Diablo® III

Will the Real Death Penalty Please Stand Up?

Where were you want Blizzard wants to reduce the death timer?

Funny right, people used to complained because the death timer was too long or expensive repair costs and this penalty was punishing the players too hard, and Blizzard fix it because of you guys, and now what? The very same guys now think that death has little meaning?

How about this, Make up your god damn mind.

As for those who wants death reduce the experience points, why don't you just suggest something like you need 30 seconds~1 minute to respawn and those timers are accumulative if you kept dying. If you look at different perspective, it is same as losing experience as you didn't earn any experience because you are waiting to respawn.

Also, it would be damn hypocrite if you think long death timer is tedious and boring, but fighting the monsters over again to regain the lost experience is completely fine and good mechanic.

Since we at this, let's remove the resurrection and check point too because this will make or rather, force the player to play well so they won't have to walk from the town to the location where they just got owned by monsters.

People who are suggesting losing NV is also didn't thought this through. So, what are those players going to do when they are fighting uber monsters? Thanks to their team mate for being dead, now they are going to restart the whole uber quest because their team don't have max NV.

For me, current death penalty is fine. If I want to have harsher penalty, I would play HC. Also, you guys can self-impose your own rule when you are dead; such as selling one of your equipment, force yourself to spend 2 million gold to buy the Archon Armor Plan from the merchant at Act 2 and etc. There are so many ways you can punish yourself if you feel want to be a masochist.

There is no reason to involves other players just because you think you think the death penalty is too light for your taste, Mr.elitist.
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You should lose a nephalem valor stack (or 2) every time you die. To discourage suiciding.

By itself it doesn't really constitute a gutpunch, but if you die 3 times to burn through one elite pack its going to give you a net loss in your farming efficiency.
Edited by Gierling#1594 on 11/1/2013 8:22 AM PDT
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we already have a big enough death penalty with repair costs. We seriously don't need anymore
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Today dying just doesn't hurt enough. Who cares about 10% durability when you can just spend 10 gold drops and negate its effect ?

Dying should make you think "aw, damn".

The classic XP penalty is a good one. It does turn death into a "damn" moment, while also not slowing you down into your game - you're still going to continue doing whatever you were going to do. It is painful, but it doesn't deprive you of anything from your game session that you still can enjoy to its fullest (which is a good thing).

The idea of losing NV stacks I am not a fan of. Losing all your stacks is just too horrible as the consequence is that it's just better to start a new game, which is stupid. Losing one stack *might* be acceptable, but even then I don't think it's a good idea for the aforementioned reasons. Starting a new game should NEVER be the logical conclusion to death.

Similarly, that is also why the horribly long timers were stupid. Depriving you of playing is a stupid death penalty. A penalty can be both hurtful and not penalizing in gameplay, and that's a good death penalty. Again, XP loss is a good example of this, but surely a lot of other penalties may apply. The closest I can think of would be gold loss : each time you die, you lose 5% of your current total gold (maybe capped ? maybe something like 1 million max ?)
Edited by ParkerLewis#2105 on 11/1/2013 8:47 AM PDT
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Losing NV is not the way to go imo. I've been in so many multi-player games where someone had 5 NV and someone else has 2, so we have to get him to 5 before killing the key warden. (Oh wait he died, so now we have to get him another one) Having to worry if every one is at 5 NV is hard enough as it is at times imo.

Want to do ubers? (in which most people including myself sometimes die a couple times) you would be running out of elite packs to refresh every ones 5 stack.

Losing experience on death seems like a huge step backwards to me. I can't even begin to tell you how many times I have died on my way to my current paragon 63 ( not even half way).

Just how much experience would we lose ? How much longer would it take to get to paragon level 100 ? Or 1000 when the expansion is released. I bet if you asked someone who went from level 73 to 100 most would say they have died more times than they can remember.

In my opinion a harsh death penalty might discourage exploration/experimentation with new builds and equipment.
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Use D2 example, you die, you lose XP. Also, losing a stack could be added to the death penalty.
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A death penalty sounds like a pretty bad idea to me. My favorite class to play is the Demon Hunter. I think it's fairly common knowledge that Demon Hunters die way more frequently than most other classes. Also, I play on a somewhat dated laptop computer with a spotty internet connection. I play very well and am fantastic at surviving, but sometimes there is literally nothing I can do to avoid death. If they implemented a death penalty, I would stop playing the class I have the most fun with just out of frustration.
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11/01/2013 07:43 AMPosted by Kilometer
As for those who wants death reduce the experience points, why don't you just suggest something like you need 30 seconds~1 minute to respawn and those timers are accumulative if you kept dying. If you look at different perspective, it is same as losing experience as you didn't earn any experience because you are waiting to respawn.


For the reasons I mentioned, it is absolutely not the same. One lets you continue playing immediately and enjoying the game.

The other deprives you of enjoying the game by simply forbidding you to play the game.

They really can't be more apart than this.

And because one of them is really bad, doesn't imply in any way that an other would be.

Losing experience on death seems like a huge step backwards to me. I can't even begin to tell you how many times I have died on my way to my current paragon 63 ( not even half way).

Just how much experience would we lose ? How much longer would it take to get to paragon level 100 ? Or 1000 when the expansion is released. I bet if you asked someone who went from level 73 to 100 most would say they have died more times than they can remember.

In my opinion a harsh death penalty might discourage exploration/experimentation with new builds and equipment.


The "classic" (d2 style) idea would be, a percentage of your current XP bar : ie, if you're Paragon 63, the xp needed to go to P64 is X million exp. Every time you die, you'd lose 5% of X (for example), while never going under the floor of P63.

I think d2 was 10%, but that was indeed a lot, especially in a D3 environment where the skill system encourages you to test new builds (which was not possible in D2).

You could also have an XP cap to the loss inflicted : ie, not more than half an hour worth of leveling.

11/01/2013 08:46 AMPosted by Phenomenal
A death penalty sounds like a pretty bad idea to me. My favorite class to play is the Demon Hunter. I think it's fairly common knowledge that Demon Hunters die way more frequently than most other classes. Also, I play on a somewhat dated laptop computer with a spotty internet connection. I play very well and am fantastic at surviving, but sometimes there is literally nothing I can do to avoid death. If they implemented a death penalty, I would stop playing the class I have the most fun with just out of frustration.


To be fair, if this is as you're describing it, then that sounds more like a problem of class design. I have not played the DH, but if you say there is literally nothing you can do to avoid death, then :

- either you should gear /skill less agressively and more defensively (you probably tried already), or reduce the MP setting

- or, if you have already *seriously* (emphasis on seriously) tried and that's simply not really helping (ie you're still suffering *unavoidable* deaths), then it means there is a problem with the class design.

Which if there indeed is, would of course be a problem that should be fixed, but the solution would not to forcing other game mechanics (death) to adapt to it. So, I wish you they'd fix the DH if it needs to, but that problem shouldn't interfere with the death mechanic :)

A good death penalty should

1) Not be a downward spiral
Which means, it should not press people further and further down.
Thus penalizing those who are already suffering.
An example would be losing items on death, where you make someone weaker, so they are even more likely do die next time. Or losing lvls as another extreme.
This is connected to:

2) The thing lost should be unlimited in supply, but valuable to all players
As in, don't take something away from people, which they can run out of - preventing them from continuing.
Example: Don't take gold away from people.
Either people have so much gold they do not care, or they have so little that you get back to point 1.
While you should not be able to lose something you can potentially run out of, the flip-side is, that the thing lost should be something everyone desires to have.

3) Never make penalties time-based.
A 5 minute debuff for example only makes people go afk for 5 minutes. With the risk of them just leaving the game - which isnt exactly in Blizzards interest.
Timers are ineffective and non-fun penalties.
This leads to:

4) A death penalty should encourage you to get back into the fight
Whatever the player loses, it should be something they can (only) regain by going out and destroy monsters.
That is more fun, and it encourages getting up on the horse again.

I don't really care how exactly how a death penalty is designed, as long as it follows these rules.

Losing NV, or getting a new type of Survival Bonus as Magna describes, can both fulfill these criteria. As long as the loss is valuable enough for people to care.


I think you're globally spot-on. The only point where I might disapprove is your gold loss example. You have to keep in mind it's possible to make it a penalty without making it a problem.

First, it can (and certainly would anyway) be proportional to your current gold amount. So the less you have, the less it would impact you.

Second, nothing prevents the mechanic having caps / safeguards (that is something that internet forum posters often just don't consider can exist no matter what they're advocating against). For example, if you have less than "a certain value" of gold, the loss is not applied. Or if you have more than "another certain value", it is capped.

Now, of course it would only make sense if gold is still valuable, and valuable in large quantities, which today is not the case once you remove the AH. I mean, there is just nothing in the game that costs more than maybe 1 or 2 million (some recipes), so there would be no reason to stack up gold more than this, so players would just use it as quick as they could (enchanting or whatever) to avaoid paying higher death penalties. Which is not good either, as you dont want to have players starting to adapt their non-combat related (gearing, skilling, combating) activities to it as it just turns negates the penalty and replaces it with an everyday chore (which obviously is bad game design).
Edited by ParkerLewis#2105 on 11/1/2013 9:41 AM PDT
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There are plenty of people on both sides of this discussion. I see the points of not wanting to punish people for their frequent deaths, but also wanting to make death have more meaning. I find there are several ways to make people happier on both ends, without really changing their game.

1.) Choose a Death Penalty. Allow players to choose to have some sort of death penalty, just like they would choose for which monster power they want to play at. Let there be options like: 3 deaths and kick, 1 death and kick, Experience loss (to where you started at when joining that game), or none. This would allow people to play in their style of play and find people who feel the same. If you are a P100 Barb and can backpack anyone regardless of their skill, by all means, choose "none" for the death penalty. You can help people, and that always makes you feel better.

2.) Reward the Survivors. I have heard of extra MF and what not, but I am not really thinking that is a great idea. Not saying I wouldn't like it, but I think it can lead to bigger problems. Why not do something like reward players with extra passive skills. I don't see a good way of implementing this, but there are a few games that reward you for surviving and giving them skills is how I have seen them done. There are more passives that are great, but can't use because certain builds require certain skills. Just a thought really.

3.) Make survive-ability equal among all classes. (I am not big into this one, but to some it is an issue.) In the higher MP's you are going to have enemies around you, regardless of what class you play. Some classes are dependent upon their dps to stay alive, some just have the passive skills to "stop death" (ask I would call it) because they can reduce the damage being taken, regardless of their dps.

Just brain storming some ideas that I have seen or thought of. Maybe there will be a middle ground where people can meet. I honestly think giving the player more options on choosing their game style and game type gives people freedom. That way they can find people that share their game values.
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Stupid idea. Leave the game alone and fix the loot already!
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D3 doesn't need a death penalty. I don't get why some gamers are such masochists when it comes to playing games but it really does seem to be the case. How about this the death penalty can be......exactly what it is right. The time getting back to where you were as well as the repair cost is plenty enough punishment. If you want more DO FRIGGING HARDCORE.
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10/22/2013 08:28 AMPosted by Magna
I'd prefer a 'Survival Bonus' applied to either MF or Drop Rate, that persists between games and logins, takes a long time (hours of play) to build up, and decreases a little every time you die.


great idea
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I think dying in itself is enough deterrent... who really wants to die? I sure as hell don't. Most of the time I even die, it has to do with affixes that aren't even random. This usually consists of inferno mp5+ fire chain/vortex/teleport/fast and other mixes with arcane sentry stuff like jailer and vortex mixed in. Why should we be penalized for the programming that is at fault? It's already frustrating enough dying in hardcore because of the bull---- affixes. they need to be randomized better because getting the same tedious affixes all game is such a mood killer. In hardcore, it's bull and I believe we shouldn't have to be forced to farm in a boring environment just to stay alive. In normal, time is enough of a loss. It's not like Diablo 2 where we can get back to our area after death almost immediately. On top of that, as applied to with affixes in hardcore, dealing with the same combination of affixes that break the game is enough of a deterrent which should be addressed. Diablo 3 is getting better and I played it since release and still play it now, and affixes seem to be a problem as it is always a collection of tedious deterrents at every blue or yellow mob. The blue mobs are the notorious ones though I'd like to point out for the affixes. If anyone can explain what I'm trying to say better then please help me.

Point and case about normal death... No one wants to die. Loss of time and interruption of flow is bad enough. For all of the uncontrollable eventing we players have to face, many of us ask for buffs and mf increases. We never got that in Diablo 2. Why now? Surely there is a better way to fix such a question than more buffs to stats/item finds/mf/gold, but I wont complain. It is a pretty neat idea to stay alive long and have a nice buff that drops by a percentage if you die. Still, the affixes need work and some game priorities need to be addressed.

2.) Reward the Survivors. I have heard of extra MF and what not, but I am not really thinking that is a great idea. Not saying I wouldn't like it, but I think it can lead to bigger problems. Why not do something like reward players with extra passive skills. I don't see a good way of implementing this, but there are a few games that reward you for surviving and giving them skills is how I have seen them done. There are more passives that are great, but can't use because certain builds require certain skills. Just a thought really.


Call me crazy but I like your second section on passive skills. It reminds me of Streets of Rage 3 on the Sega Genesis. From normal mode and higher, The four default characters can gain special abilities if they don't die every 40,000 points. Stacks 3 times. The signature skill changes based on the amount of stacks. Stack one, quicker signature that is still basic but reaches out farther. Stack 2, the signature skill changes into something more powerful and looks pretty bad !@#. Stack 3, Signature skill 2 is extended with a complete animation that does a ton of damage and sometimes covers the area. Forget extra buffs... This might sound crazy, but this idea may be a better road to take. You still are not by any means invincible, but at least you can keep flow of play, feel like a complete bad $%^, and possibly deal with broken constant affix match ups in mp5+. Its just a wild thought I literally came up with spur of the moment.

Okay I finally fit everything into the forum rules I think... lol
Edited by Darkryne#1740 on 11/1/2013 10:30 AM PDT
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Not read the whole thread but I see a few interesting points being singled out

A good death penalty should
Never make penalties time-based.
A 5 minute debuff for example only makes people go afk for 5 minutes. With the risk of them just leaving the game - which isnt exactly in Blizzards interest.
Timers are ineffective and non-fun penalties


Losing exp/Nephelam seems to be a realistic penalty imo, as many have stated it will encourage players to look for EHP gear rather than being heavily DPS only focused. I created a similar thread earlier this year and got an amazing amount of flamers who believes the death "penalty" is already rightly balanced - I believe most of them have now deserted the game as it offers no challenge (and/or reward). Hopefully Blizzard will make a bold move on this and justify the difficulty and challenge in game.
Edited by Chewbecca#3227 on 11/1/2013 10:32 AM PDT
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My friend and I have recently implemented a rule of : If you die you must drop a rare unidentified item for your friend.(make it two or three if this is not enough incentive) Even though the items are usually turds we have found ourselves trying much harder to not corpse flail..Neither of us wants to be the one who has to give up an item to the other. Try this in your next game with your regular running buddies. :)
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If people are already pissed off that they have to re-stack NV "to get to the meaningful part of the game" each time they switch builds or change games, I have lost faith in the community to figure out a good death penalty.
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For the reasons I mentioned, it is absolutely not the same. One lets you continue playing immediately and enjoying the game.


Enjoying the game after he lost a portion of exp? Sorry, only masochist likes this. Since you think losing exp is cool, why don't you make it more interesting by removing the check point and resurrection feature as well? This definitely will force the player think twice when it comes to dying because they have to travel from the town to the location where they got killed with foot.

Losing exp = wasted time + walking distance = wasted time = YOUR ULTIMATE DEATH PENALTY.

At least for the death timer, the player can wait or go to wash room or take a drink, and continue to enjoy the game after he got respawned. In some sense, he still lost a chuck of experience points because he has to wait.
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I started playing Hardcore because I felt that Normal mode was meaningless. The penalty for dying is extremely trivial.

Normal mode, because of its constant rate of progression and little to no consequences for either doing well or doing poorly, has a negative affect on the economy, teamwork, and overall sense of progression.

When I got to level 60 in Normal, I realized a few things:
1. I could level another character, but as long as I played I was guaranteed to get to 60. I thought that was a lack of challenge. I didn't feel a sense of accomplishment. (In WoW it's different because a large portion of the game is about discovery, mechanics, dungeons, multiplayer, etc, whereas in Diablo it's strictly about character/item progression).
2. The low level AH was nearly void of items, and no one would buy my lowbie items I put up on the AH. There was no economy unless you were 60.
3. Diablo III is a great game, and I could see myself having fun with it, but I wasn't currently having fun. Something had to change.

I created a HC character, and pretty much instantly started having fun. All of a sudden the items, mechanics, team-play, and monster difficulty actually meant something. Also, i realized that there's a thriving economy because players are creating new characters all the time, and because items are being lost, therefore creating an environment where many items are powerful, even the ones with wonky stats and not just the level 63 items.

I'm not sure what i recommend for consequences/penalty for dying in Normal, but for me Diablo III is completely pointless in softcore. To me, the fun, meaningful decisions, and strategy exist in HC.

Personally, I think players should lose a random item on their character if they die; or the item becomes broken and 'irrepairable' except by the blacksmith for a fee. But, maybe that's a bit harsh. I do think there should be some happy medium between SC and HC (while still keeping HC of course), but I don't know what that is.
Edited by eskunu#1640 on 11/1/2013 11:08 AM PDT
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