Diablo® III

Legacy Nat's Set Viable After Expansion?

depends how you measure viable?

face roll mp 10? well barbs are the only true face rollers. as @oscar, (i think?) is the one who made the video proving this. this will change.

can you survive mp10 with legacy nats? yes. a good player can survive with any gear. viable does not mean godly or fastest clear times. it means passable, doable, able to achieve with. anything is viable. if someone wants to crawl thru mp10 thats viable with the weaker gear they want to use making it viable lol. softcore shouldn't even think about viable. our characters respawn! is l4n endgame? depends on the user and his/her goals.

thats where this whole conversation is kind of broken. change topic to - will nats legacy still be fun and provide speed farming? or will I still have insane disc regen from the set? well yes to the regen unless blizz jus outright changes the set.. which i don't think they're doing. will l4n still have a niche market? yes.

hopefully those people in their "junk" sets get to reroll a stat and create some interesting personal gear. I'm sure they're having great fun running in the junk gear using plenty of disc level grinding to their hearts content! good for them!
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Cmon, do you guys really believe Blizz would allow typical players to get enough stats from paragon points to basically invalidate stat rolls on gear? Thats a pipe dream.

If that was their intention, they wouldn't have jacked up the stat rolls on gear by 50% for ilvl 70.
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Cmon, do you guys really believe Blizz would allow typical players to get enough stats from paragon points to basically invalidate stat rolls on gear? Thats a pipe dream.

If that was their intention, they wouldn't have jacked up the stat rolls on gear by 50% for ilvl 70.


you do know mainstat points are currently infinite right? Blizzard has been steadily trying to phase out gear being the sole important thing based on stats alone. The whole purpose of paragon points was to bring a balance to that lol.
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Keyword "balance".

If paragon points completely invalidate the benefits of stats on gear, then it's not really balanced is it?
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10/07/2013 04:46 PMPosted by Sarahimus
no way its mp10 viable. unless you have perfect legacy set. and most the time the people rolling with legacy are rollin in complete junk stat sets.


i do mp10 all the time with mine lol, actually kill just fine thanks to jagged spikes spam adding some serious eDPS ontop of spike traps and grenades. Just saying :P
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Keyword "balance".

If paragon points completely invalidate the benefits of stats on gear, then it's not really balanced is it?


key word, gear will be better in the short term, in the long term stat points will overtake that, blizzard wants to reward the hardcore people who PLAY, like i said in a post earlier. whats going to be game breaking? 400 dex here and there or X gear does X?

ask yourself that at END game, where you have your hours put in, believe me you and i and anyone else who has those hours invested knows it isnt going to be X gear gives me 400 dex, its going to be X gear regenerate/procs/does % etc etc.

Blizzard wants BUILD changers not people counting stat points like they currently do, they have said this time and time again.
Edited by METATRON#1945 on 10/7/2013 5:50 PM PDT
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The new gear with all those nifty special effects? THEY'LL STILL HAVE STATS ON THEM.

So you're saying that if I want item X with

ItemPassive_Unique_Ring_620_x1 - Bolas now explode instantly.


It doesn't matter what the stat roll is on it? It rolled with 300 Int? Who cares. Same as 300 dex. Paragon points!!!!
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The new gear with all those nifty special effects? THEY'LL STILL HAVE STATS ON THEM.

So you're saying that if I want item X with

ItemPassive_Unique_Ring_620_x1 - Bolas now explode instantly.


It doesn't matter what the stat roll is on it? It rolled with 300 Int? Who cares. Same as 300 dex. Paragon points!!!!

LOL

man, you need a cup of coffee.

That item will be unique, aka a legendary, and more than less a class item. If you got INT on that item then it will be from the +1 or +2 random affix roll. Go bring that to the Mystic (if you plan on keeping the item) and it can be re-rolled at your expanse.

So it doesn't matter what the attribute roll will be. You can change it if you care so much about it.
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The new gear with all those nifty special effects? THEY'LL STILL HAVE STATS ON THEM.

So you're saying that if I want item X with

ItemPassive_Unique_Ring_620_x1 - Bolas now explode instantly.


It doesn't matter what the stat roll is on it? It rolled with 300 Int? Who cares. Same as 300 dex. Paragon points!!!!


what im saying is after a certain point that wont really matter because your 300 dex is less than 4% of your total dex DPS anyways. So if you cant find a dex one but it has bolas explode instantly your saying you wouldn't wear it?

This is is what im saying with L4N, at a certain point post mystic, post 8 other slots of new gear with high stats, post paragon points it will begin to PLATEAU with diminishing returns and level out with ANY new gear. How hard is that to understand? At that point which will happen and isnt too hard to reach its about the 5000-6000 mainstat range you WILL much rather have the X gear does X, L4N just so happens to be one of these and it is STILL from what we have seen thus far the only discipline regen set. It will still have very many uses because of this especially now that our discipline regen skills are being nerfed.

The disparity between gear now to L4N will only be shortned not widened post trifecta nerf and paragon points. In the end like i said earlier and i will say it again, a Paragon 900 DH wearing just pure stat points VS that same Paragon 900 DH but with maybe -800 dex but with X gear does X on several slots will be MUCH better. Not only will it have more builds and options but that DH will probably have more fun lol.

Your still too focused on stats, they are great on gear in the current metagame but eventually you will start to hit diminishing returns in the post paragon 2.0 and loot 2.0 world and said gear with big stats but no bonus would be better served with maybe weaker gear but better special abilities and bonuses that can greatly change the way you play and effectivly change your efficiency, builds, etc etc while the DH focused purely on Dprogress Epeen stats will be severely limiting themselves in options and game play and possibly even in game eDPS and eHP.
Edited by METATRON#1945 on 10/7/2013 6:48 PM PDT
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The new gear with all those nifty special effects? THEY'LL STILL HAVE STATS ON THEM.

So you're saying that if I want item X with



It doesn't matter what the stat roll is on it? It rolled with 300 Int? Who cares. Same as 300 dex. Paragon points!!!!


what im saying is after a certain point that wont really matter because your 300 dex is less than 4% of your total dex DPS anyways. So if you cant find a dex one but it has bolas explode instantly your saying you wouldn't wear it?


You are still stuck on this either/or line of thinking.

I'm saying that if I do want that item, I should care what else rolls on it. If the item rolls int, I might still use it, but I should want it to have dex. Your idea that that shouldn't matter and the effect is the only thing that matters is completely unbalanced.

10/07/2013 06:46 PMPosted by METATRON
This is is what im saying with L4N, at a certain point post mystic, post 8 other slots of new gear with high stats, post paragon points it will begin to PLATEAU with diminishing returns and level out with ANY new gear. How hard is that to understand?


I understand that you think that is what is going to happen....and I already said I think it's a pipe dream.

10/07/2013 06:46 PMPosted by METATRON
Your still too focused on stats, they are great on gear in the current metagame but eventually you will start to hit diminishing returns in the post paragon 2.0 and loot 2.0 world and said gear with big stats but no bonus would be better served with maybe weaker gear but better special abilities and bonuses that can greatly change the way you play and effectivly change your efficiency, builds, etc etc


Again, you're still stuck on this either/or mentality. The choice isn't

"Big Stat but no bonus"

or

"weaker gear but better special abilities"

How about gear with stat bonuses AND special abilities. That should be the ideal.

Having a system where special effects are the only thing that matters is just as imbalanced as having a system where stats are the only thing that matters.
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All this talk about L4N having end game potential... did anyone consider that it we have caps on our core DPS mods (CC, CHD, Atk Spd) then it would really make it worthwhile to go for gear that gives you + Max Disc instead of trying to reroll sh!tty L4Ns?

So, assuming that with ilvl 70 gear we can get... say +15 Disc on our items (SoJ, DML, Cloak, one handers etc) and maybe up to 30+ Max Disc with all new 4 piece Nat's, well we are looking at 75+ (not including one handers for another 30 Disc).

I'm curious, would such a huge bonus not be worthwhile over L4N? Forgive me if I am wrong, I haven't had the opportunity yet of trying L4N out...

Seeing that as we are yet to find out if anything from the initial datamine is even accurate about nerfs to our Disc, we might be in for a few positive surprises yet!

Silver
Edited by Silver#6986 on 10/7/2013 7:47 PM PDT
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All this talk about L4N having end game potential... did anyone consider that it we have caps on our core DPS mods (CC, CHD, Atk Spd) then it would really make it worthwhile to go for gear that gives you + Max Disc instead of trying to reroll sh!tty L4Ns?

So, assuming that with ilvl 70 gear we can get... say +15 Disc on our items (SoJ, DML, Cloak, one handers etc) and maybe up to 30+ Max Disc with all new 4 piece Nat's, well we are looking at 75+ (not including one handers for another 30 Disc).

I'm curious, would such a huge bonus not be worthwhile over L4N? Forgive me if I am wrong, I haven't had the opportunity yet of trying L4N out...

Seeing that as we are yet to find out if anything from the initial datamine is even accurate about nerfs to our Disc, we might be in for a few positive surprises yet!

Silver


of course, we don't even know how lvl 70 items are gonna be, it is very likely that every single item in the current game will be useless indeed. Why does it matter? Everyone is in the same boat anyways. We should just wait and find out. It is not like a gg mempo or a gg nat reflection will still be good when the lvl 70 items come out, but it will be useful until we are lvl 70 / found an upgrade.

The answer to Op's questions is really, it doesn't matter whether it is viable, there are so many different theory as to whether it will or will not be viable, why not just wait and see. You will need something to farm with when the xpac releases anyways.
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what im saying is after a certain point that wont really matter because your 300 dex is less than 4% of your total dex DPS anyways. So if you cant find a dex one but it has bolas explode instantly your saying you wouldn't wear it?


You are still stuck on this either/or line of thinking.

I'm saying that if I do want that item, I should care what else rolls on it. If the item rolls int, I might still use it, but I should want it to have dex. Your idea that that shouldn't matter and the effect is the only thing that matters is completely unbalanced.

10/07/2013 06:46 PMPosted by METATRON
This is is what im saying with L4N, at a certain point post mystic, post 8 other slots of new gear with high stats, post paragon points it will begin to PLATEAU with diminishing returns and level out with ANY new gear. How hard is that to understand?


I understand that you think that is what is going to happen....and I already said I think it's a pipe dream.

10/07/2013 06:46 PMPosted by METATRON
Your still too focused on stats, they are great on gear in the current metagame but eventually you will start to hit diminishing returns in the post paragon 2.0 and loot 2.0 world and said gear with big stats but no bonus would be better served with maybe weaker gear but better special abilities and bonuses that can greatly change the way you play and effectivly change your efficiency, builds, etc etc


Again, you're still stuck on this either/or mentality. The choice isn't

"Big Stat but no bonus"

or

"weaker gear but better special abilities"

How about gear with stat bonuses AND special abilities. That should be the ideal.

Having a system where special effects are the only thing that matters is just as imbalanced as having a system where stats are the only thing that matters.


Facepalm....I never said it was black and white I said that if you want it can be that way, of course L4N players will maximize what they can in every other slot like they currently do. What I'm saying is that once the characters plateu many will want the bonuses more than they do stats alone.

You make it sound like L4N is useless out the gate lol I'm arguing why it wont, the reason being its special bonus it applies, without that it's on the same boat as all the current gear like mempos etc will be, outclassed. Of course every who plans to use L4N will maxamise their gear with paragon points mystic and good gear in every other slot. That's a given and what I'm saying is eventually you will plateau and be the same with any other gear except what will set you apart is the special bonus not the extra stats.
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Actually if you read the datamined strings about the mystic, particularly:

ItemCannotBeEnchantedNoRandomAffixes - The mystic cannot enchant that item because it has no random affixes.


It seems to imply the mystic might only be able to reroll random affixes. If thats the case then the best course of action is to buy a garbage L4N set to reroll.

Nat's Soul - Buy the cheapest you can find since it only has one random affix and you'll reroll it

Nat's Shadow - Same as boots, only one random affix so buy the cheapest you can find with the skill bonus you want

Nat's Gaze - Socket + one garbage roll

Nat's Mark - The only piece you may need to spend a decent chunk of gold on.
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All this talk about L4N having end game potential... did anyone consider that it we have caps on our core DPS mods (CC, CHD, Atk Spd) then it would really make it worthwhile to go for gear that gives you + Max Disc instead of trying to reroll sh!tty L4Ns?

So, assuming that with ilvl 70 gear we can get... say +15 Disc on our items (SoJ, DML, Cloak, one handers etc) and maybe up to 30+ Max Disc with all new 4 piece Nat's, well we are looking at 75+ (not including one handers for another 30 Disc).

I'm curious, would such a huge bonus not be worthwhile over L4N? Forgive me if I am wrong, I haven't had the opportunity yet of trying L4N out...

Seeing that as we are yet to find out if anything from the initial datamine is even accurate about nerfs to our Disc, we might be in for a few positive surprises yet!

Silver


In terms of discipline usage +discipline gear can't compare to discipline regen, it's that simple, you can't perma vault you can't constantly drop jagged spikes etc etc. +max discipline helps for a bit then once your down to zero that's it, legacy Nats in the other hand allows for more spamming of discipline, punishment feedback loops infinite vault etc etc

The only reason new Nats it is better in any way is by raw stats alone.
Edited by METATRON#1945 on 10/7/2013 8:11 PM PDT
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All this talk about L4N having end game potential... did anyone consider that it we have caps on our core DPS mods (CC, CHD, Atk Spd) then it would really make it worthwhile to go for gear that gives you + Max Disc instead of trying to reroll sh!tty L4Ns?

So, assuming that with ilvl 70 gear we can get... say +15 Disc on our items (SoJ, DML, Cloak, one handers etc) and maybe up to 30+ Max Disc with all new 4 piece Nat's, well we are looking at 75+ (not including one handers for another 30 Disc).

I'm curious, would such a huge bonus not be worthwhile over L4N? Forgive me if I am wrong, I haven't had the opportunity yet of trying L4N out...

Seeing that as we are yet to find out if anything from the initial datamine is even accurate about nerfs to our Disc, we might be in for a few positive surprises yet!

Silver


In terms of discipline usage +discipline gear can't compare to discipline regen, it's that simple, you can't perma vault you can't constantly drop jagged spikes etc etc. +max discipline helps for a bit then once your down to zero that's it, legacy Nats in the other hand allows for more spamming of discipline, punishment feedback loops infinite vault etc etc

The only reason new Nats it is better in any way is by raw stats alone.


Hmm... I wonder how cheap sh!tty L4Ns are going for on the AH currently...

Silver
Edited by Silver#6986 on 10/7/2013 8:15 PM PDT
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You are still stuck on this either/or line of thinking.

I'm saying that if I do want that item, I should care what else rolls on it. If the item rolls int, I might still use it, but I should want it to have dex. Your idea that that shouldn't matter and the effect is the only thing that matters is completely unbalanced.

I understand that you think that is what is going to happen....and I already said I think it's a pipe dream.

Again, you're still stuck on this either/or mentality. The choice isn't

"Big Stat but no bonus"

or

"weaker gear but better special abilities"

How about gear with stat bonuses AND special abilities. That should be the ideal.

Having a system where special effects are the only thing that matters is just as imbalanced as having a system where stats are the only thing that matters.


Facepalm....I never said it was black and white I said that if you want it can be that way, of course L4N players will maximize what they can in every other slot like they currently do. What I'm saying is that once the characters plateu many will want the bonuses more than they do stats alone.


You are contradicting yourself a bit.........

If your assertion is that stats on gear won't matter because they'll be so marginalized by paragon points, than what do L4N users need to "maximize"? If stats don't matter I might as well roll anything else than stats. Stack thorns. Maybe health globe bonus. Anything but stats.

Is that what you're saying? Cuz that sounds terribly unrealistic. Hence my pipe dream comment.

Blizz should be looking to balance all affixes so they are usable at all levels.

And I never implied L4N is going to be useless. I have 3 sets in my stash to reroll. I'm just not under the impression that it has any reasonable chance to be BIS at all like you implied.
Edited by OhHellzNo#1945 on 10/7/2013 8:46 PM PDT
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I said in the beginning stats will matter in the short term in the long haul stats on gear will matter less an less and what will be much more important will be special bonuses and % based items. legacy Nats is one of those special sets, if by level 70 and your plateued on stats and no other items in the four slots L4N provides give a better special bonus then it can be BIS is what I'm saying. If it's not it will still be useful for the discipline regen than items in te same exact slots that provide nothing will be is what I am saying.
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Legacy nat set still very useful atm. I don't see why not it can't be useful in the expansion?
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Is it confirmed that the mystic can reroll stats on non-loot 2.0 items, or even legacy pieces?
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