harder to come by (no auction house) you guys are taking a big step in the right direction to start with. Reducing healing will be a step in the right direction. I think making death only cost gold and not have a time related punishment is an issue. If you have 500k dps but can't stay alive for more than 20 seconds your efficiency is bad. Perhaps less than 6 stats on the best gear is a good idea too. 1 stat on whites, 2 on blues, 3 on rares, and 3 plus a "game changing intangible" on legendaries. Increase the amount of each stat rolled in a multiplicative way with MP, never to exceed a cap for each difficulty (Inferno always has better gear than Hell.)
Make MP10 almost impossible. There is nothing wrong with having someone 4 years down the road with nothing to do but play Diablo put up youtube videos getting through MP10, and there is nothing wrong with people pwning MP 3 because it's most efficient and never getting better gear than those crazy !@#$%^-s who farm MP7 in hardcore.
Edit: Make MP10 almost impossible and then double it.
Edited by Zenakis#1792 on 9/25/2013 9:16 PM PDT
You assume we're getting our proc coefficients back. If so, yay. If not (Demon Hunters are still scowling over this), then we're screwed. For a no LS situation, the proc coefficients must all be given back to at least their values at launch or else it'll be a disaster Droth.
This is one of the "hidden mechanics" that really pissed players off and still does. It's why LoH is no longer viable for most builds right now - the coefficients got nerfed or outright removed. They need to be a flat value across all abilities in RoS or else what will happen is the exact same thing we have today: few builds are viable because those abilities with low proc coefficients or those without any at all just won't be used as they leave players taking far more damage than they can even hope to recoup. That's why nearly every build you see in common use today is chock full of high coefficient abilities or abilities that hit many monsters at once to at least be pretty much guaranteed to go off.
@Wyatt: Talk is cheap. I mean no offense with that, honestly, but you're going to have to commit to some rather radical changes to at least one of the offensive stats (CHD) to make this a reality. If you don't cap it, and you leave Reflects Damage in the game, it won't work, assuming no Life Steal.
You can't get rid of the yo-yo effect unless you get rid of the player side of the equation as well and that's CHD. And you're going to have to give back those coefficients you destroyed solely to make LoH non-viable soon after launch.
You'll also need to do this if there is any hope at all of having an MP where monster health doesn't scale in to the ludicrosity we have now. Nobody likes battles of attrition, and that's what we have now. Not only are the affixes that CC the player just outright horrible and the cause of much of the binary death problem, but the battles just last so long it's all really nothing more than a gigantic gear check. Kind of like your Reflects Damage + Enrage Timer combination. I don't know who thought it was a good idea to combine two diametrically opposing affixes like these, but it was a horrible design decision and helped to foster the era of gear checks we've been living in ever since.
Now, if you can accomplish all of the changes I've listed and give us a fun game from it, I'll dance up and down for joy and sing your praises. But thus far I've not seen that the developers are willing to bite the bullet on issues like this just like the WoW developers won't give up their failed notion that not making abilities work differently on players across the board is ever going to allow them to balance PvP.
If I sound jaded it's because I am jaded. I've had nothing but disappointment so far with this game throughout all of the "talk". It's hard to be positive when discussions like this have ended in a "Lucy takes the football away from Charlie Brown just as he goes to kick it" scenario each time. I don't want to be burned yet again, I really don't.
So the real question here is: Are you willing to commit to the changes necessary to actually implement this pie in the sky gameplay environment you're telling us is your vision now?
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Reading this post, Mr. Cheng, and a previous post if I recall correctly of something similar you touched on prior to this one, but especially this post, I can't shake the feeling by reading this that if combat is slowed down too much, this will turn into WoW combat. For all this is good and holy, please don't do this. That's what the other game is for.
We already have cooldowns. This is an action role playing game. An action RPG. I wanna say this one more time, so it sinks in, and I don't mean this disrespectfully, but rather out of concern. This is an ARPG. NOT AN MMO!!! Now that that's out of the way-
The big draw for me IS the combat. The fast paced, on your toes, flashy combat. I don't think the Diablo 2 vets (not the WoW vets, this isn't your part of the show right now) would want the combat to turn into WoW raiding style combat. This is Diablo. So Mr. Cheng, and to the rest of the Dev team, yes, I'm stoked for the expansion, but please, do us all a favor, and don't hit the brakes too hard on the combat pacing. I think everyone's SICK of "nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf." And by "everyone," that means alot more people than the dev team that keeps cramming down our throats what we're demanded to accept, as "fun."
In, before lock.
Cant agree more.
But, when talking about micro in D3...I do remember long ago, when i saw a skelton archer shooting an arrow towards me in the vault of assassins, i tried my best to avoid it...and visually, i actually did it.
However i was hit and dead..
I do understand it's probably about the internet lagging...but some also said my witch doctor had to be on a diet, maybe.
You misunderstand me; I like being able to hack and slash through endless piles of monsters. That's fun, and enjoyable, and largely what I expect from a Diablo game. That said, however, if you just insta-kill them then it feels like the enemies aren't worth the mouse click because they're so weak. At least let them stand up to a blow or two to get some resistance, otherwise it just doesn't feel like you're fighting the armies of hell.
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