Diablo® III

Will the Real Death Penalty Please Stand Up?

11/01/2013 02:51 PMPosted by AOHNH
I thought this topic was about the death penalty, not gear. I'm confused. :/

Ok, I'll fill in the missing links.

Harsher death penalty = players will try to avoid it more = stack more AR/vit/armor = HC style gearing.


Whats wrong with players avoiding death? Is that a bad thing?
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11/01/2013 02:48 PMPosted by Bombus
It was just an example of a similar reason.

It doesn't seem to apply, for the argument given.

You lay out a very poor argument yourself.. The death penalty is not there to actually punish you, it is there to make the game more exciting.

So, change the wording to "excite me" then. The topic is about death penalty. Sure sounds a lot like punishment.

You have a very defensive and binary position on this.

Because it is not broken, so there's nothing to fix. Why implement ideas that push into stricter gearing when all gear is already very much like "binary"?

We're not looking for torment here, that's what HC is for.
We just want a better incentive to have a good defense.

Why? The incentive is already there: farm faster, gain XP faster, get more loot. Get a bigger friend list. This should be good enough.

As it stands now, equipping a shield means that you are hampering your partys overall dps, nevermind if you do well enough, you could still do better if you dualwielded or twohanded.
That means that players rather like other players to stack up on offense to speed up the progression, especially since there is no tangible penalty for death.
It's not that everyone should start turtling up all of the sudden, but that gearing defensively would be looked upon as something reasonable to do.

If you bypass the defensive stats/skills and die all the time, you will hamper your party. So in this case there's no big difference between going all out DPS and no defense or going all out defense and no DPS. Efficient farmers get both. So why should we tip the scale towards more defensive setups? Is the gear not narrow enough already?
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Like I said, you're approaching this in a very binary manner.
It's either HC penalty all out defensive gearing or there is all out offense without a penalty.

It's both because of incentivizing better defense and encourage proper difficulty choosing.
More fun with balanced setups. And then you could expect the dps to vary more as well.
Survival should be the priority over glasscannon offense. But that don't mean you would somehow be disallowed to stack up on offense, as long as you can handle it.
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I kind of like the idea of losing a NV for every few deaths, say 3-5. You can get that back and it doesn't cost you anything but efficiency and stat boosts. You can never fall below where you start and it kind of makes sense. Valor is hardly an attribute of the dead.
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11/01/2013 02:53 PMPosted by Griever
Can easily tweak the ingredients formula. And i want that kind of changes not because of my own playstyle, as you can see from my profile, i don't actually gear like a retard spamming IAS/CC/CD and i can play the game. I want some kind of death penalty so i stop being stuck with complete droolers in pub games that spend more time dead than alive and i want some thrill back into the game without going "all or nothing" as i can't afford playing Hardcore due to sharing my internet connection with 6 other people.

You are not "stuck" with them. Play with your friends - it works like a charm.

As far as thrill factor - that's purely subjective. For me personally current game design already has enough deterrents to avoid deaths.
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11/01/2013 02:54 PMPosted by Tommerbob
Whats wrong with players avoiding death? Is that a bad thing?

Of course not. So go ahead and avoid them. As far as I know, no one is forcing you to die all the time.
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My .02 cents, do NOT make a bigger death penalty, as said before it will only hurt in the long run,

A good death penalty should

1) Not be a downward spiral
Which means, it should not press people further and further down.
Thus penalizing those who are already suffering.
An example would be losing items on death, where you make someone weaker, so they are even more likely do die next time. Or losing lvls as another extreme.
This is connected to:

2) The thing lost should be unlimited in supply, but valuable to all players
As in, don't take something away from people, which they can run out of - preventing them from continuing.
Example: Don't take gold away from people.
Either people have so much gold they do not care, or they have so little that you get back to point 1.
While you should not be able to lose something you can potentially run out of, the flip-side is, that the thing lost should be something everyone desires to have.

3) Never make penalties time-based.
A 5 minute debuff for example only makes people go afk for 5 minutes. With the risk of them just leaving the game - which isnt exactly in Blizzards interest.
Timers are ineffective and non-fun penalties.
This leads to:

4) A death penalty should encourage you to get back into the fight
Whatever the player loses, it should be something they can (only) regain by going out and destroy monsters.
That is more fun, and it encourages getting up on the horse again.

I don't really care how exactly how a death penalty is designed, as long as it follows these rules.

Losing NV, or getting a new type of Survival Bonus as Magna describes, can both fulfill these criteria. As long as the loss is valuable enough for people to care.


I totally agree with this guy, and I agree with the people that are saying that a bonus to staying alive would be better (and probably a better incentive to some people that just wouldn't care) that a death penalty...1 guy had the idea to make it a "buff" that goes off how long you lived/how much exp you accrue & then drop it down a level or two when you die, if coded correctly I can see this being an awesome reason to live.
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11/01/2013 02:56 PMPosted by Griever
So you consider normal to purposely avoid half of the game's stats? How is that even remotely interesting?

Players seem to avoid stats like thorns and health globe bonus. Should we change the game so that everyone is REQUIRED to use them?
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Like I said, you're approaching this in a very binary manner.
It's either HC penalty all out defensive gearing or there is all out offense without a penalty.

That's not what I said. I said that all out offense has its drawbacks, and those are already "bad" enough.

It's both because of incentivizing better defense and encourage proper difficulty choosing.

Proper for ... you? Do you need Blizzard to tell you what difficulty level you should be playing?

More fun with balanced setups. And then you could expect the dps to vary more as well.
Survival should be the priority over glasscannon offense.

Why? What is so bad about glass cannons? If you don't like them, don't build them. Perhaps some players feel a thrill when playing glass cannons?

Why should everyone gear like a tank?
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11/01/2013 03:51 PMPosted by AOHNH
It's both because of incentivizing better defense and encourage proper difficulty choosing.


Proper for ... you? Do you need Blizzard to tell you what difficulty level you should be playing?


Actually, I think it shouldn't be a mandatory requirement to have a certain EHPS and DPS to go in a certain zone, but it Blizzard could at least guide the players or warn them if they are going to a stronger area that they could normaly handle by themself.

Some people like challenge. Like me, but others might want to go easy mode. Although I don't like hardcore mode, cause i like trying crazy stuff by myself or with my friends as a personal challenge and try again if I failed at some point.

A good way to put it into words would be to do like in WoW(I don't want D3 to be a MMO) with the quest log color indication. Instead of quest, it would be a Zone indication.
GREY= You shouldn't be here anymore.
GREEN= You are stronger than your foes, but you'ill die if you are afk.
YELLOW= This is getting interesting. Be careful!
ORANGE= You are fighting on even strenght.
RED= Are you crazy?? You will die! ...Wut? You actually manage to surived!! Congratulation.

10/22/2013 08:28 AMPosted by Magna
I'd prefer a 'Survival Bonus' applied to either MF or Drop Rate, that persists between games and logins, takes a long time (hours of play) to build up, and decreases a little every time you die.


Hey!

I upvoted, because the previous Diablo III director wanted to make gold very important and items less important and he did succed, but that had a direct impact on how player's mind would react to a drop: "Hey, this worth no gold" or "hey this worth 100 000 000 gold!!". ( very rare, eh? )

However, Josh Mosqueira pointed that out (I think it was him.) and decided to take a different approach. He decided to make LOOT much more important, so the player will be more interesting about killing monsters. I think the decision made is a step in the right direction. You want to drop good LOOT with 2.0 itemization, right?

This decision also have a direct impact on how the player perceive golds. In matter of facts, the hunt of currency system ( Capitalism ) have been replaced by the hunt of epic items and shining loots. To be honest, the capitalism system is not suited for an ARPG game. It tends to make rich people richer, poor people poorer. Thus, increasing the gap between experienced players and the newer players that just joined to community doom to be eternal noobs. ( A season reset is also mandatory to refresh the economy and give new opportunities. That's the only reason I keep playing Diablo II. )

Finaly, I think what players need is a bridge between those two types of player so they can evolve to new highs together and enjoy a team-based Diablo III experience. I almost forgot to answer the question of the OP...

The actual death penality is based on an individual in a currency system interacting with other people. When it rather should be based on a team-effort penality or a lost of benefits previously gain as a team. You don't like my idea? You can still create a solo-game. :)
[Ex.: a portion of Paragon xp boost lost, xp lost, level lost ( I like debuffs, remember those shrines in Diablo I ?), group magic find penality, a random buff gain after "x" elites slain lost, etc. ]

~Thorad
Edited by Thorad#1511 on 11/1/2013 4:38 PM PDT
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Uhh, I thought this was obvious.

Play HARDCORE
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My .02 cents, do NOT make a bigger death penalty, as said before it will only hurt in the long run,

A good death penalty should

1) Not be a downward spiral
Which means, it should not press people further and further down.
Thus penalizing those who are already suffering.
An example would be losing items on death, where you make someone weaker, so they are even more likely do die next time. Or losing lvls as another extreme.
This is connected to:

2) The thing lost should be unlimited in supply, but valuable to all players
As in, don't take something away from people, which they can run out of - preventing them from continuing.
Example: Don't take gold away from people.
Either people have so much gold they do not care, or they have so little that you get back to point 1.
While you should not be able to lose something you can potentially run out of, the flip-side is, that the thing lost should be something everyone desires to have.

3) Never make penalties time-based.
A 5 minute debuff for example only makes people go afk for 5 minutes. With the risk of them just leaving the game - which isnt exactly in Blizzards interest.
Timers are ineffective and non-fun penalties.
This leads to:

4) A death penalty should encourage you to get back into the fight
Whatever the player loses, it should be something they can (only) regain by going out and destroy monsters.
That is more fun, and it encourages getting up on the horse again.

I don't really care how exactly how a death penalty is designed, as long as it follows these rules.

Losing NV, or getting a new type of Survival Bonus as Magna describes, can both fulfill these criteria. As long as the loss is valuable enough for people to care.


I totally agree with this guy, and I agree with the people that are saying that a bonus to staying alive would be better (and probably a better incentive to some people that just wouldn't care) that a death penalty...1 guy had the idea to make it a "buff" that goes off how long you lived/how much exp you accrue & then drop it down a level or two when you die, if coded correctly I can see this being an awesome reason to live.

I also like that reason.
A survival bonus would be better than a penalty.

11/01/2013 03:51 PMPosted by AOHNH
Like I said, you're approaching this in a very binary manner.
Why should everyone gear like a tank?

Having said that, again, I do see your concern.
I don't want to pidgeonhole people, but what happens now is just that, climbing mp requires dps firstly. That mean dps gear is the only gear of real value.
It's not that I think it should be the other way around, but I think a balanced build should get rewarded and a survival buff would do that to an extent.
Then maybe a defensively geared player wouldn't be frowned upon and perhaps a slower pace could be accepted if there was smarts in caution?
It could at least lean towards that moreso than it does now. And that would also increase the value of more types of gear.

The highest difficulty should require very fine gear, not only dps, but a nice varied gear.
It does, but is heavily weighed towards dps.
Some of that can be blamed on the weak death penalty. Or if you will, a lack of a survivalist buff. Which would, incidentally, give HC a permanent boon.
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In softcore, there is little to no need for a death penalty in my opinion, other than to be a gold sink.

If you want a death penalty, play hardcore, if you want to build a squishy char that dies constantly, play softcore.

Im glad that softcore is the game mode I can play when I get my 1500ms latency and not be too punished for dying, when Im already being punished for my unfortunate geographic handicap...
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The way a game survives is by getting a LOT of players. Most of you with this high death penalty idea have a HUGE superiority complex because of time you spent mastering it. I know a few of you and I am in awe of what all is involved. But think about this as if it were your business and you wanted it to succeed. The first posting with a reward like system that builds over time as long as you don't die, Smart. It would be nice to win some rare items that are actually useful, and not have to rely on the Auction House. It would be nice if my Artisans could build something Useful and evolve on their own (AI). These are the kind of things that Bonus could do and if you die you loose that bonus and have to start over. But there are a LOT of casual players who do bring money into this game, who would not play (cuz they suck, I know I have played with them too), if they lost experience or items.

If that is something that the GOD level people want, I think there should be another progression Level for the Gods, who are the people that actually put a lot of time mastering the game. After Inferno comes "Chaos Masters" Then "Demi Gods" Then "Legions". Make those levels for only the real serious players, and have a website Forums dedicated and limited to those players in those Levels. Legions can play as if you have a Maxed out team even if you go at it in Single player and should be gear towards your FAILURE unless you truly are a Master.

This would just appease a bigger variety of people. Casual, Serious and Hardcore.
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Playing Hard Core is awesome because of the adrenaline rush it gives. The fear of death gives so much flavor to playing the game. Actually dying though may feel a little too harsh, especially if it happens because of a reason that is not in the hands of the player (read: disconnect).

The point is:
  • The fear of death is awesome. It affects in your gameplay in a more engaging way and every now and then pumps up some adrenaline.
  • Actually dying is not awesome. That is the moment when the penalty / loss of reward or whatever is applied and it is not supposed to feel good. However, if the penalty is too high it may become too frustrating to die and thus might be discouraging to play the game anymore.
  • I want the adrenaline. I want a (better) reason(s) to avoid death / to stay alive. Soft Core does not provide at the moment and Hard Core is fun but I fear the potential disconnect.

    PS. I mainly play in EU if you happen to check my profile and wonder that I have no HC characters in US. I play zero Auction House (aka. Self Found) here.
    Edited by rottana#2690 on 11/1/2013 5:30 PM PDT
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    Any discussion of applying a death penalty fails to address the fact that Blizzard deliver a different quality of service in different countries.

    Last night my friend told me I was dead and 30 seconds later I died. When you are playing with up to 30 seconds of lag, you don't need more penalties. Now 30 seconds is extreme but 3 o 5 seconds of lag is common.

    Applying a significant death penalty was OK in Diablo 2 because I was playing it locally. Forcing me to use a remoter server and penalizing me double for lag is unreasonable.
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    May I suggest a third difficulty level?

    Normal difficulty - Death returns you to the last checkpoint. Remove the durability damage on death (it does bugger-all anyway). The individual enemy who killed you has their health replenished, but the rest of the pack stay depleted.

    Medium difficulty - Death returns you to the beginning of the current quest. No durability damage on death. All enemies have health replenished. MF and GF bonuses set to 0% until you have killed the enemy that killed you, but MF and GF bonuses do apply to that enemy.

    Hardcore - As is.
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    A death penalty sounds like a pretty bad idea to me. My favorite class to play is the Demon Hunter. I think it's fairly common knowledge that Demon Hunters die way more frequently than most other classes. Also, I play on a somewhat dated laptop computer with a spotty internet connection. I play very well and am fantastic at surviving, but sometimes there is literally nothing I can do to avoid death. If they implemented a death penalty, I would stop playing the class I have the most fun with just out of frustration.


    To be fair, if this is as you're describing it, then that sounds more like a problem of class design. I have not played the DH, but if you say there is literally nothing you can do to avoid death, then :

    - either you should gear /skill less agressively and more defensively (you probably tried already), or reduce the MP setting

    - or, if you have already *seriously* (emphasis on seriously) tried and that's simply not really helping (ie you're still suffering *unavoidable* deaths), then it means there is a problem with the class design.

    Which if there indeed is, would of course be a problem that should be fixed, but the solution would not to forcing other game mechanics (death) to adapt to it. So, I wish you they'd fix the DH if it needs to, but that problem shouldn't interfere with the death mechanic :)


    I think you missed my point. A death penalty is not a highlight feature of this game.

    If a death penalty like you are describing was added, you would INSTANTLY dissuade many people from:
    1) playing the weakest end-game class (demon hunter currently)
    2) playing on higher MP levels
    3) playing Diablo 3 on any computer but a high performance computer with a solid internet connection

    Your death penalty could possibly eliminate the "middle class" of this game. Gamers with good computers and lots of skill would shine, anyone who played casually would suffer and fall behind. This does not sound like a good addition to a diverse gaming community. Diablo 1, 2, AND 3 have all included many types of gamers. If you want hardcore.... wait for the unlimited paragon levels, and use your time efficiently and skillfully to be the best at that. Don't make us casual gamers suffer for your desire to play a stupid-hard game.
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