Diablo® III

What's wrong with Diablo 3?

Once the initial newness wore off and you were killing Diablo for the 70th time, there was no other purpose to play the game other than to grind out alts and MF sets, so that you could grind out gear and make leveling alts more easy. It's been said multiple times in this thread that that was D2's "End Game", and it was grueling and ridiculous, and I don't miss it at all.

No offence, but again, maybe you just didn't like the game. ARPGs aren't for everyone. The departure from this formula in D3 that you so laud is the reason why people who _did_ actually like D2 are upset with it.

Diablo 2 forced you to power through 60-70 levels

I guess. Those of us who enjoyed it called that part "playing the game".

10/15/2013 09:02 PMPosted by Omniance
and place specific points into specific areas at specific leveling thresholds with unerring rigidity. It wasn't much of a choice, it was really your only option in most cases.

Your "only option" was to actually spend your skill points! Gasp! Actually that wasn't strictly true, but I'll give you that most people chose that path.

10/15/2013 09:02 PMPosted by Omniance
I have no idea when or how you played the game

True dat.

10/15/2013 09:02 PMPosted by Omniance
but it mustn't have been at higher levels like 85+ and it mustn't have been after D2's initial release

You think it was before D2's initial release?

The game took time, and by time, I mean days just to get back to the enjoyable parts

You seem to feel that only the highest levels were "the enjoyable parts". Thanks to D2's skill system, I found levelling each different build to be a new experience, and in fact one of the "enjoyable parts".

10/15/2013 09:02 PMPosted by Omniance
Diablo 3 isn't like this at all, much to my thanks. I do not have to reroll a Demon Hunter 3-4 times to try out all the different specs and off-builds.

The prospect is unappetising in D3 precisely _because_ we can respec at will. Hence, those 3-4 playthroughs would be exactly the same. With a decent skill system, you'd be able to watch each build develop and grow in different ways as you levelled.

10/15/2013 09:02 PMPosted by Omniance
Every day I log into D3 and I make choices. "Do I want to run Rocket Hunter spec? Rapid Fire? Bola Shot with Impending Doom or Bitter Pill, maybe even Thunder Ball? Do I want to try Smoke Screen with Shadow Power, or Caltrops with Sentries? What kind of Sentries do I want to use?"

Deciding which 6 skills you want hotkeyed for the next 2 minutes isn't a meaningful choice.

10/15/2013 09:02 PMPosted by Omniance
When thinking this in Diablo 2 terms it was "Do I want to level a Trapssassin over the next week? Or do I want to re-level my Sorceress and try a Hydra spec since they rebuffed them after LoD's release? Maybe I can try grinding up that Teeth Necro I've been thinking of?"

Ahh, good times.
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10/15/2013 10:39 PMPosted by ZRaiyne
No cost respect is the cause of FOTM. If you can respec anytime for no charge and gear affects them all equally. You have no need to think or tweak about building vs your weaknesses. Go with the highest output, switch it up if you encounter something it's not strong vs.


The cost of that respec is the re-gearing itself since CM wizard gears are vastly different from Archon wizard gears. Applying the skill change directly will mostly result to inefficiency and even death to most classes.

There are many more builds out there that do not funnel into specifics. With GAH trading only, it is very challenging to build these characters efficiently making you think about alternatives and even subsidizing on various areas to compensate.

I will also mention that there are many more hidden builds out there that need more than just a hot swap of certain gears to work efficiently. :)



Assuming builds are based on gear (which was the goal from beta). Re-gearing is essentially re-speccing (re-specialization).

The problem with that currently is that different builds do not require different gear/stats for the most part. Like I stated before the three hundreth spear is a exception. Loot2.0 is on the right track.

On the flip side : Para2.0 may actually work against loot2.0 if there is no respec cost attached to it. Remember when people switched to mf gear just to get the last hit on elites? Well unlimited para stat re-allocation would have the same effect. Still after the same gear, now just changing stats to make up the difference. A certain level of this isn't bad, it will allow you to use a 200 stam peice vs a 200 primary stat whatever that dropped for you.

Basically para2.0 stats need have a cost for respec that's just enough to prevent swapping on the fly. NV removal would be enough to prevent mf swapping, a slight gold cost would promote intelligent pre-planning and help assure gold stays a currency after AH removal.
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Assuming builds are based on gear (which was the goal from beta). Re-gearing is essentially re-speccing (re-specialization).

The problem with that currently is that different builds do not require different gear/stats for the most part. Like I stated before the three hundreth spear is a exception. Loot2.0 is on the right track.


Yes you are correct. That mechanic is exactly what Loot 2.0 will hopefully build upon in the future.

But since it will be a while before it gets here, here are other builds that utilize the same gear reliant mechanics that will be expanded on Loot 2.0.

1. 0-Dog WD
2. Infinite Z-bear WD
3. IAS - Well of Soul - Fear WD
4. Freeze-Lock AOE WD
5. CGC Legacy Nat DH
6. CC-Stun Implosion Monk
7. Nirvana Monk
8. Infinite HotA Barb
9. Frost AOE wiz
10. ....and many more i will not mention. :)

______________________________________________

Troll Hunting MVP
Sanguine Palladian Autonomous Noob Kicker™ (S.P.A.N.K.)
AKA The Black Brigade; We Hunt For Sport ®
Caution: I'm a dude.
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Excellent thread.

If they mixed D2's style to D3's modern system and somehow fused the idea's of the old and new arpg; then i'm sure much of what player's want in D3, could happen based on much of what i read on these forums.

This forum site is more active than sc2. Get the dev's to fix a fantastic game, folks.

Bump.
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10/15/2013 09:40 PMPosted by ZRaiyne
Yes, I've switched over to a self found style of play, in order to try and find some sort of rewarding gameplay within this mess. Yeah, it hasn't gone too well, unfortunately. Does this mean I don't know how to play? Hardly. I've tried a lot of stuff before when I used to rely on the AH, but it simply wasn't fulfilling my expectations for this game.


An obvious lie. *chuckle*

I have trained myself to specialize in troll hunting, i know by experience what your kind does as an excuse for their own mediocrity and lack of understanding. You seem to be more creative with making excuses rather than playing the game, no?

Trash players will always hide behind this excuse. There are many legit self-found players of course, but you're not one of them unfortunately. How can i tell you say? Well, one dead give away is that you have no other functional characters aside from your claimed "self-found" DH.

This claim of yours points to another issue in what you've said. I am sure that you have no experience whatsoever in using other builds. You cannot even hope to build a WD zero dog or even a 3.01 aps CM wiz using self-found with such a low kill count.

Yet, you were mentioning that you had experience right?

Your intention of forcing yourself into such masochism is pointless. This game has always centered around trading as a fundamental for character progression. That in turn makes you an idiot for not utilizing this mechanic to sell any of your goods, regardless if you choose to play self-found.

Aside from that, your kill count is too little to warrant adequate self-found upgrades being that this game is a grinding game from the beginning. It seems that all your excuses point to you as the failure at end game, eh?

Again, there is nothing wrong with this game. The coming RoS changes and improvements will only improve upon an already great game.

Unfortunately, not the same can be said to you. As to the recollection of this conversation, there is definitely something wrong with you as a person and as a player of a trading ARPG like Diablo.

Quit, it might be better for you to find other avenues of enjoyment. :)

______________________________________________

Troll Hunting MVP
Sanguine Palladian Autonomous Noob Kicker™ (S.P.A.N.K.)
AKA The Black Brigade; We Hunt For Sport ®
Caution: I'm a dude.


Are you done pumping your ego, sir self proclaimed MVP? No, I'm not lying. If I'm not playing other classes, that's because I tried them and didn't find them appealing. Since launch I've been sticking to the DH, because it's the class I enjoy the most, whether you want to accept that or not. It's irrelevant if you believe the way I'm playing or not. Once again, it's something completely irrelevant to the points being made, and I honestly don't care if you think they're excuses. You're still trying to derail this thread into a lame pissing contest ignoring the main points made in the OP.

You don't need a high EK count to realize this system offers zero character development (You could actually see that with the rather limited beta access they gave before launch). You don't need godly gear to realize how bad the focus on max level is for a game like Diablo, and why the lack of content updates to support the current model mean a premature death for the game, or to find out that pretty much half of the supposed choices you have within the skill system are complete garbage. All you need is a bit of analysis, than any average person can perform, or at least I'd expect them to be able to do so.

In the end, the quality of my gear or what I choose to do in the game is completely irrelevant to these points, whether you want to acknowledge the actual arguments instead of trying to attack me personally by taunting me into your little epeen competition like it meant anything. Yet here you are, stubbornly insisting in bringing that up, as one last resource to salvage an already demonstrably wrong argument from being buried, again. You're just trying to build a series of ad hominems in order to ignore the actual arguments being made. For someone who claims to "hunt trolls" (whatever that might be), you don't seem to be very skilled at preventing yourself from falling into their behavioral patterns. Ironic, isn't it?

So yeah, I'm always open to a good discussion, but after this post, you won't see me acknowledging the personal attacks you're trying to use to derail the thread into something I didn't intend it to address. You can keep believing I'm a noob and an inexperienced blahber if you want to do so. I'll just ignore it and address actual arguments regarding the problems in the game. The choice is yours.
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Well writen OP. +1 for everything you said.

I'm also playing PoE and it's much better game then D3 IMHO. It,s incredible that a low budget team can do a better ''Diablo'' then the high budget ''D3-team'' LOL!
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Well writen OP. +1 for everything you said.

I'm also playing PoE and it's much better game then D3 IMHO. It,s incredible that a low budget team can do a better ''Diablo'' then the high budget ''D3-team'' LOL!


For me, PoE and D3 showed how different philosophies can work in different situations.

I'm playing D3 self-found, which has shown me a good deal about how the game was intended to be from the devs' perspective. The game is amazingly entertaining this way, but just making the game a little more difficult didn't really balance things out with an AH that has no real restrictions.

I tried PoE self-found, and it's barely even an option. The game's core concepts have been designed with trading in mind, and the end-game was designed with team play in mind. They're more restricting in many ways, but that adds a sense of value for a lot of things.

Of course, once you get to the end game they both share the same big problems so it's hard to say which is better.
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In my opinion, there are two main flaws with D3.

1) Itemization

Hard to find items, with low chances to drops should always roll decently, they should not have a chance to be so bad that they are useless. However, because they are guaranteed to be useful, they should be very rare to find. I know many people get annoyed, but I think D2 did this right. I also think gear should not have a level requirement, but a stat requirement and that leads me to my next complaint.

2) character development

We should be able to put our stat points in where we want. This is not because I want the choice 9although, I don't see how that hurts) it is because items should have stat requirements. This way, you game make end game items drop at low levels (like in D2) which makes everything we do prior to 60 not pointless. That is a huge factor.

I also think that we are too dependent on the boring "main stat" system which is just not fun or interesting at all. D2 also had this right.

Skill points, while I agree D2s system is not the best. I think the idea of putting points into a skill you want to choose and watching it get stronger and stronger is VERY satisfying, much more satisfying than what we have now. I don't care if you can respec or not, but the current skill system doesn't really make me feel like I am getting stronger throughout the game. The only thing that makes me get stronger is gear, but skills have nothing to contribute at all, which is boring.

I will maybe add more later, because there are definitely more flaws. I know this game is not D2, and I do not want it to be a D2 clone, but I think D2 did a lot of things right, which is why we are still talking about it and why so many people bring it up.
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You even slipped by saying above that you have never tried the mechanics of other classes because you were uninterested. :)


It's not a slip. I play the DH because I enjoy it, period. As I mentioned, trying other classes wasn't nearly as appealing as I thought it would be. Within the DH class itself, I've tried a lot of stuff, and can understand what works and what doesn't.

And no, You don't need high end gear ego boosting BS to understand basic maths. You don't need BiS gear to understand Rapid Fire is light years away in terms of efficiency when compared to cluster arrow, or any other hatred spender, do you?

That's precisely the point. The skill system itself is flawed from it's conception, mostly because every bit of power is entirely derived from gear alone, because of the blatant omission of a robust character development system. I don't know how else to explain this.

I'm playing D3 self-found, which has shown me a good deal about how the game was intended to be from the devs' perspective. The game is amazingly entertaining this way, but just making the game a little more difficult didn't really balance things out with an AH that has no real restrictions.


This is actually a good point. If you notice, on low MP levels, where healthpools are closer to the original design, a lot of stuff can work, and you can have some actual diversity. That still doesn't make all skills viable, because there are still plenty of them that are complete garbage, but you certainly have a bit more room to experiment without having to be pressed by that glaring mistake of obscenely overscaling them with the gearcheck levels, specially above MP5.

For example, my current build with basic self found gear is working nicely in MP3. It's got a nice synergy going on between entangling shot, frost arrow and cull the weak, with some support fire from sentries since it's a kiting build. The build seems to be somewhat efficient in terms of damage for that level with that gearset. I could probably push it up to MP4 without much trouble. However, Trying the same build above MP5 is a pain in the !@#, because the skills themselves are still tuned to deal with relatively reasonably sized healthpools, instead of obscenely overgrown ones, whereas ridiculously overpowered skills, such as rapid fire, are clearly the best option for a DH in MP10, regardless of gear quality. To some degree, spike traps work as well, but they aren't nearly as efficient as RF for evident reason.

That change alone (ridiculously overscaled healthpools) has completely destroyed the viability of many skills, and even ranged playstyles as a whole have been gimped to the ground in high MP levels, because kiting those humongous punchbags for a long time results in a monumental edps loss. It's just so much easier to stack some defensive skills, and spam whatever biggest skill you've got available while soaking incoming damage through life leech.

The thing is, gearcheck levels aren't even difficult, because the content is entirely outgearable thanks to the design that's been implemented. In these terms, someone playing with ghetto self found gear playing MP1can be just as challenged as a wallet warrior playing MP10. Once again, we find a case where linear progression becomes problematic for Diablo 3, and why periodic content updates are mandatory to keep the game thriving thanks to this design. It's the main reason why people keep asking for additional content. The system itself is only partially implemented, because the periodic content updates to keep max level gameplay fresh aren't even being issued.

Not like a proper ARPG would need them, anyways, but by now I think it's safe to assume a lot of people understand this focus on max level gameplay demands those periodic updates to keep the game alive for extended periods of time, whether Blizzard plans to issue them or not. Heck, they have a perfect example right where they based this dumbed down game (WoW), so I can't even understand how did they not see this coming.

I tried PoE self-found, and it's barely even an option. The game's core concepts have been designed with trading in mind, and the end-game was designed with team play in mind. They're more restricting in many ways, but that adds a sense of value for a lot of things.


It's a fair observation. ARPGs were never designed for you to find all your gear on your own. Trading is a part of the charm in this kind of game, even though I must admit I've often found myself trying to deal with some stupid scammer, which makes the overall trade experience quite frustrating by times, but you learn to deal with that at some point.

In D3 self found is just a way to try and squeeze some reward out of this unrewarding gold grinding treadmill, I guess. It's how I see it, at least. The fact this self found movement emerged is just a sign of how horribly frustrating the current itemization is, to the point where the only way to feel like you can progress is by gimping yourself to give some sense of slight progression, if at all. Since some weeks I switched to that playstyle just for that, and despite not being nearly as addictive as good old D2 MF runs, at least you can come across some slight upgrades somewhat consistently, even if by community standards you're just wearing garbage.

I honestly don't mind somewhat restricting rulesets. In fact, I welcome them as a legitimate challenge. That's why I consider commitment such a pivotal ingredient of a legitimate ARPG experience. Having it all available just doesn't convey the same rewarding feeling, even less when you can't even evolve predefined skills in any other way than monetized gear like it happens in D3.
TBH, the only element I find truly compelling in D3 is the fantastic combat engine. The "A" is definitely there. Sadly, The "RPG" is not.
Edited by Blashyrkh#1824 on 10/16/2013 3:38 PM PDT
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10/16/2013 03:34 PMPosted by Blashyrkh
TBH, the only element I find truly compelling in D3 is the fantastic combat engine

Yup. Somehow they managed to screw up nearly everything else. Honestly I don't even see how it's possible. It's in every single area of the game. Itemization, stat system, skill system, replayability factors; it is all just completely borked across the board.

The vision for this game was just absurdly limited from the very start. If D3 were a car, it would have the hottest body and the best leather seats; with a moped engine, a cassette player, rolldown windows, no cruise control, and manual transmission. They focused too narrowly on only a few features, and skimped badly on the rest.
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10/14/2013 01:11 PMPosted by Msedek
I understand what to say.. I play PoE too and was a d1/d2 player but I like D3 as it is... I just adapted to what I got when I bought the game.. If they do major or minor changes to it with RoS I will adapt again.. you know look at the nature from the past 70 millions years.. adaptation it's they key of success.. ask dinosaurs


I know this thread is not about science but I just wanted to mention that most everything you learned in school is a lie especially "science". You don't know that the earth is 70 million years old and nobody can prove that. There still isn't one piece of evidence to support evolution and never will be. All previous "evidence" has been debunked. There are however very many people that can prove that the earth is less than 7 thousand years old...

Anyway, I agree with OP. Everyone just rushes to 60. I don't have an exact fix but what we basically need is to have the previous levels affect the final outcome of your character.
Edited by Sergey#1200 on 10/16/2013 4:31 PM PDT
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10/16/2013 03:34 PMPosted by Blashyrkh
Not like a proper ARPG would need them, anyways, but by now I think it's safe to assume a lot of people understand this focus on max level gameplay demands those periodic updates to keep the game alive for extended periods of time, whether Blizzard plans to issue them or not. Heck, they have a perfect example right where they based this dumbed down game (WoW), so I can't even understand how did they not see this coming.


I personally don't think periodic updates is a great solution, although it depends on the time span in between. If it's around half a year per update, I can see it working. If it's around 2 months, I would personally not like it. The feeling of every gear you work for becoming useless every 2 months is a bit depressing.

I would at least want to see a little more effort from Devs in finding an alternative solution. I believe Ladder will act in the same way as periodic updates in solving a lot of economic problems. If they can add more diversity in skill paths and item paths, along with the random map generation of Nephalem Trials(which may or may not be a flop for different reasons, I'd have to see for myself), I think the game would be pretty close in matching all the benefits that periodic updates would bring without the negative side effects.
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10/16/2013 03:34 PMPosted by Blashyrkh
t's not a slip. I play the DH because I enjoy it, period. As I mentioned, trying other classes wasn't nearly as appealing as I thought it would be. Within the DH class itself, I've tried a lot of stuff, and can understand what works and what doesn't.


We all played a DH because it was enjoyable, but that doesn't answer the question now does it?

Again, the question is what do you know about the mechanics given that you say you have never played any other class properly nor have you pushed your DH into any specific build?

Come on, how about you try to answer at least and stop answering defensively. I was expecting a little bit more from you since you seem to be rather creative with writing walls of text.

So tell me, what builds have you tried with your DH? How about you show me through a run the differences of every build that you have found out and far in the MP system can you take them.

You have put a heavy burden on yourself when you spoke for the entirety of the game. I want to know personally if you know what your are talking about. Let us put this knowledge of yours to the test shall we?

______________________________________________

Troll Hunting MVP
Sanguine Palladian Autonomous Noob Kicker™ (S.P.A.N.K.)
AKA The Black Brigade; We Hunt For Sport ®
Caution: I'm a dude.
Edited by ZRaiyne#6337 on 10/16/2013 5:46 PM PDT
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You have put a heavy burden on yourself when you spoke for the entirety of the game. I want to know personally if you know what your are talking about. Let us put this knowledge of yours to the test shall we?


I haven't really followed much of the useless banter between you two, but such tests aren't necessary in determining what's right and what's wrong. The best analysts for most games in this world are not the best players by any means. If you have to throw credibility as the only argument towards why you are skeptical about what a person says, then I am very skeptical about your sense of logic.
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game should be FAR more random and dynamic instead of knowing what and where events will trigger; makes farming NO brainer but kills re-playability aside from the mindless grind we are all doing :/

/thread
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10/16/2013 03:34 PMPosted by Blashyrkh
The skill system itself is flawed from it's conception, mostly because every bit of power is entirely derived from gear alone, because of the blatant omission of a robust character development system. I don't know how else to explain this.


Yep, characters are not developed in this game. Some skills and runes are unlocked. The only power inherent in those are stated in the tooltips. All other power (dps) is derived from gear and gear alone.

You cannot make a skill more powerful by training in it, because you CAN'T train a skill in this game.

I'd love to try builds other than what I use on my characters, but I can't. Every time I've tried, I've died over and over. Simply because my gear won't support any other build.

And that's the point, it isn't that my skills aren't any good, they are what they are because they cannot be changed by training them. It's all about gear.
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Nice OP.

D3 is a really beautiful game in terms of graphics. PoE can't hold a candle to it. However, PoE's game play is a bagillion times more interesting than D3.

Can you imagine how crazy sick PoE would be if those guys had blizzard's budget? Wow. Just wow. It could have easily been arguably the best ARPG of all time.
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