Diablo® III

Call to Arms

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/10039514450#5

So this post got buried on the blue tracker pretty quickly. It's very interesting and perhaps a bit disturbing. Many systems in the game now run counter to 'tactical' or strategic play, so these comment by Wyatt could possible be a fundamental shift in the feel of the game.

There are some good comments there already, but I think there are some very knowledgeable people here in the barb forums that should opine on this topic.

Go post!
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I saw it when it got posted. I was thinking of posting a link, but I didn't feel like looking at the qq that it'd surely cause here lol.

There's not much he's saying that anyone can argue with, but yes, it definitely looks like they want to change the feel of the game completely.

In my opinion, lifesteal pretty much needs to go, and ground effects shouldn't be as trivial as they are now, but I wouldn't want to see the pace of the game slowed down to a snail's pace either.
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There's also the gap between elite packs and thrash. If you're geared well enough to fight trash elite packs, thrash mobs are gonna be a piece of cake (except trees, charging beasts, and a few others). They should reduce that gap so that difficulty relies on which type of monster you're fighting rather than if it's an elite pack or not.

For example in D2, the elite packs were more powerful than the normal mobs, but they weren't on a completely different scale like they are in D3.
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His comments about poison makes me wonder if he's intending to move back to a D2 playstyle, where it would slowly drain your life for a long time. Sometimes you could get away with doing nothing, sometimes you'd have to quaff a potion. It wouldn't kill you in a few seconds, but it was something you had to be aware of, and consider whether to take action. And poison wasn't a pool you could move out of, once you were poisoned moving wouldn't stop it. I must say I prefer the 'pools on the ground' method.
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These days, I really don´t understand you silver. On one hand you play the most broken builds (WW barb although you hide behind HotA because you hate WW so much and Archon which is just 1 button), on the other you keep saying how you don´t want them to be around etc. I mean, why do you mass laser stuff in the first place if you hate those playstyles so much? Enlighten me. And please tell me a different reason than "because they´re the most efficient".

Seriously, I don´t want us to get back to 12K armor, 10K dps, spamming Revenge and using Furious Charge to dodge frozen and then run around like a chicken, waiting for the cooldowns on Ignore Pain and stuff. Do you remember how everyone was using a Shield, 3 defensive passives and our only spammable damage dealing skill was Sidearm? I really can´t believe I actually played like that for so long, but I do remember how awful and hopeless it felt.

I won´t do this again, I swear. Sadly, every considered change so far seems to point in that direction. No ToC, no ITF, no full movement speed on WW, no Life Steal. You don´t have to be a genius to see that they want to slooooow down everything again.

Call me qq how often you like, but I want to feel overpowered and mow down hordes of monsters like I do now. Note that I won´t defend WW/RLTW as if my life depended on it and I´d have no trouble toning them down in a reasonable way if it´s really so impossible to improve the awful skills, but I say no thank you to walking around like a snail, which is the worst kind of waste of time and boring, only rivaled by running away like a wuss from monsters and occasionally chipping away at their health.

I´d honestly be more thankful for base movement speed to be like when you activate a fleeting shrine at the very least over stuff like more and better drops.

Btw. 2H no generator ToC/WW/RLTW in VotA at my glassy level of gear is by far the most strategic gameplay in the game. Say whatever you want, but it requires serious Fury management and I can´t just stand on top of every ... on the floor like you almighty guys can, I WW out of triple whirling Magewraiths, WW in-between 8 laser beams, dodge various field effects all while watching my health globe and Fury globe.

There were some very good posts about how it´s impossible to have a tactical battle with the kind of elite affixes there are, because they make you lose control of your character and you can´t do a thing. Well, unless you use specific limited skills that are not useful 95% of the time and often have cooldowns.

Really, if they want to incorporate some tactics, just give us a dodge button, but don´t go trying to change an action rpg into something else it´s not supposed to be. I like to play D3 because I can slay enemies in various flashy ways, be it WW, Rend, HotA, Seismic Slam (hell, Slam spam is by far the most satisfying gameplay for me), Meteors and Blizzards, Firebats or poison clouds, shooting exploding arrows and grenades or creating big bells outta nowhere and see monsters flying around the screen...it´s fun for me and helps me relax.

WW and Strafe are among the very few options in the game that let you be "tactical" on a pretty constant basis. Other than that, it´s all facetank. It´s not my fault that there are so many easy fixes to so many issues that the game has but it takes forever to implement them.

Also, I´d like to see a single life gain mechanics that would be advantageous for slow attack speed...

Now excuse me, I´ll go enjoy the current gameplay that will be deleted in a couple of months.

EDIT: Seems like I´m not alone in my opinion that D3 should simply give us the enjoyment of destroying hordes of monsters in the most flashy and ridiculous ways possible at a fast pace. The last few pages of that thread give me hope, at least from the community side of things. Well, the community has mostly shown to know what´s good for the game, so that never was the problem.

The frustrating stuff is when the devs finally listen and try to implement some sort of customization and point allocation, but of course they try to mess up even something as simple as that by splitting the points into 4 categories and basically limiting or forcing your choice...
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 9/26/2013 2:00 PM PDT
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09/26/2013 12:37 PMPosted by Nubtro
These days, I really don´t understand you silver. On one hand you play the most broken builds (WW barb although you hide behind HotA because you hate WW so much and Archon which is just 1 button), on the other you keep saying how you don´t want them to be around etc. I mean, why do you mass laser stuff in the first place if you hate those playstyles so much? Enlighten me. And please tell me a different reason than "because they´re the most efficient".

You know what, I've been thinking about this too esp as I've been trying to play wd and ranting to practically everyone on my friends list about what a pain it is because I can't play on cruise control like I'm used to with barb and wizard. Yeah, partially I'm a gigantic hypocrite, but partially it's because I understand that the easiest/best builds aren't too good for the health and longevity of the game.

I haven't actually played on my barb at all for the past couple of weeks. I only brought her into action yesterday to see RAiN showing me how gg his wd is. I tried for a while to drop ww altogether. With dual wield, doing so is no problem for me. But I'm a Skorn guy and permawrathing through vota without ww on Skorn is too difficult, so it stays. The major distinction between your playstyle and mine is that I use sprint and ww as auxiliary skills for fury generation and mobility, but HotA as the main source of damage. Nothing wrong with yours, but there is a big distinction even though the builds on paper look so similar.

I'll say one thing to preface this. The most fun I've ever had in this game was 1.00-1.02 era demon hunter were absolutely everything one-shotted me. A part of that was because all my real life friends played at the time too and we'd get on skype or vent and have a good laugh while spending minutes wiping on an elite pack in act 2. The chaos and risk of death was a blast. It was just insanely hard in every way no matter what class you played and I loved it. Most people hated it, but I loved it.

Now, obviously, things should be a total 180 of that in end-game, but it's still a fun and I'd say necessary part of the experience IMHO.

I switched to barb in a sort of weird spot. I made a small fortune flipping demon hunter weapons, so I started out unusually strong. I did the whole frenzy/revenge thing, but my barb was still pretty powerful. I remember going into an act 2 public game on belial, and beating his !@# into a pulp, with my wizard and dh party mates wondering where all the DPS was coming from and then crapping their pants upon seeing my 85k DPS S&B barb. (hail to the king baby).

I killed elites in about 30-40 seconds in classic inferno. If I popped wrath:insanity, they'd almost always die within the 15 second window that it was up in. So I'm sort of a fraud in that I never felt the pain you guys felt with really low-tier gear. My barb felt pretty good to play even back then. Not cruising through the map the way we do now, but it felt good. Definitely way stronger than my DH, which was also pretty good. (Cleared inferno diablo around June 15th 2012, before the first major nerf) The only issue was a lack of mobility but that's because I was too stupid to use sprint at the time. When I ran into a frozen pack, I'd pop wrath insanity. If I encountered a second one before I could use it again, I'd either wait it or out skip it, but other than frozen, I don't remember any pack really feeling hopeless. I remember desecrator being dangerous enough that I'd try to step out of it, as I'd steadily lose health while standing in it, but it wouldn't insta-gib me either. I think this is okay.

TBH, it's probably pretty similar to what you go through with your glass cannon barb currently on high MP's. It's partly also why you probably are a bit more sensitive about these sorts of changes. The problem is, most people don't decide to play like you do. The alternative, of giving up a little bit of DPS, and making the game more comfortable to play is just far more sensible. Dying to anything really bugs me, and if I'm capable of bumping my defenses on gear without majorly sacrificing damage, I'll do it. The other big reason is that I really appreciate balance as far as gearing goes. It's a different type of challenge to cram in 1m EHP, 200k unbuffed with 7 slots of IAS. (though that challenge got lessened dramatically for me thanks to some very generous friends) It's not something that's easy to hit even with a big budget, and its something that takes compromises in the area of raw damage. I think the distinction is, in classic inferno, even if you were decked out in defense, you still had that strategic feel. These days it's pretty straightforward to gear around it. Too straightforward.

Archon- it's my absolute favorite way to play the game. It's by far more fun for me to play than any other build on any other class, by a wide margin. I might even make two more paragon 100 wizards through it before the patch hits... at least one more is imminent, I just love playing it too much. I've stopped using energy armor unlike most people, so my wizard can die easily to stuff if I'm careless. What makes it fun is that the level of power that I feel seems just right. If I encounter an elite pack with dangerous affixes, I will have to attack at a distance. But even at a distance, I still deal a good amount of damage. There's kiting involved, but its a good kind of kiting. If I let myself get frozen and sliced by an arcane, I'll die, but I can avoid getting frozen easily while still dealing damage. At the same time, even though I'm not invincible, I can kill stuff really quickly. Because an archon wizard is a very strong ranged character, it doesn't have the issue that a barb without wotb has of losing control of the character up against bad affixes.

Barb is a lot more binary. Once you're geared up properly, you go and facetank everything. Since you're melee, your options are either facetank, or waste time not attacking by kiting, (ww'ing through danger might as well count as facetanking) If you're not geared up, generally you back down the monster power level until you are geared enough to facetank everything. There's not much middle ground. I have a solution to this, but it's a problem that can't be ignored.

Archon needs to be nerfed IMO for pretty much the same reasons that barb needs to be though. The gearing is way too linear. With archon, practically nothing matters but DPS, and how you get there doesn't even matter. All you need to do is kill stuff fast enough, and you get rewarded with a tremendous defense buff, allowing you to gear in a very slanted manner. And forget about any "special" gear affixes. Nothing costs any resource in archon, so there's no need to worry about it. And the builds themselves can hardly even be called builds. There's just the single skill, archon, with the rest being supporting buffs, which do nothing but bump DPS (and EHP if you desire) without any change to gameplay experience. You could just put archon on your skill bar, leave literally everything else empty, and still do perfectly fine in higher MP's as long as you're geared enough. Yeah, I love playing it, but I'm not narrow-minded enough to ignore that that's a huge problem.
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09/26/2013 12:37 PMPosted by Nubtro
Seriously, I don´t want us to get back to 12K armor, 10K dps, spamming Revenge and using Furious Charge to dodge frozen and then run around like a chicken, waiting for the cooldowns on Ignore Pain and stuff. Do you remember how everyone was using a Shield, 3 defensive passives and our only spammable damage dealing skill was Sidearm? I really can´t believe I actually played like that for so long, but I do remember how awful and hopeless it felt.

Hey, I had over 20k dps. Just.

Going back to those days would only be a problem for those current players who know what it's like to permawrath, to ww around trouble, and to be able to hota everything into the dust. In the 'bad old days' I didn't see a problem with a slow grind. It was the only way one could progress, and I knew no alternative.

Negative viewpoint - if Blizz sell 10m copies of RoS, but piss off the 100k current users who've geared their barbs well and enjoy a fast-paced game, would they be concerned?

Positive viewpoint - I see the possibility of some good, but different, barb synergies in RoS. Being able to draw in everything within 45 yards should permit some serious fury gen and quick mass kills.
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Nice write-up silver but my point still stands. You enjoy playing Archon and it´s very clear from your post, mainly because it´s fun for you. You like feeling overpowered and evaporate hordes with beamz lol. So, how is having fun a bad thing?

I mean, isn´t that the main reason why we play games, to have fun?

09/26/2013 02:10 PMPosted by gooball
Positive viewpoint - I see the possibility of some good, but different, barb synergies in RoS. Being able to draw in everything within 45 yards should permit some serious fury gen and quick mass kills.


I can´t believe people keep bringing this one up all the time. That would be more broken than ToC/ITF and Hurricane together and invalidate so many pulling skills.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 9/26/2013 2:17 PM PDT
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Nice write-up silver but my point still stands. You enjoy playing Archon and it´s very clear from your post, mainly because it´s fun for you. You like feeling overpowered and evaporate hordes with beamz lol. So, how is having fun a bad thing?

I mean, isn´t that the main reason why we play games, to have fun?

Positive viewpoint - I see the possibility of some good, but different, barb synergies in RoS. Being able to draw in everything within 45 yards should permit some serious fury gen and quick mass kills.


I can´t believe people keep bringing this one up all the time. That would be more broken than ToC/ITF and Hurricane together and invalidate so many pulling skills.

But do take note that a big part of why I like it is also because it forces me to care about elite affixes to just the right degree. (IMO) If there's no risk of dying, it stops being fun too. You should feel strong, but not strong to the point where nothing matters. And if I switch to ww/rend/opks on my barb, that's pretty much what happens. Same for CM wizard (which I downright dislike playing and do so only to provide utility to a group)

As far as the new version of hurricane goes, as has been brought up many times, it looks like this gather and slaughter style is what blizzard is trying to promote, along with making the group dynamic better. I don't know if they'll succeed or not, but it seems to be the intent.
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I honestly don't understand why the developers are constantly trying to mold the game into "something else". People enjoyed D2 because you can rampage through the map slaughtering packs and packs of monsters with ease while getting loots. The game was NEVER about player skills, and it has always been about loots. All these added balancing and making skills less efficient will not make this game anymore appealing.

In other words, don't turn this into GW2.
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09/26/2013 02:26 PMPosted by silverfire
But do take note that a big part of why I like it is also because it forces me to care about elite affixes to just the right degree. (IMO) If there's no risk of dying, it stops being fun too. You should feel strong, but not strong to the point where nothing matters. And if I switch to ww/rend/opks on my barb, that's pretty much what happens.

Hehe got you there. Just limit the CC immunity duration of WotB or outright take it away and get rid of innate damage reduction. Wait, I guess the "delete" skill button is simpler than that, oh well...

Anyway, if there´s one thing they did right, it´s the flashy ways to destroy monsters. Instead of building up on that, they start to undermine even stuff that they did well like the few skill synergies in the game.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 9/26/2013 2:52 PM PDT
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It's not like I'm like the devs lackey and I think everything they're doing is perfect...far from it, but overall, I think their philosophy moving forward will make the game better. It's probably going to be pretty rocky at first though.
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I honestly don't understand why the developers are constantly trying to mold the game into "something else". People enjoyed D2 because you can rampage through the map slaughtering packs and packs of monsters with ease while getting loots. The game was NEVER about player skills, and it has always been about loots. All these added balancing and making skills less efficient will not make this game anymore appealing.

In other words, don't turn this into GW2.


I agree, if anybody here has their Prince 2 or PMBOK qualifications you may look at all these changes, loot 2.0 and some other previous large scale patches and ask why? With most large scale projects there certainly is a post implementation review, and where possible, improvement phase based on lessons learnt. However, there is also a strong across the board rule that any redevelopment of a current project past 30ish% (there are different standards that vary this percentage from 25-35%) means you are basically wasting cash (overcapitalising and are too restricted to a current system etc etc) and therefore should be re-scoping for a new project, or in this case, D4. As they own the IP for the gaming engine which certainly looks pretty and in my opinion is the best thing going for D3, I think they would be better off pouring these ideas into a D4 testing and evaluation stage along with developing new content. I honestly don’t know how an off the shelf purchase game which requires no on-going subscription fee can be paying for all of these changes.

Cheers
CC123
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New Datamined Patch - Class Changes, Passive Effects, Character slots, Stat caps, Quests, and MUCH more @ http://www.diablofans.com/

Silverfire gets his snailing game he wanted so badly..

Critical Hit Chance - *You may have a maximum of +40.00% Critical Hit Chance from items.
Block Chance - *You may have a maximum of 75.00% Block Chance.
Critical Hit Damage - *You may have a maximum of +250.00% Critical Hit Damage from items.
Movement Speed - *You may have a maximum of +25.00% movement speed from items
Gold Find - *You may have a maximum of +300.00% Gold Find.
Magic Find - *This increase is diminished for rare and legendary and set items.
Magic Find - *You may have a maximum of +300.00% Magic Find.
Attack Speed - *You may have a maximum of +40.00% Attack Speed from items.
Edited by Det0x#2856 on 9/26/2013 3:53 PM PDT
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New Datamined Patch - Class Changes, Passive Effects, Character slots, Stat caps, Quests, and MUCH more @ http://www.diablofans.com/

Silverfire gets his snailing game he wanted so badly..

Critical Hit Chance - *You may have a maximum of +40.00% Critical Hit Chance from items.
Block Chance - *You may have a maximum of 75.00% Block Chance.
Critical Hit Damage - *You may have a maximum of +250.00% Critical Hit Damage from items.
Movement Speed - *You may have a maximum of +25.00% movement speed from items
Gold Find - *You may have a maximum of +300.00% Gold Find.
Magic Find - *This increase is diminished for rare and legendary and set items.
Magic Find - *You may have a maximum of +300.00% Magic Find.
Attack Speed - *You may have a maximum of +40.00% Attack Speed from items.


Just saw all this as well....looks like primary stats are going to be at a premium....
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09/26/2013 03:41 PMPosted by Det0x
Silverfire gets his snailing game he wanted so badly..

Well, I'm doing such a good job at making friends in the barb forums that I might as well add that I think these changes are good ones, too. I actually feel like the crit chance, attack speed and crit damage caps are too high. I'd probably cut them in half of what's listed.

It's not that being OP is a bad thing, quite to the contrary. It's just that stacking the holy trifecta to get there is really bland. Though I'm concerned about what this will mean for 2h weapons.

But lol...I see the block chance cap is really high.
Edited by silverfire#1855 on 9/26/2013 4:07 PM PDT
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Once again, limiting player's efficiency is the exact opposite of what makes D2 popular. This is as brilliant as setting a speed limit on a race track.
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Silverfire gets his snailing game he wanted so badly..

Well, I'm doing such a good job at making friends in the barb forums that I might as well add that I think these changes are good ones, too. I actually feel like the crit chance, attack speed and crit damage caps are too high. I'd probably cut them in half of what's listed.

It's not that being OP is a bad thing, quite to the contrary. It's just that stacking the holy trifecta to get there is really bland.

But lol...I see the block chance cap is really high.


On the bright side, all of these notes say "from items" (except magic/gold find and block chance) which means that paragon will be very important. Also, any items that are + attack per second for dual wield will be huge (we will see at least 1 more appear with the addition of loot 2.0 if the item properties remain unchanged with : http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/the-ancient-bonesaber-of-zumakalis )

It is going to take some serious theorycrafting to figure out the best combination of items to get the maximum primary stat as well as reach the top of these caps....

I hope with the addition of paragon 2.0 and movement speed being able to be boosted beyond the cap via that route that the game won't play at a snail pace necessarily....

To quote Lylirra:

09/20/2013 06:49 PMPosted by Lylirra
- All categories other than Core Stats (DEX, INT, STR, VIT) have a cap on the number of points that can be allocated to them, which also means there is a cap to the total number of points that 3 of the 4 categories can have. At present, this means if you reach Shared Paragon 800, you will have maxed the number of points that can be allocated to the Offensive, Defensive, and Utility categories and all future Paragon levels you earn will grant you a point in the Core Stat category instead.


If I am reading into this right, I would wager that movement speed would be under the "utility" category (probably with magic find, gold find, and....xp??) and if you max out the 4 categories at paragon 800 I think it is a safe wager to say that the cap for each utility could be in the area of 50 paragon points for each one (4 utility skills, 1 point to the utility category every 4 levels).

I hope this means that we can get up to 50% additional movement speed from strictly paragon points, which would be incredibly fun....it would be the equivalent of having 24% move speed on gear, WoTB, and a fleeting shrine all the time. The pace of the game would be incredibly active, without the concern of spamming skills to refresh WoTB. Not to mention, we would be able to attain this level of speed at paragon 200 if you exclusively put points into movement speed (I know I will be putting a majority of my points into this ASAP on nearly all characters)
Edited by Wayneold#1685 on 9/26/2013 4:39 PM PDT
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My hope is that this will make more items like SoJ stronger and more viable. SoJ has none of the holy trifecta stats, yet its every good barb's favorite ring for DE and uber farming, with good reason. One of the devs (Travis IIRC) said that he liked the SoJ in particular. And honestly who wouldn't? You get the utility of cold damage if you opt for it, the utility of skill bonuses like ww/op crit chance or HotA reduction, and a massive damage bump against elites. "far more valuable than its appearance would suggest" indeed.

Thinking out loud here, but what I'd like to see is way more pieces like SoJ. Instead of having trifectas in every jewelry slot and gloves, you'd have more items that add damage in more subtle, but more meaningful ways.
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My hope is that this will make more items like SoJ stronger and more viable. SoJ has none of the holy trifecta stats, yet its every good barb's favorite ring for DE and uber farming, with good reason. One of the devs (Travis IIRC) said that he liked the SoJ in particular. And honestly who wouldn't? You get the utility of cold damage if you opt for it, the utility of skill bonuses like ww/op crit chance or HotA reduction, and a massive damage bump against elites. "far more valuable than its appearance would suggest" indeed.

Thinking out loud here, but what I'd like to see is way more pieces like SoJ. Instead of having trifectas in every jewelry slot and gloves, you'd have more items that add damage in more subtle, but more meaningful ways.


Also, all elemental damage will now have a function again! I forgot where I saw that....but it's exciting....I hope they allow us to stack these effects. Stun/poison/snare/charm/incinerate all at once? Yes please
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