Diablo® III

Call to Arms

The new caps will have the effect of normalising player levels. E.g. right now Det0x's barb is vastly superior to mine, but if the best he could beat me by is say 500 strength, we'd be much closer. Then skill would come into play more (which he undoubtedly has more of too).
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The cap for CHD is so much lower that I think they would have to alter existing items.

Like if you can still get 100% CHD from an amulet in the expansion, seems kind of easy to cap, huh? Or Skorn taking you to cap in one item (lol). So I am guessing that they will 'convert' items to like 1/2-1/3 of the CHD value if those caps go live.

Back to topic, I see both sides really. Nubtro saying the whole point of the game is to faceroll. Wyatt saying too much faceroll is bad (I agree - to an extent). Thing is, you don't NEED lifesteal to faceroll, with the exception of reflect damage. It just happens to be a super efficient way to do things. You drop anything that doesn't buff damage, because at high DPS + lifesteal, stacking even MORE dps improves defenses and removes the need for defensive skills completely (win win).

So at a certain point, defensive skills become obsolete because you are better off just killing stuff even faster to heal more damage.
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The cap for CHD is so much lower that I think they would have to alter existing items.

Like if you can still get 100% CHD from an amulet in the expansion, seems kind of easy to cap, huh? Or Skorn taking you to cap in one item (lol). So I am guessing that they will 'convert' items to like 1/2-1/3 of the CHD value if those caps go live.


I kind of hope they don't change existing items or future item rolls....after the rebalance of the patch with rubies, they can easily substitute into weapon slots instead of emeralds....or if someone wants to gear with just straight utility on jewelry items they can still go emerald in weapon(s), and after all the fun looking item mods they have already datamined for rings, it would be a relief to consider a ring still BiS, or build changing without a trifecta/avg dmg/primary stat roll. Leaving the availability of crit damage high on items and the cap low makes it easily attainable, but strategic as to which items you want to use to get there....kind of like movement speed currently is. That way you don't need to have crit damage on 8 pieces of gear to have a good gear set.....which, for me personally, is a relief.

Check out some of these affixes that have been datamined for rings, I don't want to need to have CD on my rings anymore if these are available:

ItemPassive_Unique_Ring_628_x1 - Leap gains up to 3 charges.

ItemPassive_Unique_Ring_521_x1 - Shrine effects last for one hour (instead of until death).

ItemPassive_Unique_Ring_590_x1 - Increase the Knockback distance of your skills that cause Knockback by 100% and increase their damage by 50%. (seismic slam anyone?)

ItemPassive_Unique_Ring_634_x1 - Blocking an attack Freezes the attacker.

ItemPassive_Unique_Ring_635_x1 - While moving your resource generation and damage is increased by 25%. While stationary your resource regeneration and damage is reduced by 25%. (WW and furious charge builds?)

ItemPassive_Unique_Ring_636_x1 - Health globes restore 20% of your primary resource. (No more fury problems!)

ItemPassive_Unique_Ring_639_x1 - Warcry increases your and your allies' run speed by 40% for 10 seconds. (Mini forced march)

ItemPassive_Unique_Ring_644_x1 - Increase chance to find Health Globes by 100%. (paired up with the affix above = infinite fury)

ItemPassive_Unique_Ring_645_x1 - Gain a death aura that deals 1000% of your Life per Second to enemies within 20 yards but your Life per Second no longer heals you. (paired with WW - hurricane and War Cry - Invigorate?)


These are just some of the datamined effects...there are so many others and I'm sure more on the way

I mean, people use exclusively Skorn for 2 handed weapons because for any other weapon (except a godly rare and some other very exclusive exceptions) they lose out on the unmistakably necessary guaranteed roll of double crit damage + socket. A cap of 250% crit damage makes nearly every other high level 2H weapon a viable option instantly. If you can hit the cap of 250% crit damage on gear alone, what stops you from using a Grandfather sword? Or a monk actually using a *gasp* Daibo? Or a Boulder Breaker?! It would be a nice change of pace for sure....

Back to topic, I see both sides really. Nubtro saying the whole point of the game is to faceroll. Wyatt saying too much faceroll is bad (I agree - to an extent). Thing is, you don't NEED lifesteal to faceroll, with the exception of reflect damage. It just happens to be a super efficient way to do things. You drop anything that doesn't buff damage, because at high DPS + lifesteal, stacking even MORE dps improves defenses and removes the need for defensive skills completely (win win).

So at a certain point, defensive skills become obsolete because you are better off just killing stuff even faster to heal more damage.


I hope that with this patch and expansion the monster power level that Blizzard balances the game with items and builds to where you can still easily faceroll the game as you get higher paragon levels....and even switch builds as your utility gets better as well. Right now, let's use WW and HoTA for example...I prefer WW for farming far and away because of the movement and speed of play, but if my paragon allowed me to have the same speed with a HoTA build I might choose that, and that build may even become more efficient as I level up too.
Edited by Wayneold#1685 on 9/26/2013 8:58 PM PDT
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I hope you are right Wayne. I hope current ranges on CHD still roll on items, and new interesting affixes are being added to take their place.

Big nerfs to CHD will make PVP something that may actually be playable!
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So the high weapon damage presented at gamescom wasn´t just for show.

I´m not sure if reducing our current values on gear is necessary, because the caps just make some gear slots obsolete and you´ll be changing them / rerolling through the mystic, not to mention it´s ilvl 63. Also, I don´t think they will be changing our current gear at all.

Btw. there was a comment from the DH turned Barbarian turned Wizard player among us Barb vets (:p) about how SoJ is a good item because of the cold effect (among other things). Well, search for the dev response to my "ask the devs" question about elemental (weapon) damage - basically they said the "adds x% to elemental damage" affix also doesn´t work as intended, it should boost the elemental portion of weapon damage. If they indeed change it to how it is supposed to work then we won´t have cold damage from SoJs without cold damage on weapons, which will make our Slowing skills more viable.

Anyway, I´ll reserve most of my judgment until later today, as I have to give it some more thought first and I´m leaving for work, where I can´t login.
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Something is contradicting about these Devs,

2012: The point of D3 is to slay monster (hunt loot) and feel powerful (op)
2013: Meh.. game too easy... not tactical enough....
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Silverfire gets his snailing game he wanted so badly..

Well, I'm doing such a good job at making friends in the barb forums that I might as well add that I think these changes are good ones, too. I actually feel like the crit chance, attack speed and crit damage caps are too high. I'd probably cut them in half of what's listed.

It's not that being OP is a bad thing, quite to the contrary. It's just that stacking the holy trifecta to get there is really bland. Though I'm concerned about what this will mean for 2h weapons.

But lol...I see the block chance cap is really high.


Who says you wont be stacking them when the patch get released ?
Lets look at some numbers..

Critical hit chance:

Helm = 6cc
Amulet = 10cc
Gloves = 10cc
Bracer = 6cc
Left ring = 6cc
Right ring = SoJ

Total amount = 38% critical hit chance

Increased attack speed

Helm = 9ias
Amulet = 9ias
Gloves = 9ias
Bracer = 9ias
Left ring = 9ias
Right ring = SoJ
Mighty belt = "game changing affix"

Total amount = 45% Increased attack speed

Now over to the real interesting change. Critical hit damage... Oh i see what you did there.

I will simplify this to keep it easy to understand.

With my highly optimized HotA spec, iam sitting at effective 100% critical hit chance, with around ~700% critical hit damage.

If i were to use a "1000dps weapon" to keep it simple, it would look somewhat like this.

1000dps * 700cd = "700000 dps"

And with a new ~3000 dps weapon, with the new 250cd cap. (Got a "strange feeling" they will top out at around 3.6k dps as todays weapons at 1.2k dps)

3000 * 250 = "750000 dps"

Oh will you look at that, basically you would get the same damage output, only that its more "normalized". (pvp?)

But there is one major change here.. With this new setup you will only need two items to reach this number, compared to maxed BIS items with cd in every item-slot as today.

Amulet = 100 cd
Weapon with socket = 210 cc

Total amount = 310 critical hit damage.

This will also pretty much render the "special gear choices" for barbs as obsolete.. They include:

Tal Rasha's Relentless Pursuit
2 Sets bonus from Natalya's
Zunimassa's Trail
Inna's Temperance

Thats the hard gearing choices for you Silverfire, its gonna get easier to get "endgame gear", as everyone pretty much will be running around with the same pDPS number, after a few hundred hours played. But i guess the general forums are happy because they finally can do the same content, with the same efficiency as you, with minimal effort required.. (IN A LOOT DRIVEN GAME!)

The only thing thats really gonna set characters apart, are Paragon levels, and while iam at the subject i can share little info about what that is happening right now, that the average scrub dont know/understand:

*offtopic rant*

There are popping up more and more xp leveling websites. But these ain't the normal ones leveling from 1 to 60.. These new ones will level your character to Paragon level 100.

I already have a few "top geared" toons in my friend-list, that are using this service...

If i understood the one i spook to correctly, the levelers use from 50 to 100 hours ingame time, to level a new character to Paragon level 100.

They play it pretty much non-stop, so it takes about a week or less. (they logout when you want to play your own character)

And when they are done, you get a inventory full of demonic essences, a paragon level 100 toon.. All for the cost of ~250$. (and the price is going down, down and down as more sites starts to provide this service)

I kinda the stupid one, for not using this service myself, as i would earn much more time/money working overtime at my job, instead of playing the game and leveling myself...

You can look at it this way, if you earn over 2.5$ per hour at your job, or in my case over 7$ per hour, i would get more "time/money" back for using this technique. (I actually only need to work 7 hours overtime at my job, to break even)

250$ / 100 hours = 2.5$ per hour
250$ / 34 hours = ~7.35$ per hour

Anyway, the point iam trying to make is that it wont be all that much "play to win" as people expect with the new patch.. As there already a profiles sitting with 11x paragon level 100 characters ready... And thats a pretty hefty headstart, all in conjunction with all the best gear will still be on sale at sites like JSP and Loothunter.

*end rant*
Edited by Det0x#2856 on 9/27/2013 7:53 AM PDT
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Who says you wont be stacking them when the patch get released ?Lets look at some numbers..


I was thinking the same after adding together my stats on equipment when this first came out.
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09/27/2013 07:22 AMPosted by Det0x
Who says you wont be stacking them when the patch get released ?


You also use current item maximum levels for these stats...who is to say a level 70 item can roll up to 10% IAS and 12% crit chance on gloves/ammy? If that happens, even that small tweak will reduce the number of items required to reach the gear cap substantially, not to mention with loot 2.0 you won't be regulated to IAS coming from just Inna's pants or witching hour....here are some other alternatives to gain attack speed in a slot from just existing items that will have a possible lvl 70 roll (nevermind new legendaries/sets/set bonuses):

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/broken-crown
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/steady-strikers
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/artisan/blacksmith/recipe/quick-draw-belt
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/goldwrap
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/girdle-of-giants
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/pride-of-cassius
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/artisan/blacksmith/recipe/captain-crimsons-codpiece
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/boj-anglers
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/artisan/blacksmith/recipe/ashearas-lock

There are popping up more and more xp leveling websites. But these ain't the normal ones leveling from 1 to 60.. These new ones will level your character to Paragon level 100.


If someone places their account in the hands of a perfect stranger online and is willing to pay them large sums of money to get ahead in this game....I hate to say it, but there really is nothing that can be done to stop them. What is Blizzard supposed to do about this type of behavior? I am willing to wager that 99.9% of players will not utilize such a service, and the inherent risk of giving your account and money to someone for a service such as this one creates a problem that will solve itself.

The first few accounts that get stolen via this method will be sad, but then it will just be "I told you so". Although, now that I think about it, giving someone your Authenticator for just 1 log-in keeps it fairly safe as far as you will still have access to your account....but no telling if you'll be able to trust all your gear and gold will remain on your characters upon your return.
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det0x-

a) We have no idea how affixes will roll on ilvl 73 gear. Maybe cc/ias/cd will roll the same, maybe higher, but likely lower (in which case the caps won't really do anything anyways)

b) The blunt truth is that it doesn't make any sense for blizzard to cater to people like you and the top-geared people on your friends list that only care about being the best. Their problem is that they alienated the casuals who make up the bulk of their sales. What people at your gear level do is practically irrelevant. And obviously people who want to be at the top at all costs will stop at nothing to get there, taking every advantage possible.
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09/27/2013 09:27 AMPosted by silverfire
The blunt truth is that it doesn't make any sense for blizzard to cater to people like you and the top-geared people on your friends list that only care about being the best. Their problem is that they alienated the casuals who make up the bulk of their sales. What people at your gear level do is practically irrelevant. And obviously people who want to be at the top at all costs will stop at nothing to get there, taking every advantage possible.

You´re contradicting yourself with your previous statements. No casual cares about super tactical combat, they just want to destroy stuff and get something in return (upgrades) on a reasonably regular basis.

That, my friend, is most important for me as well. I´m not the type to generalize, but a lot of the alienating had something to do with the whole AH concept. Now that the AH will be history soon, I´m looking forward to actually playing a game that would reward me for playing it like it should be played...because if the game worked like it should, my gear would have to be better with my 2500+ hours than basically 98% of the players here, excluding bots.

-----

On topic of the most recent datamined information - the stat caps, it´s difficult to gauge if they´ll be easy to achieve or not as the new stuff may indeed roll lower values, although I´d expect them to roll higher values given a higher max item level.

The IAS cap of course hurts 2H...as if losing LS wasn´t enough. Basically say bye bye to >14 tick breakpoints with 2H weapons, remember there is no more WotB buff - at the current datamined state, you get 40% from gear and 10% from paragon points, lol...welcome to slooow swinging. I´m sure DW bonus stays in the game and is included in the cap, so that´s another advantage for DW (less slots to achieve the cap). I really hope there is something planned to keep 2H competitive as I´m not sure how well Rend will perform given the other caps we´re getting.

Honestly, the crit damage change is understandable as it´s quite ridiculous that you can hit for 7-8x your normal damage. That being said, what I don´t like, is that there is a hard cap. My stance is that diminishing returns are almost always a better choice. Oh well, as has been said, weapon damage will be buffed like we saw in the gamescom examples.

As for crit chance, 40% by today´s standards is almost maxed out on every piece that rolls the affix, so I´m not sure what they aim to do here. The more important issue here is and I´m not sure if you guys noticed, is how slowly, one after another, we´re losing what made us Barbs unique - massive crit chance from our skills.

Ruthless gone -5% crit chance -50% crit damage
Axe Weapons Master -5% crit chance
ToC gone -10% crit chance
Killing Spree gone -10% crit chance

At this point I expect Best Served Cold to lose the crit chance bonus as well, leaving us with quite averge crit chance values among classes. Now please don´t argue with paragon point crit chance (supposedly +10%), because all characters get that. The "new ITF" is weird as well, because it´s always been very difficult to gauge the distance in this game.

I mean, this is as if they´re supressing the Barbarian entity - built around crits. I honestly don´t like this change, it´s what made us special and synergizes well with our skills. Don´t forget that Overpower was more available thanks to crits so we´re losing that part of our eDPS as well (albeit non-significant).

Now I´d bet everything I have on Rampage becoming the #1-2 most important passive because of us losing soo much damage output compared to other classes. Not just from losing crit chance and crit damage, but also from losing our well-working eDPS synergies. Then of course, everyone will use Mighty Weapons Master...talk about diversity.

At least now, there is a distinct difference when it comes to dealing damage between Barbs and Witch Doctors - we rely on crits and crit damage, they rely on buffed primary stat. My pessimistic prediction is that we will excel at nothing anymore and become a jack of all trades subpar, average at best. I hope I´m wrong, of course.

I´m still waiting for some signs of hope when it comes to our skill revamps but I´m mostly seeing outright nerfs which are piling up like crazy and they seem to try to balance them out with broken effects that IMO should not be even considered (yes like the freaking 45 yard WW pull).

As for movement speed, the current 25% cap is simply wrong and limits gear diversity. I´ve written a 10K character long post about this issue today and how to improve MS, so feel free to read it.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/10039514450?page=12#229

Oh yeah, Mr. Cheng posted again in that topic earlier today and he tried to reassure us that D3 is still supposed to be an action RPG with lots of fast paced monster slaying. Well, we´ll see how that works out during the expansion development process :)

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/10039514450?page=11#213

Seems like the outcry against "barb-after-release-super-slow" worked for now...
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 9/27/2013 10:46 AM PDT
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The IAS cap of course hurts 2H...as if losing LS wasn´t enough. Basically say bye bye to >14 tick breakpoints with 2H weapons, remember there is no more WotB buff - at the current datamined state, you get 40% from gear and 10% from paragon points,


Sorry, did I miss some info? Is it stated somewhere that paragon will be capped out at a 10% increase in attack speed?

I figured it would be closer to 50% or so at max level for paragon bonuses....but that was simply just a guess....
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09/27/2013 10:36 AMPosted by Nubtro
I´m looking forward to actually playing a game that would reward me for playing it like it should be played...because if the game worked like it should, my gear would have to be better with my 2500+ hours than basically 98% of the players here, excluding bots.


This!
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09/27/2013 10:36 AMPosted by Nubtro
The blunt truth is that it doesn't make any sense for blizzard to cater to people like you and the top-geared people on your friends list that only care about being the best. Their problem is that they alienated the casuals who make up the bulk of their sales. What people at your gear level do is practically irrelevant. And obviously people who want to be at the top at all costs will stop at nothing to get there, taking every advantage possible.

You´re contradicting yourself with your previous statements. No casual cares about super tactical combat, they just want to destroy stuff and get something in return (upgrades) on a reasonably regular basis.

Everyone is casual compared to det0x.
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Sorry, did I miss some info? Is it stated somewhere that paragon will be capped out at a 10% increase in attack speed?
I figured it would be closer to 50% or so at max level for paragon bonuses....but that was simply just a guess....

It was 10% crit chance, 50% crit damage, 10% IAS IIRC.
Oh here I found the info (I think these values were at gamescom)
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7961416762
- Attack
Crit Chance +0.2% [0/50].
Crit Damage +1% [0/50].
Attack Speed +0.2% [0/50].
Cooldown Reduction +0.2% [0/50].

Not sure why you expected significant values, honestly :/
09/27/2013 11:25 AMPosted by silverfire
Everyone is casual compared to det0x.

Well, I had the privilege to paragon level with him and his team the other day because noone with better gear was around at that time so they had to put up with the weak me, but he also died to lasers and stuff, you know, and once he couldn´t port out of Fields when a RD fast leaper was following him around (btw. the champ pack split and I had 2 chasing me and I managed to outrun them hahahha).

Was a fun time.
Edited by Nubtro#2147 on 9/27/2013 11:50 AM PDT
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It's weird seeing him with a dtww build and skorn. He probably doesn't know what he's doing.
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Well, we had a good run fellas. Time to re-roll.
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It was 10% crit chance, 50% crit damage, 10% IAS IIRC.
Oh here I found the info (I think these values were at gamescom)
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7961416762
- Attack
Crit Chance +0.2% [0/50].
Crit Damage +1% [0/50].
Attack Speed +0.2% [0/50].
Cooldown Reduction +0.2% [0/50].

Not sure why you expected significant values, honestly :/


Didn't see that...it was hiding on the Euro forums....

I expected significant values because, frankly, I don't think there will be a lot of people that will ever reach paragon 800, especially with how much XP it will take to get there, and getting 4 levels just simply to gain .2% attack speed seems a little defeating.....

I hope these numbers are adjusted to be 1/50th of the cap numbers for gear per level....I think it is reasonable that someone that sinks the required amount of time into a game to be paragon 800 should be twice as powerful as the person just starting out, even if they have the exact same gear set.
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It was 10% crit chance, 50% crit damage, 10% IAS IIRC.
Oh here I found the info (I think these values were at gamescom)
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7961416762
- Attack
Crit Chance +0.2% [0/50].
Crit Damage +1% [0/50].
Attack Speed +0.2% [0/50].
Cooldown Reduction +0.2% [0/50].

Not sure why you expected significant values, honestly :/


Didn't see that...it was hiding on the Euro forums....

I expected significant values because, frankly, I don't think there will be a lot of people that will ever reach paragon 800, especially with how much XP it will take to get there, and getting 4 levels just simply to gain .2% attack speed seems a little defeating.....

I hope these numbers are adjusted to be 1/50th of the cap numbers for gear per level....I think it is reasonable that someone that sinks the required amount of time into a game to be paragon 800 should be twice as powerful as the person just starting out, even if they have the exact same gear set.


I think you're underestimating Blizzards goal of total equality despite gear & paragon level, Wayne.
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I think you're underestimating Blizzards goal of total equality despite gear & paragon level, Wayne.


Perhaps....I have tried to be an advocate of change for this entire process....but this is just one detail I can't get behind....

I want time invested to actually matter.
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