Diablo® III

Why do we use meteors? Seriously.

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After 3stars showed me his Arcane mines build I have to wonder.

Meteors cost 50.
AM cost 16.

Metoer Procs .06 - edit * according to tekk if every dot ticks metoer is 0.6890-0.954 effective procs I only counted initial bang. So metoer gets close if it proc all it's all - still 3-4x worse per ap spent. still doesnt pay for it self even with 30 apoc on sinlgle.

Metoer does less DPS generally in anything semi spamable 260% like liquefy. AM hits for 340%

Only weakness is 2 seconds vs 1 before detonation. Thats where blizzard comes in slows em to take AMs. No biggie seriously.

With AM you can run secondary DPS buffs and better secondaries like blur like GC like MW and SF. Because you dont need Critical mass or freeze.

I used meteor a long time. Me and nitro still get blamed for nerf for all those videos we made back in 04 - but i come to conclusion they are weak sauce compared to AM. being able to play and face tank without freeze at all should tell you that. Life returned is just a % of dam done. You're doing way more damage if you dont need freeze at all unlike meteor. Feels like bats doc seeing those 1-2m crits tick by. It's not quite bats doc DPS but close.

You can also "juice" AM with dynamo for way more deeps but I'm not there yet.
Edited by Aimless#1700 on 10/21/2013 8:09 PM PDT
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I actually am a meteor wiz, but I was bored one day and tried arcane mines. Is it just me, or when I tried to spam AM, none of them actually detonated because after it hits the limit at around 6 or 7, it seems the oldest mine just disappeared, so I was basically doing no damage unless I paused every few seconds. That gets on my nerves.

I think the allure of meteor is:

A) it sets you apart from 90% of wizards in high MP I see running either SNS or archon.

B) it's flashy and impressive to see someone able to spam almost 3 molten impacts per second, only pausing to refresh freeze & diamond skin (which is annoying that it interrupts meteor's cast animations)

I saw the MP10 video of the arcane mines build, and I'll admit it was pretty cool and unique. I just don't like having to stop casting to give the mines time to detonate.
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Aim: Told ya you'd like Mines. ;)

Now it's worth noting that your math is way off on procs. The proc coefficient is 0.50 for each mine. The speed coefficient is 1.5 for Arcane Mines. So the effective procs is 1.5*0.5 = 0.75. In contrast, Molten Impact has 4 ticks (1 for impact, and 3 for the 3s DoT --- once per second), each at 0.125 proc coefficient. That means the effective proc coefficient is 4*0.125 = 0.5. Liquefy, the champ on procs for Meteor typically varies between 0.6890-0.954 effective procs. So Arcane Mines is good, but it's not super OMG better than Meteor. And Meteor's return on procs is smoother, since the procs aren't lumped together in one burst, which means you can often waste procs. Now mines are definitely better for a no-freeze build, because Meteor by its definition requires enemies to stand on the Meteor DoT.

Next off on damage, it's 340% weapon damage per mine. Because of the speed coefficient being 1.5 you're seeing 50% more damage, since you actually casting them faster than most spells (base frame length is 40frames whereas most spells are 60). So Mines effectively do 510% Weapon Damage compared to standard spells with a speed coefficient of 1. In contrast, Molten Impact is 390%+90%=480% Weapon damage, while Liquefy does either 320% or 420% Weapon damage. So yep there's a slight edge for Mines, but also keep in mind that the AOE is great for Meteor.

Personally I like Meteor better than Mines, since it doesn't play as nice with CM. The spikey nature of procs on mines and the limitation of being only able to drop 6 mines is a turn off. That said, there is no denying Mines can be good in CM-style builds (I've often paired them with Liquefy to improve singe target). And they are a great choice for non-CM builds too. I had quite a few positive conversations in game with Loroese on Arcane Mines. :)
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 10/19/2013 9:48 PM PDT
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What do you need CM for? There is no cooldown on mines. You woulnt need CM for metoer either if you didnt have to freeze and use diamond skin just to survive. 6 limit is no biggie if you stay under 1.89 ias. first blows as you cast seventh. all detonate. I'm gonna run a DPS comparo video with I get home on belial. Liquefy you'll see as a joke when im done with same DPS.
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Oh wait i wont even be able to spam belial with meteor because it costs 50 frekken AP and doesnt even pay for itself unlike mines 16.:( I'll try anyway with max reduction and 30 apox
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10/19/2013 09:54 PMPosted by Aimless
What do you need CM for? There is no cooldown on mines. You woulnt need CM for metoer either if you didnt have to freeze and use diamond skin just to survive. 6 limit is no biggie if you stay under 1.89 ias. first blows as you cast seventh. all detonate. I'm gonna run a DPS comparo video with I get home on belial. Liquefy you'll see as a joke when im done with same DPS.
Lol, and there's no cooldown on Meteor.

Arcane Mines are good and people have already reported some of the highest DPS multipliers with Arcane Torrent (especially with AD), but it's like comparing apples to oranges. CM builds are versatile not just because of the defense they provide, but also mobility through teleport and the offensive capability through Shards+Explosive Blast+Shocking Aspect. You can kind of do things with Illusionist, but it pales to what you can do with CM. There's a reason we like the bloody passive. ;) So different strokes for different people man.
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10/19/2013 10:21 PMPosted by Aimless
Oh wait i wont even be able to spam belial with meteor because it costs 50 frekken AP and doesnt even pay for itself unlike mines 16.:( I'll try anyway with max reduction and 30 apox
If you're trying to do a test that has practical meaning for people farming, a Kulle test is superior because you have 3 targets (ie a standard elite pack). You stop the test when you kill one of the minions.
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Farming they are probably equal. High health elites or bosses meteor will get raped and you know it which is why you stop test when no longer 3 to proc.
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10/19/2013 10:36 PMPosted by Aimless
Farming they are probably equal. High health elites or bosses meteor will get raped and you know it which is why you stop test when no longer 3 to proc.
And your point being? Of course we know that! That's the entire point of doing say a 3-target test. :p One should not consider single-target the de facto standard I think. Most of the time we're not fighting single targets (like <10% of the time), so a single-target test tell us very little much about a build's true performance.
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 10/19/2013 10:57 PM PDT
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10/19/2013 09:54 PMPosted by Aimless
What do you need CM for? There is no cooldown on mines. You woulnt need CM for metoer either if you didnt have to freeze and use diamond skin just to survive. 6 limit is no biggie if you stay under 1.89 ias. first blows as you cast seventh. all detonate. I'm gonna run a DPS comparo video with I get home on belial. Liquefy you'll see as a joke when im done with same DPS.


I wanna see a video!
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10/19/2013 10:36 PMPosted by Aimless
Farming they are probably equal. High health elites or bosses meteor will get raped and you know it which is why you stop test when no longer 3 to proc.


Does it really matter when you have 90.4% reduction + 400k dps + lifesteal weapon? I mean any build you choose should be overpowered. Heck you could build a viable wave of force build that could do mp7+ on those stats.

Aimless Most of us choose meteor for 3 specific reasons.

1. Looks = Aesthetics Whats the point of having badass gear and not looking cool when you blow demons apart?

2. Did I mention how badass you look when you meet a pack of +50 enemies and destroy them all in about 5 casts with your preferred rune?

3. It's already been nerfed once, only about 10% of the population uses it, is it nerf proof? probably not, but other skills will be changed before meteor is. Hence it could be viewed as a buffer from gear induced nerfs.

4. You have seen a godly meteor shower wizard in action right? Man is that stuff fun, by the time the barb/monk is able to draw aggro to you the pack is already dead from your meteor casts. Oh did I mention how awesome you look when you blow up demons with meteor?
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Im pretty sure I was metoer b4 you guys. Like this video was sept last year.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjJa3y2XX98

Meteor is small potatoes compare to AM.
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master the blizzard - mines build and mobs won't even get to hit you at all.

also you get to kick siegebreaker/kulle's :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn5HU2_eo4s
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Im pretty sure I was meaty-wh0re b4 you guys. Like this video was sept last year.


I've been meteors only since the 3rd day after launch. and corrected your spelling mistake

10/19/2013 11:57 PMPosted by Aimless
Meteor is small potatoes compare to AM.

master the blizzard - mines build and mobs won't even get to hit you at all.

Glad you guys think its overpowered. Seriously look at your gear. Everything is overpowered.
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what part of my gear is overpowered lol, perhaps Aimless's but not mine -

srsly almost half of my gears are crafted XD
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This sounds interesting. Also Add WoF: Arcane Attunement to the mix in RoS.
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Love it already. I just did my version of this build, and I don't even have APoC.

http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#WelXSf!XgW!abbccY

It has cm, freeze, diamond shards and low ap blizzard.

If I were to get an APoC item, I could even use Arcane Dynamo or whatever else instead of Astral Presence.
Edited by dominatus#2534 on 10/20/2013 3:15 AM PDT
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Aimless:
Im pretty sure I was metoer b4 you guys. Like this video was sept last year.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjJa3y2XX98.
And what the hell do you think that proves? :p That's like the worst agument you've ever made, and that's saying something. I like ya man, but that's a fallacy of false authority if I ever saw one. The argument of first doesn't qualify you as an expert. There are a lot of people that have come after you that I consider to possess a very informative of Meteor, and that I pay frankly closer attention to. Yes, I'm aware of your contributions to the Meteor community over the last year, and yes I'm aware what other people have done too. ;) I don't like naming names, since this isn't a competition, but the proof is in the pudding of what you say, not whenever you said it. :lol

For example, just look at the mistakes you've made in the comparison of Arcane Mines to Meteor. And somehow you think that Meteor being bad on bosses makes it weak. That's like saying Archon builds are weak compared to SNS!!! I think you'd get most people just saying that Archon+SNS are different, albeit both very competitive. :p I understand you're very eager to prove Arcane Mines, but you're barking up the wrong tree. We already know Arcane Mines are good!!! Who was one of the wizards that suggested you should try it just the other night, and you agreed that you were interested? :p And you're just learning how much you actually like Mines. And bravo!!! I'm delighted you love the spell.

Wizards just happen to have some solid spells in Disruption/Arcane Mines, Liquefy/Molten Impact/Meteor Shower, and Sleet Storm (among others). These spells aren't the cookie-cutter spells that the SNS and Archon wizards used, but there's no denying the effectiveness of Arcane Torrent, Meteor, and Sleet Storm. Let's celebrate in the fact that we have useful spells!!! Back in February, you tried to say the revised Shaggy build was better than SNS. Guess what... SNS is still heavily used. Meteors are here to stay, just as much as Sleet Storm, SNS and Archon are (at least until Loot 2.0 and xpac). If anything, I'd love to see more people use Arcane Mines, since it's an underused and frankly misunderstood skill (just like Liquefy)

BUT my view is that Meteor and Arcane Mines both have a lot of potential. For example, let's breakdown the merits of Meteor and Arcane Torrent:
Pros of Meteor:
1.) Larger AOE, especially with Meteor Shower
2.) More Procs with Liquefy
3.) Smoother damage, APoC returns, LoH procs, and CM proc via the Meteor DoT
4.) A 1s less casting delay than Mines (1s for Meteor vs. 2s for Mines)
5.) Looks awesome

Pros of Arcane Mines:
1.) More splash damage (not necessarily more effective DPS)
2.) Less Expensive than Meteor for AP
2.) High proc rate, though typically lower than Liquefy
3.) Looks awesome

So what do we see? Well Meteor is a good choice for a farmer! You get the larger AOE and a smoother experience, since a lot of the effective DPS+Procs of a Meteor spammer is the Meteor DoT. If you want a sustainable source of splash damage, albeit more spikey, that works great for farming and bosses, then Arcane Mines is an awesome choice. Different strokes for different wizards. :)
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 10/20/2013 7:43 AM PDT
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meteors much better. if i were to go speed farming i would go SNS. meteors for the fun, for the looks of big rocks dropping and the feeling of the impact along with 2mil crits. arcane mines are as good as dh spike traps - thats how all dhs played before they got the rf buff. no fun at all
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10/19/2013 09:06 PMPosted by Aimless
After 3stars showed me his Arcane mines build I have to wonder.


Uh oh, what did I start?!? All I want out of this are some of Aimless' patented clever names for my main wizard builds. "Low Maintenance Arcane Mines Build" doesn't exactly roll off of the tongue. :D

I tend to look at skills more for their utility than their proc chance, and my inclination is always towards standing and channeling. Thus, mines (and by extension its parent skill) is my preferred skill over meteor. I did briefly try a Comet/Time Warp/Frost Nova CM build and it was quite good, but since I only had 10-20 APOC I could never sustain the drop of meteors. I'll probably find my way to getting an APOC 1-hander eventually so this isn't dead for me, but once I switched to Arcane Mines (after reading Loroese's thread) I found them easy to use even with the 2 second delay as long as I could keep myself safe.

Plus, if CM gets beaten with the nerf stick, mines will still work as intended. It's why all my builds don't use CM. I don't want to get so dependent on something that more than likely will be taken away.
Edited by ThreeStars#1571 on 10/20/2013 8:10 AM PDT
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