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Sorry, I dont get it. you use gloom constantly for offense?
The cooldown of smokescreen from data mine is 2 second, compared to the 1 second now. So in fact you can 'theoretically' cast it every second, since it last for 1 second.
If you meant you'll use it as offense when iLvl70 release, then you're not following my post.
What I intended to say is nobody use L4N as offense priority in current game.
Permanent or what's not, doesn't matter. You indirectly deals more damage because you survived better doesn't mean that ehp equal dps.
In case you quote, good defense is the best offense, this statement don't mean defense = offense.
Whatever, back on topic, L4N might be viable, and I still keep it but I don't hold high hope.
The cooldown has ALWAYS been 2 seconds, when they cut the skill to 1 second duration you can't cast smoke over and over again... Open up the game and test it yourself.
So what do you do when you have Gloom or any sort of SP (other than Glide) on?
Do you stop and run away or do you move in and continue a stream of attacks?
SP was "the demon hunter" way of defense; kill them before they kill you.
If you want pure damage reduction you should be using Smoke Screen.
Again I'm telling you right now, I'm using it for offense, there are others that also use it to boost their edps by turning those extra discipline into damage. You can use your discipline to gain kill speed and movement speed as well as some crowd control.
Edited by KirusAlufras#1739 on 10/6/2013 7:12 PM PDT
Caltrops + CtW? This was like day 1 DH strat.
I apologize that I misunderstand on the exact cooldown of smokescreen.
Indeed, you still went on the route of good defense is the best offense. sigh~
Anyway, your point is turning 'unlimited' discipline granted by your L4N to continue dealing more damage, so you're in fact using it for offense. Point Taken.
So what about it? When changes arrived, the discipline you 'might' be able to convert will not be as values as now. This is my point.
20% increase on nightbane by continuous cast due to disc re-gen vs
20% increase in stats from the new gears
You survived better now, compared to current new ilvl60+ new nat, which converts to high damage output.
But ilvl70 changes, the way monsters deals damage, the way you deals damage and compares to L4N, the difference 'i assume' will not be as big, or output might even be lesser.
Conclusion, keep your L4N, but don't expect it to be your final end game gear.
What's the definition of "end game gear"?
If by "end game gear" you mean to say the best gear with the most efficiency in clearing the highest MP levels, L4N isn't "end game gear" NOW, so why would anyone expect it to be with items 10 levels higher?
You're arguing against a point I don't think anyone is making.
My definition of end game gear is you won't need to change the gear, be it cannot find better version.
Because the OP put the point of 'viable'. If it's not about end game gear, then I must retract my post.
It is pointless to argue whether L4N is viable and all old gears are as viable, so why is L4N singled out.
If I may, what is the real point, of this thread?
Did nobody read my lengthy post or what lol, L4N can be BIS eventually if the same slots don't provide better passive set buffs or special bonuses and so far we havnt seen anything to support their will be better special buffs in some of those slots.
The new gear short term will be better in terms of raw stats, in the long haul you hit diminishing returns and if your have enough stat points (main stats are infinite in paragon point allocation) from your playtime. At truly end game stat points on gear will be very minor compared to % based bonuses and special set bonuses and legendary bonuses due to how they work. For example if you have 5000 dex which is totally possible with stat point allocation and new gear in all the other 8 slots and you add 200 dex that is only 4% more dex DPS. That is nearly negligible compared to say adding a current 6% SOJ cold damage (which is being nerfed to not apply the same way in Loot 2.0) which would add a tremendous amount percent based amount of your total DPS.
It's things like this that will matter the most at truly end game. It won't be so much about item stats since the characters will be super charged with paragon points ontop of the gear they wear. What will be game changing will be the special bonuses and abilities the gear applies not the measly 400 dex or whatever.
To many people here are still stuck thinking the same way that current gear works where you want big DPS and EHP numbers on your slots and that's it. That's not how blizzard wants us playing which is why the focus is shifting to build changing set/gear bonuses and less trifecta stats and even though we might see big Mainstat values we are also seeing infinite Mainstat paragon points.
The end result is everyone has a chance to find good strong new loot 2.0 gear but the truly game breaking type stuff isn't going to come from 400 Mainstat here 400 vit there it's going to come from X skill does this or X skill does that or X regenerates this etc etc.
This is what blizzard has been saying for weeks now about BUILD CHANGERS. Legacy Nats was just here early ahead of its time when it came to that department and new gear is coming to help mix up the variety.
If a year from now your a paragon 900 DH or something and have L4N and top gear in every other slot weapon etc that provides special bonuses also you will have more build choices and options. Right now we have nothing that regens discipline the same way so it will still be very powerful.
I would much rather be a paragon 900 Legacy Nats DH with maybe 2% less dex DPS but with discipline to spam than a paragon 900 new Nats DH with just bigger Mainstat on certain slots and yet equal paragon points invested that begins to hit diminishing returns and plateaus with the legacy set.
That is my point, at the end game with hours spent it isn't going to be about O my Nats boot has 300 dex your legacy has only 150 because that extra 150 dex will be negligible compared to say discipline regen. Likewise any new gear that might become better like death watch mantle shoulder I would much rather use for the FOK bonus damage than say another pair that just gives me 100 more dex which is almost nothing at the high end of paragon points and dex gear.
People are still thinking Short term which is where gear stat point numbers will matter but as character progression overtakes it special bonuses to gear will be much more valuable to build choices and options which is obviously blizzards direction. They don't want the same problem we have right now where X gear drops people say aww poop the gear is -100 dex and vit but ithas a cool ability but not worth it so ima brim it. They want people to say wow I got another item that does an interesting thing when I wear it but the one I have allows for another build which one should I wear now for what play style? Not based on the items stat points alone since that can be fixed easily by paragon points
Edited by METATRON#1945 on 10/6/2013 9:55 PM PDT
err... that was not want I meant..
Jagged Spike adds 45% dps (w/o aps) per second per discipline and you can stack 5 over 6 seconds. So I can stack 2 and keep SP on w/o the need to use NS, prep, or another discipline generator.
90% dps >> 20% dps any day, I assume ilvl will be 45% better than now, so that's 90% dps > 65% dps still.
4pc armor is very very minor if you consider the caps they are going to add and those paragon bonuses if you play long.
In this game (imo) resource is your number one damage dealer.
APoC and into the Fray and NS are OP. I'm glad blizz put into action to remove them. You will not see any barbarian running 100% WotB when into the Fray is gone even if they don't change how Thrive on Chaos generate time. There isn't much Fury to "dump". You can still ww/sprint forever tho.
What does that even mean though?
Why would you not want to change gears around? <- this is a problem with the current game though, in that there isn't much gear variety to change around.
There are some things you can do with L4N that you can't with regular pieces.
I always thought this game, series, or genre was about finding some items and creating stuff with it - not getting a better piece to continue repeating the same grinding process of getting a better piece to continue the same grinding process. A bot can do the latter but not the former. Not only that, the game isn't even that extensive for some stupid dangling carrot like that. I assure you that players that only play for the latter will never be satisfied, ever.
L4N will still have value and still be viable unless another something pops up that gives you the same 4-piece bonus without actually having to have L4N. Until then, it will always have its place, and might even see more opportunities combined with what's to come.
*I've had a poor man's Nat's from before the set stopped dropping(never got the ring, can't afford even the weakest roll). So I'm familiar with the set even though my profile doesn't have it on.
Bottom line for me is ..... if you want to get rid of a class and it happens to be a DH ... might as well sell the L4N ...... but if you want to keep the class... why wouldn't you keep the L4N you already have. With the AH going bye-bye ..... and if L4N is deemed worthless in RoS then who cares... make DE from it... lol. We won't really have a need for much gold once there is no AH ... so what are you gonna do stockpile 20-50b gold for nothing? Most things will become obsolete with new lvl 70 gear. L4N is one of the few real Legacy items (along with a few select other legendary items) which have stood the test of time and I believe it will still hold up pretty well with RoS.
Exactly, if you are selling it now so as to get a new set, what's the point? Frankly, L4N has decreased massively in value since the xpac announcement. I know a few who have been trying to sell their gg set and have no luck. If you are planning profit off it, you can't, if you are planning to switch to the new set, why? It will be obsolete anyway.
The only reason to sell a set right now should be as followed:
a) Extra stuff in stash,
b) you won't be playing that toon until the xpac / loot 2.0 hit, or ever. (you still have to lvl from 60 - 70 before you can make use of the lvl 70 items)
c) cash out
d) switch to a cheaper set, unless you have very gg L4N, you probably won't be able to do so, as most L4N pieces arent' selling on AH / RMAH.
your still thinking big stat numbers matter in the long run on gear, i already explained why they wont in my last big post and you forget theres still 8 more slots for the new gear with neat special abilities and stat points.
Also max discipline gear and new nats set is crap in terms of discipline compared to legacy still, i know i own both sets at high end levels for pvp. The only reason new nats does somewhat better in pvp in certain situations is the higher stats, which like i said wont mean a damn thing come paragon 2.0 stat point allocation in the long haul.
Edited by METATRON#1945 on 10/7/2013 3:25 PM PDT
l4n are not selling (if you are trying) because they are over priced...
I might pay double or triple (from what I paid) for an upgrade but when they are mostly "low end" stuff dropping a finger in that blow is a waste of time and money.
like what Killua and BubbaGump has said sell it if you think it is not worth it to come and play RoS with them. There are only 2 scenario when the RoS hit.
1. ilvl70 add +2disc/sec = l4n trash
2. ilvl70 does not add +2 disc/sec = l4n value goes up but no AH for easy transaction.
tho with that said...
I need a socket gaze.. I gave my away after I hit p100. And then comes the xpac news..
If you got one sitting around and has "HIGH FEAR proc" you can hit me in game, but I don't over pay, only buy stuff that I it is worth. (and you can look at my gears, they are not the best in the world, so you know I'm picky)
btw remember that translate cost from disc to hatred for vault?
If you are going to buy that you will be out of hatred for attacks XD
+1 @METATRON. I'm in it for the long haul.
Transmog it, re roll a little for some key dps mods - cc, cd or ias. Get the rest of your dex from para 9000 and ehp/special rolls else wear.
What if all those special rolls only come on new sojs or quivers? I can see maybe a beefed clusted reductioned on the cloak being nice.. but with the cost coming down anyways and the damage isn't getting a huge buff.. I'm not lookin at cluster as my spender. Maybe bombardment with grenades bonus or rocket skills with rocket bonus
I'm thinkin evasive fire with unlimited backflips for the untouchable DH. or rocket rune with rocket passive. SP nightbane, CTW steady aim for great damage buffs. Screw those dumb shadow towers. I'm an arrow slinging, highly motivated demon hunter. Not some builder bob trying to contructacon my way out of battle. Vengeance is mine with some cooldown reductions gem(s) and the rocket passive with CTW,steady aim nightbane synergy? Death from afar and I like it.
I want that disc regen to fuel my Nightbane slowing build and not need to rely on nightstalker as a passive for the disc.
Heck ya its going to be viable. I'll MAKE IT viable. :D
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