Diablo® III

Will the Real Death Penalty Please Stand Up?

10/22/2013 11:53 AMPosted by DRON
Not sure why death penalty cant be just like in d2. You die you lose portion of exp that you gained. What is so bad about it?


Exactly. If you can't make it back to your corpse, you lose even more money. If you can't make it back, or don't want to try, your corpse (and gear) ends up in town. Then say you'll lose 10% of the experience you've gained that day, and the incentive for you to get back out there and gain that experience back is there.

The only problem will be the 0.004% chance the game glitches out and someone loses all their gear. All the spoiled little fans (that probably still play WoW) will cry and complain. Then somebody will make the point "you shouldn't have died in the first place," and the community will be just as divided about it as they are now on the AH issue.

Still, I'd be cool with it. If you make it back to your corpse, you don't lose anything. It would give people a reason to keep an "In Case Of Death" set of gear handy :D
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@magna

Adding a death penalty IS incentive for survival. The bonus for survival is progressing further than others who DO die by losing X.

This can be a loss of gold, mf, nv stacks, or experience. The optimal one for me is what allows players to progress faster than others BECAUSE they aren't dying, but at high risk. In other words, a person farming mp1 to be safe should be progressing significantly slower in X (the penalty), than someone who is able to play mp9 without any deaths. Those who choose to play mp9 who are not ready, will suffer consequences----> Loss of progression

That is incentive to stay alive.
Edited by Durabolin#1796 on 10/22/2013 12:37 PM PDT
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A penalty and a bonus/reward is the same thing, in different disguises.
Doesn't really matter which is picked.

A bonus might be an easier sell to some people though.
Edited by Shadout#2849 on 10/22/2013 12:47 PM PDT
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A penalty and a bonus/reward is the same thing, in different disguises.
Doesn't really matter which is picked.

One encourages players while the other turns players off. Guess which is which. Making negatives out to be positives is always a more successful strategy. Survival bonus will be 100x more liked than a death penalty.
A popular example from Blizz themselves is WoW's rested exp system. Originally it was a 50% penalty for playing more than a few hours at a time, and people hated it. But it was later changed to be a 200% bonus (same number different wording) and people really liked it.
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With this crowd rewards are penalties anyway... just thinking of the nv arguments. If there is anything I have learned over the years it is that players are the worst designers for the most part.
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A penalty and a bonus/reward is the same thing, in different disguises.
Doesn't really matter which is picked.

One encourages players while the other turns players off. Guess which is which. Making negatives out to be positives is always a more successful strategy. Survival bonus will be 100x more liked than a death penalty.

Sure, there is a psychological difference in how they are perceived (hence 'different disguises').
Simply meant that there is no gameplay difference.
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One encourages players while the other turns players off. Guess which is which. Making negatives out to be positives is always a more successful strategy. Survival bonus will be 100x more liked than a death penalty.
A popular example from Blizz themselves is WoW's rested exp system. Originally it was a 50% penalty for playing more than a few hours at a time, and people hated it. But it was later changed to be a 200% bonus (same number different wording) and people really liked it.


The problem is that, conceptually, death is supposed to be a very, very bad thing. That WoW example is a poor analogy because "playing for more than a few hours" is not a bad thing. In other words, it's not just a matter of encourage/discouragement, it's a matter of honest gameplay. Getting yourself KILLED is supposed to result in a negative experience. This abject fear of a player having a negative experience is one of the things that really gets in the way of Blizzard creating meaningful and interesting content in their games.
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+1
Death is already punished heavily through loss of time and efficiency.

Promoting 'good play' is something I can fully get behind. Just to throw out a few random thoughts:
- NV stacks can extend beyond 5 but 'reset' back to 5 upon death.
- Move speed is increased by 1% per elite / boss killed beyond NV5
- Pickup Radius increased by 1% per elite/ boss killed beyond NV5
- Guaranteed Treasure Goblin spawn every 3 elite packs killed (I particularly like this one because goblins can lead to death if approached poorly)
- Increased DE drop rate by 1% for every / boss killed beyond NV5

You get the idea. Any of the above ideas would be modified and capped accordingly for balance reasons. Pickup radius in particular could be broken when you consider it's power when combines with some classes.
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10/22/2013 10:12 AMPosted by KhalARon
Hardcore mode stands up and smirks at your insignificant and cowardly mewlings.


Yet HC mode says nothing about MP0 gaming to get easy levels nor buying HC gold with SC gold, both so lame. HC mode has its own issues that make HC a joke, better go deal with them and leave SC issues to SC players.
Edited by Nicator#1579 on 10/22/2013 2:37 PM PDT
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+1
Death is already punished heavily through loss of time and efficiency.


... losing 3-5k gold and some seconds after a death, leaves SC progression unhindered. A player can remain dead while others kill the elite and resurrect him soon after, ending with more gold from the loot and more experience (progression) even without landing a single hit. That's not punishment, that's reward.
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Posts: 517
10/22/2013 12:33 PMPosted by Durabolin
Adding a death penalty IS incentive for survival. The bonus for survival is progressing further than others who DO die by losing X.

The psychological aspect - the 'feel' of the game - is a legitimate thing.

You're right that the threat of losing, say, part of X bonus or getting whatever other penalty is an incentive, and as was mentioned, is a negative experience when it happens - as death should be.

The flip side is that with a survival bonus, you also get directly rewarded for surviving. Since much time is spent farming, and focusing on efficiency rather than purely survival itself, I daresay that such a reward has a place in D3 if you genuinely want to build a positive feeling around the time you spend surviving, rather than just the negative feeling of death. I'm sure both aspects together would provide the best incentive, and that's what my suggestion sets out to do.
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first and most importantly, I like the title of your thread... but yea I Agree could use a harsher death penalty outside of hardcore
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You're basically suggesting we all turn into bots and farm easy content, never die and raise droprates to those of heavy content after thousands of botted hours? funny, but no thanks !
Or perhaps you'd like to overglorify HC players because they (almost) never die? HC isn't self-found mode, you don't really need that drop buff just for chosing the game to challenge you !
Or perhaps you love staying at the inn, while your friends do the dirty work in the fields? Then come hours later and claim "I've rested, now i'll reap the drops 10 times faster than those losers"

NV is enough reward for staying long enough in a game.

Edit : As for death penalty, with RoS and high repair bills, you won't like it so much, even with a goldfinder alt.
If you have exp penalty : players will farm easy content up to a certain paragon level, then farm madly while not caring for exp when they have 0 exp in current level
If you have NV drop penalty : people will ALWAYS farm easy content over trying to see if they can solo harder content.
If you have higher repair bills: back to square 1, read what happened in 1st months when people couldn't put away some coins for AH. We'll have more gold sinks with mystic anyway.
Can't think of other effective death penalties atm, it's 6 am over here.
Edited by Tornado#2254 on 10/22/2013 8:04 PM PDT
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10/22/2013 07:59 PMPosted by Tornado
You're basically suggesting we all turn into bots and farm easy content, never die and raise droprates to those of heavy content after thousands of botted hours? funny, but no thanks !


Farm wherever you want. But if you die you lose experience. In any interesting game or sport, rules are made to promote and reward skill, not to overlook and make it irrelevant.
Edited by Nicator#1579 on 10/22/2013 9:11 PM PDT
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10/22/2013 11:21 AMPosted by Shadout
the only problem with this plan is what is stopping people form starting a game and letting them sit in a safe area for the set period of time until they get the buff. i think a penalty is a better idea

That would be easy to stop. Such as it builds up by you killing monsters (some combination of how much dmg is dealt and how many monsters killed, to make killing both white mobs and elites reasonably equal), doing loot runs etc.
Hey, we already have such a system, XP!

A buff building up simply by waiting X time would clearly be terrible.

In sacred 2, survival bonus did only build up if you were in combat. That was not a very bright solution, since people soon figured out you could find some very weak monsters, stand there over night letting your hp regen outdo their dmg.

By making it build on dmg/kills, you also create a more interesting dynamic between offensive and defensive. You would build your survival bonus slower the more defensive you went.

yeah I like that idea but my only question is would this build up decrease with down time. like if I play for a few hours and build up this reward but then I sit in town while i sleep, would i loose said reward or keep it. i agree with the former personally
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Every time you die, take a shot.
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10/22/2013 10:21 PMPosted by C4rnif3X
Every time you die, take a shot.

Maybe the game should come with an automatic injector which would inject a drug causing nausea whenever you'd die in the game?
Now that would be a real penalty getting people to stack on defense!
Some cowards would not even use the nausea injector.. But maybe there could be a sensor on it? Some kinda dna registration device, so you just couldn't cheat!?
Then some might try to leave the game altogether.. But blizzard could have a secret police that enforced the continued use of the nausea injector?
It's a bit complicated, but I think I'm onto something here.
One problem would be getting new "customers", but that could be part of the secret police's work, to induce people to "try" the new improved diablo 3.
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I believe the solution to the 'Death Penalty' discussion is not merely a punishment on death, but more of a 'Survival Incentive'.


Why is this a discussion at all. The death penalty of losing gold and time is enough for me to want to say alive, and I wouldn't be against losing experience either. But the suggestion of making some complicated system called survival mode or a system in which you lose life steal and or attribute points for a certain amount of time makes me want to bang my head against the screen. I think losing a NV stack would be simple and effective.
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Posts: 517
10/23/2013 12:23 AMPosted by Indyz
in which you lose life steal and or attribute points for a certain amount of time

I never said anything like that. Those would be terrible.

NV stacks? I and many others have made that suggestion before. It could work.

However, NV is quite a short-term system. It's also focused on preventing skill switching. Loading too many functions onto it means that, although each function will be filled, it won't be as effective as it would be with a standalone system that's entirely dedicated to that particular 'game principle' that can be designed and tweaked directly, independent of other systems.
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As I said in the other thread. I back this, cause it promotes good play.
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