Diablo® III

Why do we use meteors? Seriously.

After 3stars showed me his Arcane mines build I have to wonder.


Uh oh, what did I start?!? All I want out of this are some of Aimless' patented clever names for my main wizard builds. "Low Maintenance Arcane Mines Build" doesn't exactly roll off of the tongue. :D

I tend to look at skills more for their utility than their proc chance, and my inclination is always towards standing and channeling. Thus, mines (and by extension its parent skill) is my preferred skill over meteor. I did briefly try a Comet/Time Warp/Frost Nova CM build and it was quite good, but since I only had 10-20 APOC I could never sustain the drop of meteors. I'll probably find my way to getting an APOC 1-hander eventually so this isn't dead for me, but once I switched to Arcane Mines (after reading Loroese's thread) I found them easy to use even with the 2 second delay as long as I could keep myself safe.
Lol, Arcane Mines are effective and can be fun! I don't think you'll find most people disputing that! ^_^ Rather I think it's not very informative, or frankly constructive, for Aimless to praise the merits of Arcane Mines at Meteor's expense. I like the guy, but it's often a binary approach with Aim.

Both Arcane Mines and Meteor are competitive!. Though tbh I've been surprised how few people actually like Arcane Torrent (~1% of players). Though this weekend, it appears that only 8% of players have Meteor in their profile (and 2% for Ray of Frost). There's no accounting for taste! :p

Plus, if CM gets beaten with the nerf stick, mines will still work as intended. It's why all my builds don't use CM. I don't want to get so dependent on something that more than likely will be taken away.
Well, I think it's gonna be interesting, but it's difficult to predict. The AP cost of Meteors is going down too, but I think at this juncture there are too many unknowns to predict what will make for an effective wizard build after Loot 2.0+xpac. Likely we'll be using different gear. Homing meteors anyone? :)
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 10/20/2013 8:31 AM PDT
Reply Quote
I didnt make any mistakes tekk. I ommited dot proc and only stated impact proc. DOT is irrelevant in many situations if monster is dead like whites AM doesnt have this problem since procs are front end loaded. Not only that meteor is not paying for itself because it costs more than 3x more than mines. So even with rosey max procs max dot plus impact from meteors of 0.6890-0.954 it's less than half as good as AM per AP spent.

AM 16 = .5
Meets 50 = 0.6890-0.954

Just look at poster who plays with no APOC whatsoever. GL trying that with meteors.

meteors much better.


No they are much worse.

All I want out of this are some of Aimless' patented clever names for my main wizard builds.
Still fine tuning my variant... TBC.

Homing meteors anyone? :)

It'll take 20 AP cost before I use it again or double damage.:)
Edited by Aimless#1700 on 10/20/2013 9:20 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Aimless:
I ommited dot proc and only stated impact proc.
Dude you said "Metoer Procs .06; AM proc almost 10x @0.5 ". ;)

It's not 10x even considering just impact. The proc coefficient for impact on Meteor is only 0.05 for Meteor Shower, and it's 0.125 for Molten Impact/Comet, and 0.106 for Liquefy/Star Pact. And since the first tick of the DoT coincides with the impact, you can usually just treat the impact as 2x the proc coefficient. So it's either 5x or 2.5x depending on how you want to look at it. 10x is not correct by any stretch of the means, except for one rune. But then that's apples and oranges to compare Mines to Meteor Shower, since you get potentially 7 hits. :p

What I'm trying to say Aim is that while I enjoy reading your posts, you're not an expert on all things Meteor or Arcane Mines, especially on how the mechanics under the hood. I've come to expect certain insight from certain posters. :) For example, I consider you a excellent source of insight on damage mitigation. You're someone that tends to go with his gut, rather than someone that carefully scrutinizes the math of wizard mechanics. And it's all good, but you're not going to convince me by numbers, since I've studied them in great-depth! So you have to have you're numbers 100% right, and treated in a fair manner, to appeal to a numbers guy like me.

Aimless:
DOT is irrelevant in many situations if monster is dead like whites AM doesnt have this problem since procs are front end loaded
Irrelevant, since if its white monsters, it's almost 100% of the time involving a mob, so the increased AOE on Meteor means you're getting a lot of procs back anyways. Most people don't have trouble spamming Meteor with 20APoC in mobs. Frankly for that matter most skills have no problems with resource regeneration on trash mobs. ;)

Aimless:
Not only that meteor is not paying for itself because it costs more than 3x more than mines. So even with rosey max procs max dot plus impact from meteors of 0.6890-0.954 it's less than half as good as AM per AP spent.
So? Meteors are more expensive. We all know that! That's why most Meteor wizzies try to run 30APoC.

But Meteor has other advantages that makes it fun for people to use. If I'm melting trash mobs, I'd rather have the extra AOE from Meteor and blast people with Meteors+Chain Reaction+Diamond Shards (which all have pretty large AOEs). And the less spikey nature of the procs, and ability to exceed 2aps, means Meteor synergizes better with CM (our best passive). So different skills for different purposes. Arcane Mines is simply fantastic for the amount of damage generated per AP cost. That doesn't make it instantly better than Meteor though.

So enjoy you're Arcane Mines, and I'll enjoy my Meteors! Fair?! :)

Aimless:
Just look at poster who plays with no APOC whatsoever. GL trying that with meteors.
Good luck doing that with Wicked Wind! ;)
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 10/20/2013 9:57 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Just to play Diablo's advocate...

I would argue that a skill that requires at least 3 separate gear pieces (30 APOC), a mandatory passive (CM), and probably at least 2 more mandatory skills (gotta keep mobs still and regain your AP through procs) to be effective is not all that well designed. That's why Blizz keeps dropping the cost and hiking the damage of meteor. It doesn't appear to be intended to be a spam spell, more of a big single shot boomer, but people have had to find ways to spam it to make it effective. Guess what happens when you hike the damage of meteor and make its cost low enough to be channeled/repeatedly cast? You get Arcane mines. :-) Arcane torrent in general is going to kill things regardless of CM, APOC, etc. What you lose in the exchange is AOE and the fire and forget nature of the meteor spell.

Tldr: Use whatever works for you, but I like to not be tied into multiple mandatory skill-specific requirements for the skills I use.
Reply Quote
It also requires a LS weapon like mines. GL getting APOC wand even close to same DPS and non apoc 1 hdr you can use with mines because apoc return is 4x better per ap spent.
Edited by Aimless#1700 on 10/20/2013 10:42 AM PDT
Reply Quote
ThreeStars:
I would argue that a skill that requires at least 3 separate gear pieces (30 APOC), a mandatory passive (CM), and probably at least 2 more mandatory skills (gotta keep mobs still and regain your AP through procs) to be effective is not all that well designed.
Wait, are you talking about Energy Twister? Hahaha, the major differences between Wicked Wind and Meteor builds is: a.) the desirability of a third source of APOC with Meteor builds, and b.) that Wicked Wind is more dependent on attack speed. Moreover, CM is basically a mandatory passive for most wizard builds, since it allows access to some of our most powerful spells with no cooldowns (ie Frost Nova, Teleport, Diamond Skin, Explosive Blast, Archon, etc)!!! What's not to like?

So I find it hard to be compelled by such reasoning. I'd love to see the AP cost of Meteor reduced, and the AP situation is the skill's Achilles heel. But that said when you can farm almost as fast with Meteor builds as SNS, Meteor is clearly quite competitive. Now clearly Aim and you like Mines, so go ahead and enjoy them. Different strokes for different people.
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 10/20/2013 11:07 AM PDT
Reply Quote
"Different strokes for different folks":

Tekk, you argue and and communicate politely and beautifully. That being said, your quote, I think, is a bit of a red herring, to use the term loosely.

This conversation is about efficiency, not fun. And for any given situation, there will be a gear and build combination that works faster than others. So while I agree that it is silly to tell people not to use a build if it is not as efficient as another (for a particular situation), i think its valuable to compare numbers and talk and efficiency/ effectiveness.
Reply Quote
"Different strokes for different folks":

Tekk, you argue and and communicate politely and beautifully. That being said, your quote, I think, is a bit of a red herring, to use the term loosely.


This reads like something I would write.
Reply Quote
Tekk, I'm not trying to persuade you of anything. You can meteor to your heart's content. :-)

All I'm saying is that the problem is on Blizzard's end. They've given us a skill that requires far too many external factors to avoid being impractical. The fact that it's powerful with those factors in place is really besides the point.

They really never should have let the CM genie out of the bottle. They set up a world of skills based on cool down rules, and then they said "ignore all of the cool down rules". I guarantee that all those powerful skills are/were not designed or tuned for spamming, and now they've had to frantically scramble with adjustments to deal with the consequences of CM. It's good for the players that we have people to figure out these loopholes, but from a game design standpoint it's kind of horrifying, and I don't mean the WD skill. ;-)
Reply Quote
"Different strokes for different folks":

Tekk, you argue and and communicate politely and beautifully. That being said, your quote, I think, is a bit of a red herring, to use the term loosely.

This conversation is about efficiency, not fun. And for any given situation, there will be a gear and build combination that works faster than others. So while I agree that it is silly to tell people not to use a build if it is not as efficient as another (for a particular situation), i think its valuable to compare numbers and talk and efficiency/ effectiveness.
Right, but that's the issue here. We already know the Meteor skill can be quite competitive for farming from the multitude of tests that have been done by Void, me, and many others.

My view is that a positive claim is being by Aimless, in which it's in his court to prove that Meteor is so much worse than Arcane Mines. I don't think he can, no more than he was to show that Shaggalicious was better than SNS (see here: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7811342684 ). I wouldn't accept a Ghom test, or any single-target test for that matter, as proof of an efficient build, no more than such as a test would prove that Archon is a bad farmer build. So my answer to Aim is that we use Meteor cuz it's effective and fun. If Aim or anyone else wants to show how awesome Arcane Mines are, they are welcome to have at it. I know Arcane Mines are pretty fun and effective (and I was one of the players encouraging Aim to try it), and I'd love to see a fair comparison.

BUT... I doubt we'll find Arcane Mines are leaps and bounds better, if at all. The reality is that there a lot of competitive wizard builds, and both Meteor and Arcane Mines are included in that list. I'm pretty sure part of the issue is that fundamentally Meteor builds, and probably Arcane Mines too, are specialized for different things. Aim wants to go no-freeze and minimize APoC, so it's natural that he's gravitating towards Arcane Mines. And I think he should if that's what he sees as fun. And that's where I say different strokes for different people. Yes, there can be best in certain circumstances, but I've yet to see a "best" build in 100% of circumstances and gearsets. Thus, a huge part of the discussion, depends on gearing, skill choices, player skill, where the player farms, and who the players farms with.
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 10/20/2013 1:24 PM PDT
Reply Quote
All I'm saying is that the problem is on Blizzard's end. They've given us a skill that requires far too many external factors to avoid being impractical. The fact that it's powerful with those factors in place is really besides the point.

They really never should have let the CM genie out of the bottle. They set up a world of skills based on cool down rules, and then they said "ignore all of the cool down rules". I guarantee that all those powerful skills are/were not designed or tuned for spamming, and now they've had to frantically scramble with adjustments to deal with the consequences of CM. It's good for the players that we have people to figure out these loopholes, but from a game design standpoint it's kind of horrifying, and I don't mean the WD skill. ;-)
Sure, we can talk about CM and what Blizzard might want to be, but ultimately what matters is the "now." And in the present "now," CM is extremely potent, which is why SNS is so popular. Meteor is another skill that works pretty well with CM. So it's not really a mystery why some players like Meteor, and have found ways to make it effective! :lol

In the future, Arcane Mines might eventually become super popular and Meteor becomes junk, depending on how Blizzard tweaks the system. And that's fine! But I don't think we should be framing a discussion really around what Blizzard will do, since it's unclear what Blizzard will do whatever we speculate. If they had wanted to fix the "CM genie out of the bottle," they've had ample opportunity. So anything is possible in terms of what they'll do. And most of our gear is likely to become useless very quickily anyways after the xpac, so I don't see the point in trying to gear something "safe." I think what's important is discussing how Meteor and Arcane Mines presently make for an efficient, farming experience. Arcane Mines hasn't received much attention, so I'd be delighted to see the skill receive its due attention, BUT... that doesn't diminish Meteor or Sleet Storm. In fact, I just see Arcane Mines as yet another dark horse build that's much better than most people give it credit for. And I appreciate this, since I've advocated Liquefy for so long, despite most Meteor wizzies preferring Meteor Shower or Molten Impact.
Reply Quote
I was going to reply to you here Tekk, but I dont want to hijack the thread. Ill just make another one :)
Reply Quote
10/20/2013 12:26 PMPosted by Eciton
So while I agree that it is silly to tell people not to use a build if it is not as efficient as another (for a particular situation), i think its valuable to compare numbers and talk and efficiency/ effectiveness.

... he said to the only one using real numbers in his argument.

But I'm quite surprised how nobody has brought up that thing about Mines snapshoting AD. Okay, it does add some micromanagement. And with your kind of gear it's probably like "meh, few hundred k dps more or less..." But still.
Reply Quote
10/20/2013 01:40 PMPosted by apo
But I'm quite surprised how nobody has brought up that thing about Mines snapshoting AD. Okay, it does add some micromanagement. And with your kind of gear it's probably like "meh, few hundred k dps more or less..." But still.
Lol, I love snap shotting AD for Mines, and actually mentioned it very briefly earlier in the thread!!! Loroese is the one that got me on that. That's why I never really bothered to mess with studying how high my max aps could be, since I was most often combining Frost Nova and Living Lightning with Mines (same as I often did with Sleet Storm). And it worked pretty well, especially if there was a freezing wizard present!! :)
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 10/20/2013 2:02 PM PDT
Reply Quote
I also tried AD snapshotting initially when running mines, but I kept blowing my 5-stack on the blizzard rather than the mines. Now that I have a 10 second blizzard time I may try it again.
Reply Quote
Posted by Eciton
So while I agree that it is silly to tell people not to use a build if it is not as efficient as another (for a particular situation), i think its valuable to compare numbers and talk and efficiency/ effectiveness.

... he said to the only one using real numbers in his argument.


Which is precisely why I was so surprised to see it! It struck me as odd that after all the numbers, he still said what i thought to mean "what ever you think is fun" > else. I understand now that was not what he was saying :)
Reply Quote
10/20/2013 02:06 PMPosted by ThreeStars
I also tried AD snapshotting initially when running mines, but I kept blowing my 5-stack on the blizzard rather than the mines. Now that I have a 10 second blizzard time I may try it again.


That's why I dropped blizzard for EB - short fuse. All I really needed blizzard for was to survive the windup and proc CB. I use a follower for CB, and short fuse is great for surviving the windup. Plus you can use it while channeling AM without dropping the AD empowerment. I noticed you use ice armor, which should also be mostly sufficient for procing CB, but part of that depends on solo vs group play, and I mostly play solo. Of course, that requires CM, but then you can also add teleport for extra utility, so it's just a different variant and my own personal preference.

As far as mines vs meteor, I personally prefer mines because it's much easier for me to gear for, but I can understand that some prefer meteor either because it's a cool spell, or because it has the potential for better aoe farming. I won't go so far as to say one is better than the other, but each has its advantages depending on what you want to accomplish. I do claim that AM > meteor for Ubers, as long as you have someone keeping the bosses in place, since you can continuously channel AM with AD for upwards of 12x multiplier, and easily add a SoJ for even more eDPS.

So in my opinion, AM is better suited for fewer mobs, like elite or boss farming while meteor is better suited for aoeing down large groups of mobs. That said, both skills work decently well for either scenario.
Reply Quote
Why do we use meteors? Seriously


Numbers aside, Meteor looks cool. Mines dont. They could double the dps on mines and I still wouldnt use it.
Reply Quote
10/20/2013 06:03 PMPosted by Ryoka
Why do we use meteors? Seriously


Numbers aside, Meteor looks cool. Mines dont. They could double the dps on mines and I still wouldnt use it.


word!! i use meats coz its cool to rain rocks. let the dhs do the mining and plumbing
Reply Quote
10/20/2013 04:59 PMPosted by Loroese
I also tried AD snapshotting initially when running mines, but I kept blowing my 5-stack on the blizzard rather than the mines. Now that I have a 10 second blizzard time I may try it again.


That's why I dropped blizzard for EB - short fuse. All I really needed blizzard for was to survive the windup and proc CB. I use a follower for CB, and short fuse is great for surviving the windup. Plus you can use it while channeling AM without dropping the AD empowerment. I noticed you use ice armor, which should also be mostly sufficient for procing CB, but part of that depends on solo vs group play, and I mostly play solo. Of course, that requires CM, but then you can also add teleport for extra utility, so it's just a different variant and my own personal preference.


I do have a Buriza in my stash somewhere, but I've become rather fond of my enchantress and her Tormentor staff for charming, immobilizing and chickenifying fun. I need to give her the same gear that the enchantress on my main has. Item procs are a lot of fun with followers.

Ice armor is also for survivability from the Crystallize rune. I've tried Ice Reflect instead for the cold which would leave room for something else in my blizzard slot, but it wasn't as reliable as I would want. Crystallize is also the difference between 88 and 91% MIT, which is enormous. Blizzard is one of favorite spells for sheer usefulness, as it slows, damages, and sucks life from groups.

Strangely enough I've never used teleport much. I compensate by stacking ehp and trying not to get in situations where I'd need to teleport out.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]