Diablo® III

What's wrong with Diablo 3?

The reason for account inspection upon first glance is to screen for trolling on the first level. The second would be to check their posts and logic viability. The third and last is to actually run with them and allow them the freedom to prove themselves.

Sounds about right and fair, no?


Account inspection is just a generalization. Are you going to claim that everyone that has 3 Paragon 100 characters has more knowledge about how the game should be than people that don't?

The only thing that should matter is what they say and the logic presented to back it up. For example:

10/16/2013 06:32 PMPosted by ZRaiyne
Let me ask you, if you are buying a house would you ask a car salesman to give you a rough idea about what the good deals are? If your answer is yes, then read no further. rofl.


If he's going to tell me which houses are good deals, I will certainly ask him why he thinks that way. If the logic he presents seems legitimate, I will absolutely at least consider the houses he suggested.

Again, there is nothing flawed about this logic. It is plain common sense to check credibility, especially from those that claim experience in a game like this.


Checking credibility is a simple shortcut in life. Are you going to blindly follow what a real estate agent says about which houses are good deals? I can admit that it's better than blindly following what a care salesman says, but you really need to think about what either of them says. When you're trying to throw credibility as the only measurement of how legitimate a person's views are, you're basically saying that you simply don't have the intelligence to think for yourself on the subject.

In other words, you can look his account and say that he probably doesn't know what he's talking about. It's only a generalization, and it doesn't necessarily mean he certainly doesn't know what he's talking about like you're saying. If everything the OP said had bad or no logic following it up, then I wouldn't even bother to post in this thread. The OP gave his point of view with a very detailed explanation of why he feels that way.

I wouldn't care if the OP never played a character past lvl30. His logic is solid and his views are very agreeable. If you can't think of actual counter-logic to disprove him, then I have nothing else to say to you.
Edited by North2#1299 on 10/16/2013 7:14 PM PDT
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Posted by: North2

Account inspection is just a generalization. Are you going to claim that everyone that has 3 Paragon 100 characters has more knowledge about how the game should be than people that don't?


My point exactly, that is why i usually escalate it to stage 3 which is proving it in reality.

I have said that, no? There are many trolls out there that have high Paragon levels and they are the ones that i target the most. As i have mentioned, i have quite a collection of them already uploaded for everyone's viewing pleasure.

Posted by: North2

If he's going to tell me which houses are good deals, I will certainly ask him why he thinks that way. If the logic he presents seems legitimate, I will absolutely at least consider the houses he suggested.


Then why even waste time asking a car salesman then? You are asking the wrong person from the start if your purpose is finding a house. Regardless of whether he might have bit of good input, you are still in the wrong yard.

Again with this word, "seems legitmate". Take note, reality agents and all that are in field sales are trained to make their proposals sweet and alluring. That is very basic.

Meaning, if you were streetwise you'd skip that reality agent too and go straight to the broker and ask people in the neighborhood that have been there for a long time.

That is how you get your facts straight. Now that is sound logic. :)

Posted by: North2

In other words, you can look his account and say that he probably doesn't know what he's talking about. If everything the OP said had bad or no logic following it up, then I wouldn't even bother to post in this thread. The OP gave his point of view with a very detailed explanation of why he feels that way. If you can't think of actual counter-logic to disprove him, then I have nothing else to say to you.


That is why i have told you to read, North2.

So that you will understand the roots of where the first signs of aggression began. Was it in my first post when i too shared my opinion about the skill system or when he answered my comment with rather snide remarks?

You tell me. :)

As i have said, i am ready to prove my point of view of mechanic flexibility in real gameplay. However, i cannot say that it can be true too for the opposing party.

______________________________________________

Troll Hunting MVP
Sanguine Palladian Autonomous Noob Kicker™ (S.P.A.N.K.)
AKA The Black Brigade; We Hunt For Sport ®
Caution: I'm a dude.
Edited by ZRaiyne#6337 on 10/16/2013 7:28 PM PDT
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Ok, I took a look at the root of it.

10/15/2013 08:57 PMPosted by ZRaiyne
The skill system itself is bland and uninspired, featuring way more garbage skills than D2's outdated skill system ever did, and the endgame is not what it should be for an ARPG. Again, read what I mentioned about max level gameplay and it's dependance on constant content updates. Without such updates, the game's as good as dead, and will inevitably become boring within a few months, just like it did after launch, after loosing 80% of it's playerbase within the first year, while Diablo 2 stood strong for years. There's literally zero character development in this game, and every character is just as any other of the same class because of this. Flexibility? There's no flexibility in a system that forces you into FOTM builds because the people tuning skills have no sense of balance, and seem overly concerned with dictating how players should play, instead of providing a robust skill system that thoroughly encourages player creativity through properly balanced options.


What i see is nothing but a wall of text that is defended by words and not an actual gameplay showcase. How about you show us a run and we'll tell you where you went wrong with your build? What you account for as experiences are nothing but qualms from players who cannot even build their accounts properly given the time spent in the game.

On a personal note, you have barely any progress in this game let alone assume that you have pushed such diversification to the limit. Tell me, what kinds of builds have you built? Upon viewing your profile, I don't even know where that DH of yours excels in.

This game has never dictated the path which you choose to build your characters. For one, it has never dictated me from building whatever i wanted. Again, you are assuming on the basis of personal feelings.

There are so many builds out there that are fun to play, relying on creativity and timing rather than pure damage efficiency. However, i highly doubt that you have played any of them as we can see that you have already reached this saturation point you seem to be defending so much.

I will not comment on your pointless wall of text any further, unless you can prove yourself in a real run. Let's see how much you know that you can so easily justify blandness with a snap of a finger. :)

You haven't even ventured in the brawling aspect of the game now have you?

You'd be surprised at the variety of builds you can play in that area of the game too. Just because you cannot do doesn't mean that it is bad. The fault is just in you.

Please, you speak of illusion like you understand it truly. You are however betrayed by your account which speaks for itself. Now that is a prime example of player delusion.

Don't you agree?

Oh, Diablo 2 stood strong? With enigma as the end game build you mean? Please do not make me laugh. There is only one dominating build in that game.

Naked sorcs and pigeon holed Enigma blinkers. Diversity my crack. :)

______________________________________________

Troll Hunting MVP
Sanguine Palladian Autonomous Noob Kicker™ (S.P.A.N.K.)
AKA The Black Brigade; We Hunt For Sport ®
Caution: I'm a dude.


His 'wall of text' was needlessly aggressive at points, so he was certainly the one that started the aggression. Your response was to completely ignore everything he says, be aggressive in return, and ask for credibility.

You're both acting childish, and credibility has nothing to do with whether the OP's logic is right or wrong.
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His 'wall of text' was needlessly aggressive at points, so he was certainly the one that started the aggression. Your response was to completely ignore everything he says, be aggressive in return, and ask for credibility.


Yes, the way i answered is of course intended. I do not regret my aggression since i speak entirely on experience and i am even willing to vouch for it in fact in reality.

That is the difference. :)

So in turn, asking Blakshyr out of curiosity to show me what he is talking about is not wrong now is it? After all the only way to prove a point is to showcase a real run.

10/16/2013 07:28 PMPosted by North2
You're both acting childish, and credibility has nothing to do with whether the OP's logic is right or wrong.


Being childish in a forum congested with children can be expected to the best of us, but that does not mean that the soundness of my argument will diminish because of references on intonation.

The point still stands however that regardless of childish aggression, do my points strike true to the core? The only answer to that is a yes or a no.

As i have said, troll hunting. I am literally very good at it. :)

______________________________________________

Troll Hunting MVP
Sanguine Palladian Autonomous Noob Kicker™ (S.P.A.N.K.)
AKA The Black Brigade; We Hunt For Sport ®
Caution: I'm a dude.
Edited by ZRaiyne#6337 on 10/16/2013 7:46 PM PDT
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I am playing D2 now. A sorc.
So I was selling gear the other day and I noticed my shield was some crappy rare. What to do?
Go farm a 2 OS shield and pop a shael eth or maybe eth lum in that baby ( I made a rhyme bone shield) and Im good to go. Still using that shield in Hell. This sort of freedom is lacking in almost every one of D3s systems.
Yes, the example is a runeword and I'm not arguing for the return of runes per se, just using it to make the point.
D2s systems are open and somewhat unpredictable/open to experimentation. D3's are not. They are closed and linear. That is the games problem. Keep the combat engine and gold pick up and gut the rest, in stages, replacing it with a real Diablo game.
PS Please give us a Bnet with a functional social system, you know, like the one you had for over a decade. How anyone at Blizzard thought this was an improvement baffles me.
Edited by Silocibe#1270 on 10/16/2013 8:17 PM PDT
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Good post OP.

I've been thinking about it, and for me, the main thing wrong with Diablo 3 is the lack of feeling of reward/progression that comes with any good RPG. It's a mechanic which is present in any good RPG, but a game does not necessarily have to be a RPG to have it - that feeling of "just one more level" or "just 5 more minutes" or "just one more Baal run", or whatever it is that makes you compulsively want to play.

Diablo 2 gave me that feeling in huge amounts. While levelling, I always felt that something good was around the corner if I just kept playing. Starting naked in normal difficulty, anything I found was an improvement, so playing was always rewarding. Once I made the jump to nightmare, I had the chance of finding endgame viable gear - Occy, Vampire Gaze, Shaftstop, Skullders, etc etc. Even getting to Act 3 felt like I was getting somewhere because I knew that skill GCs could drop there. Levelling up would increase my skills, and give me stat points which I could use to equip new gear, so the entire time I played I always felt motivated to keep playing, there was always something to look forward to.

Diablo 3 completely lacks that feeling. There was only one time during the whole game that I ever got it, and it was at about level 15. I had started fresh, so my gear was poor, and the option of crafting was really appealing because there was a realistic chance of an improvement to my gear. But then, I wanted gold for my stash. And for my artisans. And I remember thinking - "damn, I need to keep playing to build up my gold reserves to spend on all this awesome stuff!".

I got that feeling I chase once from D3, and once only. I soon realised that the entire game revolves around level 60, and thus levelling is an entirely redundant and unenjoyable process. You never get any viable end game gear while levelling (except maybe something 1 in a million like Leoric's signet), and you don't have any real say in developing a character due to the dumbed down skill and stat system. Once you hit 60 it's not much better. The itemisation is bland and pretty much all "builds" use the same gear, which has 2 big effects on the game. First, 99% of gear is trash because of how bad the skill and item systems are, meaning that you generally have no sense of reward while playing, and that you also don't look forward to playing because the chances of anything good dropping are so minimal. Second there's nothing special about any build, which eliminates any incentive to roll new characters or spend time specialising existing characters, which in turn means there's never any feeling of progress, achievement or accomplishment so critical to any RPG.

I recently played the game FTL, and while it's certainly not an ARPG it felt more like Diablo than D3 ever did. The design is simple, and it uses well established game design techniques. At its core it's simple - kill stuff, level up and get items so that you can kill more stuff etc etc. On the surface this appears to be the same as D3, but the difference is that FTL ALWAYS has something right there, a carrot on a stick, that motivates you to keep playing. You can always picture how good it will be when you get that next upgrade, how it will change the game, make you more powerful, and you can always clearly see the steps you need to take to achieve that upgrade. Combine that with a randomised loot system (which, sadly, is better designed than D3's because of the need to make trade offs and real decisions), and you have a 2-man indie game which blows D3 away. Sad, really.
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Posts: 94
Best post I have seen in a long time. Thank you OP for articulating something that has been on my mind since release. +1. There are no difficult choices in D3, and there's no character development. Until this is fixed we're going to be stuck with a shallow beat em up.
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Posts: 517
What can I say, Blashyrhk? I agree entirely. (links below)

Though even if you and I know what's wrong with D3, there's no guarantee those things will necessarily be properly alleviated. Ah, well.

What you said about PoE's 'debuff' construct was interesting. I think that D2 actually secretly had similar dynamics with hit recovery/curses/slowing and threat diversity.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/10196080373
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/10195530304
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/10103580276
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9661446312
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9281618855
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9280358173
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8891689660

Hopefully you watch Extra Credits (if not, I recommend it)

08/22/2013 06:30 AMPosted by Magna
Remember in Diablo 1? And 2? It was fun to just create new characters and play them. For the game itself. But now everything that's relevant occurs at endgame. I noticed the slogan 'endgame for everybody' since that's clearly where they want players to hang out with something to do. But the fact that they don't seem to address playthroughs and replayability is a travesty.
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Posts: 517
What does a good skill system look like?

The "Diablo way" has typically been, at its most efficient, to spam one all-powerful skill the majority of the time. The most powerful builds typically involve pumping up one skill to the max and using it to destroy 95% of what you encounter.

This must change.

There must be a distinction between Primary and Supplementary skills. The Diablo 3 system fails catastrophically here. Every single skill is lumped together in one giant pool, and then each fills one of six skill slots. The natural thing to do is to pick one (sometimes two) main attacks, and pair it with supplementary skills to boost efficiency in one way or another. The Passive system has been reduced to providing mere efficiency boosts or breaking systems.

Thing is, there's no reason to pack more main attacks. D3 provides few in-game incentives that would render different skills for different situations necessary. You're fine with just one or two, and from there it's a power game.

And in D2, there's more diversity (resists/immunities, monster diversity) that provides incentive to pack different attack types, yet the skill-point-derived strength of skills punishes investment in multiple skills.

Each is at odds with one another.

What we need is a game environment that provides incentive to possess and use a variety of attacks depending on the situation, and a skill system that does not punish the player in carrying multiple types of attacks.

This would allow for gameplay depth - providing multiple tools with which to overcome a particular, and different, situations. Furthermore, with appropriate limitations on such a system, and appropriate content diversity, you can maintain healthy build diversity and customization options. Good implementation will see each character able to reach a good balance between jack-of-all-trades and all-in-gambits, where each character still has strengths and weaknesses, but has diversity within each of those.

Begin with a distinction between main 'attacks' and other supplementary skills and effects. We should be able to choose about 4 of these main attacks, which can be made to differ in many ways such as damage type/cost/mechanics. This part is similar to the D3 system, except that there's no supplementary skills out-competing main attacks for these slots. The focus is purely on the attack skills themselves.

Also similar to D3, skill strength isn't dependent on skill investment, only on choosing to use the skill. This alleviates the skill-point-derived-damage issue. %Weapon damage is a good system, but falters in putting too much focus on only items - to alleviate this, keep %Weapon damage, but also assign each skill with a base damage number that increases with level. This is actually similar to D2, because if you were spending your skill points in the attacks that you used and synergized, your damage would most often go up with each skill point (and therefore, each level). The difference is that the damage is not dependent on skill points.

In the second part of the skill system are supplementary skills and effects. Instead of slots, here we use skill points. Since damage isn't dependent on our skill points, damage obligations are alleviated, and skill points can be used for customization. Spend your skill points among this pool of skills (which includes passive effects and some active skills (e.g. teleport), but not those that would be considered attacks) to give access to, and to improve the effects of, those skills and passives. This is the realm of incomparibles and class-specific effects. (Don't ruin this section with generic DPS/Survivability boosts like Archery or Jungle Fortitude. The goal is to avoid efficiency and customization being at odds with eachother.)

With damage freed from skill points, we have open customization.

With primary attacks separated from secondary skills, we facilitate unpenalized gameplay depth via possessing a variety of offensive skills.

With this achieved, all we'd need is diversity among the game's enemies and environments to really allow skill-combat depth to come to the forefront. Yes, this is the place where customization and efficiency must work alongside oneanother - different game situations.
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10/16/2013 08:11 PMPosted by Silocibe
PS Please give us a Bnet with a functional social system, you know, like the one you had for over a decade. How anyone at Blizzard thought this was an improvement baffles me.


Diablo 2 was a PC game.
Diablo 3 is a console game.

The social system we had in D2 wouldnt work on a console, but 3 huge buttons taking most of the screen fit perfectly for a console game.

Diablo 3's main problem is that it was primarly designed for console kids who will play it twice and then switch to GTA 5, not for 12 million people who expected a PC game.

That's why D3 has the lasting appeal of morning diarrhea.
Edited by Cthulhu#1172 on 10/17/2013 12:11 AM PDT
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10/16/2013 09:24 PMPosted by Dave
Once I made the jump to nightmare, I had the chance of finding endgame viable gear - Occy, Vampire Gaze, Shaftstop, Skullders, etc etc.


This is something I find particularly interesting. Diablo 2 had a more versatile item progression layout, allowing you to use relatively cheap/low level items with powerful builds. In part, I think this happened because of 2 reasons:

1. Loot was way less randomized, allowing the player to actually find a decent amount of his gear. Runewords, for obvious reasons, were a bit more difficult to find on your own, but after the droprate was improved, it was a bit better. Obviously, certain items were really difficult to fine (Windforce, for example), but that was fine, because once you saw a unique hydra bow, you already knew it was a fantastic find, instead of thinking meh... another brimstone like it happens so often in D3 when you see a beam of light, thanks to the awfully frustrating amount of RNG layering within the current itemization.

2. Loot tables were more predictable, allowing players to look for specific runs in order to get certain specific items. This can vary depending on perception, though. I personally have no problem farming the whole game instead of specific monsters. In fact, I think it's really cool, because it gives more variety to runs. However, a few predictable loot tables wouldn't be bad at all. Imho, this would be a great way to give Unique monsters a more interesting role within the game. They don't always spawn, but when they do, the player would be legitimately excited about a chance to obtain a great item, restoring a bit that anticipation feeling coming from farming specific monsters.

3. Loot ranges weren't nearly as disparate as they are in D3. This became less apparent after patch 1.10 introduced vastly superior runewords, but even then, you could still be somewhat competitive if your sorc was using an occy orb, next to a guy using a HotO flail, for instance. Basically, the best loot was better, but not so vastly superior as to completely trivialize more common, and cheap choices.

However, sometimes RNG would act up and give you dryspells for some time even in D2. It's just a product of the inherent nature of randomization. It could get frustrating at times, when run after run you'd see nothing but low level sets. Isenhart's stuff was particularly insulting for me when it dropped from hell Mephisto, but I suppose that spiky drop pattern is precisely what made great drops feel so good. The difference between D2 and D3 is the frequency with which those spikes happen. If we were to see that in a graph, D2's frequency would be similar to a healthy heard in an electrocardiogram, while D3's graph would look like a dead person, because in many cases, those spikes haven't even arrived thanks to excessive randomization.

10/16/2013 09:24 PMPosted by Dave
Second there's nothing special about any build

I don't necessarily agree here, however. Some builds can be somewhat interesting. The problem is that currently D3 focuses way too much on damage output thanks to the gearcheck levels. However, If you don't mind tuning down that MP dial, you may be surprised about how many things you can work with. Granted, there are skills that are outright silly and useless, but you can find a lot more diversity if you try stuff under MP5 without godly gear.

For instance, my current DH build is a kiting one. It has some nice synergy structured around crowd control (slow), and I've been testing it on MP5 since yesterday with really subpar gear. It's been pretty nice so far. You can find several interesting combos if you experiment a bit. It just sucks they don't hold together where it would matter due to relatively low damage output.
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D3 is in many ways superior to D2.

Better Skill system
Better trade system
Better party forming
More freedom
Better drop system
Better graphics
Better gameplay

The Community ruined D3, simple as that. Also to note is the focus on CD and CC - but that's the same silly system like at D2 when only + skill mattered on items.
Edited by Espinosa#1573 on 10/17/2013 5:59 AM PDT
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D3 is in many ways superior to D2.

Better Skill system
Better trade system
Better party forming
More freedom
Better drop system
Better graphics
Better gameplay


I guess today is opposite day.
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10/17/2013 12:09 AMPosted by Cthulhu
PS Please give us a Bnet with a functional social system, you know, like the one you had for over a decade. How anyone at Blizzard thought this was an improvement baffles me.


Diablo 2 was a PC game.
Diablo 3 is a console game.

The social system we had in D2 wouldnt work on a console, but 3 huge buttons taking most of the screen fit perfectly for a console game.

Diablo 3's main problem is that it was primarly designed for console kids who will play it twice and then switch to GTA 5, not for 12 million people who expected a PC game.

That's why D3 has the lasting appeal of morning diarrhea.


Of course, I have blocked that fact out. Oh well, I give up, uninstalled. Back to PoE and D2 I suppose. You insulting morning diarrhea?
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D3 is in many ways superior to D2.

Better Skill system
Better trade system
Better party forming
More freedom
Better drop system
Better graphics
Better gameplay


This is an opinion. My opinion is in almost direct opposition to yours. Please give a few reasons why you feel this way.

Better skill system: I disagree. D3 has fewer primary skills than D2, In my opinion far fewer viable uses (builds) for those skills, and no way to make any skill stronger through the use of skill points (to allow specialization), only through gear can you raise the dps of a skill to any significant degree higher than what's shown in the tooltip.

Better trade system: I don't know, I never trade.

Better party forming: I don't know, I play solo.

More freedom: How so? freedom to..... ?

Better drop system: I vehemently disagree here. The complete randomization of gear makes almost all gear useless, including legendaries. Which of course, takes us straight back to the bad skill system.

Better graphics: I agree on that score.

Better gameplay: I agree that the combat is much more fluid than D2, but in terms of keeping me interested, it's not enough to outweigh all the bad design built into this game.
Edited by Vendikar#1960 on 10/17/2013 6:44 AM PDT
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The whole "fixing something under her cart" story seems kinda weak. What under the cart would she be fixing? There's wheels and axles. Its gotta be one of the two and I think field replacement of those would be a major job that a lone woman wouldn't take on herself.
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I'm doing the same.
I miss hit recovery.
I miss hit chance.
I miss jewels, runes.
I miss THEIR version of crafted gear.
I miss combining gems being free.
I miss skulls, diamonds and amethysts.
I miss being able to spam teleport.
I miss being able to do a 10 minute MF run.
I miss MF gear being worthwhile.
I miss good story. I miss uniques you could find and use at level 10.
I miss uniques that were good end-game.
I miss the real version of Cow Level.
I miss stat points.
I miss skill trees.
I miss not having a res timer.
I miss white items being able to be vendored.
I miss Tyrael being a badass.
I miss Tyrael's voice.
I miss Diablo looking like a dude.
I miss Paladin.
I miss Necromancer.
I wish I never heard of Witch Doctor.
I miss fire wall.
I miss level 99.
I miss dueling outside of town.
I miss trading games.
I miss item currency.
I miss repair bills vs. res timers.
I miss single player.
I miss the gothic feel if Diablo 1-2.
I miss Stormsheild being a triangular monarch shield. Not a little blue, glowing disc.
I miss Eaglehorn.
I miss crushing blow.
I miss blind.
I miss fear.
I miss curses.
I miss paladin auras.
I miss prevents monster heal.
I miss mobs not regenning to full health in three seconds.
I miss Diablo 2's version of rare groups.
I miss class specific weapons.
I miss the idea that casting with a bow shouldn't increase my fireball's damage.
I miss my merc being able to stand up to !@#$.
I miss getting all the MF from my merc, not 20%.
I miss life leech being worth while.
I miss not having to forage for life on hit gear.
I miss being able to continue a boss fight after I died.
I miss Blizzard North.


add those and it ll be an awesome game.


AMEN TO THIS
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Why not bring the most popular gameplay back from D2? It was classic for a REASON.
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