Diablo® III

Trolling AH and d2jsp for stuff...

Thanks for the JSP bumps folks.

I hardly search for stuff but just keep ears open. Weird buy and sell requests do come now and then and it's nice when I act as a marriage maker lol
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Sucks when you've reached the point where you know you have a better chance of winning the lottery than have the game you have fun with will give you an upgrade drop.
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My issue with the closing of the AHs is that it removes a quality of life service for a good portion of the player base but does nothing to address the actual problem. If they fixed the underlying problem, I don't see why they couldn't exist in tandem.


Removing the AH slows the distribution of items found, account bound takes items out of the market, and (hopefully) new legendaries broaden the definition of what is considered a 'perfect' item.

All these things delay the inevitable item creep which I think is the best action that can be taken in the amount of time they have to apply it and working within the game system already on everybody's computers.

You point out the issue and say that it is inherent to random drop systems over time, and I would agree. But that isn't proposing a fundamental solution like what you ask for.

And that point about the broad variation in item rolls....did you see what %wpn dmg that echoing fury rolled in the mystic preview? or what CC values the items we have seen so far are rolling?
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And that point about the broad variation in item rolls....did you see what %wpn dmg that echoing fury rolled in the mystic preview? or what CC values the items we have seen so far are rolling?


It's hard to comment on a couple numbers without any indication of what they really represent. It could be a drastic cut of the maxium roll. It could just be a broadening of the ranges rollable. Without knowing the whole picture it's just speculation.

You point out the issue and say that it is inherent to random drop systems over time, and I would agree. But that isn't proposing a fundamental solution like what you ask for.


You expected a point by point breakdown of how to fix it? I answered you in broad strokes. It's pointless for me to try to give specific numbers without having any actual data on the actual drop figures currently or projected for Loot 2.0. It's also Blizzard's baby and their ideal target for average loot quality is up them and my not be the same as what I might suggest.

I did say that I thought the Mystic was a step forward with the near miss cases. I mentioned feeling that BoA items capable of being BiS have a place in combatting the problem. "Smart Drops" are a bit of an unknown yet. All of that is encouraging though.

If I wanted to address the randomness of rolls in the current loot system:

-I would probably look at some sort of system of weighted rolls. In order for this to work you'd have to identify what are the overall most desirable rolls and what is less so. For a weapon it might be that socket, LS (or LoH), CHD, IAS, primary stat and damage rolls are the most valued. Then you could tweak the loot system so that it had a (just an example number) 50% of rolling each of them before it went on to the lesser desired affixes. That would work out to about 1 in 64 weapon drops dropping with all 6 of the most desirable rolls on it (each still randomly rolled). If that frequency is too high, then lower the weighting but you get the idea. You want to increase the frequency of getting good combinations, yet not exclude some of the more specialized possibilities (stun on hit, etc).

-Make sure that items had a high chance of rolling affixes at the maximum affix level for their item level. By this I mean make it something like a 75% chance that any given affix on an ilevel 63 item is rolled as a level 63 affix property (and not lower). You could further weight this for the next affix level down and so on as well.

-I would look at the ranges for a given affix and make sure they were reasonably sized. For instance, instead of allowing an int roll to range from 30-100, make it more consistent like 75-100.

All of the above are ways of improving the average "% of max potential" of dropped items. I'm not suggesting those exact numbers but just an overall method of doing it.

I'm sure there are other ways to do it as well. Blizzard has a dev team full of professionals and I would hope that they could come up with a few other ideas towards this end as well. Maybe their new "smart drops" include one or all of the above already.

-dolynick
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-Make sure that items had a high chance of rolling affixes at the maximum affix level for their item level. By this I mean make it something like a 75% chance that any given affix on an ilevel 63 item is rolled as a level 63 affix property (and not lower). You could further weight this for the next affix level down and so on as well.


There is another possibility too at least for legendaries and set items. Each time the game drops a specific legendary item for a player in-game it's fixed stat values are forced higher and higher till the reach maximum roll for each fixed stat. Once that good legendary drops then this stat counter starts over.

I.e. Say you get 11 chantodo's Forces in 500 hours of playing. That 11th drop would force an amazing rolled legendary, with only the non-fixed rolls (read random property(ies) to be that random. This concept would work in both this current itemization and future itemization implementations. This would also help the whole self found vs auction house dilemma facing the developers.
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booz is better then me ; he found me an ammy and 2 pairs of gloves.

on the other hand my supply is larger then his ; i troll the chinese forums and find good stuff.

I guess booz is more serious about flipping ; I think I flip when i want ( which is almost all the time)


Sounds about right.

I was telling some of the guys how I do it.

I have around 15-20 "dummy" items that I search for in my stash allowing me to input stats in with 2 clicks instead of 10 clicks per item.

This increases my searching efficiency.

But ya I'm still a noob on the 163 forums haven't closed many deals through that site yet.

I'm strictly GAH to RMAH guy. And surprisingly the cow is still mooing.

I saw a decent pair of lacunis on the GAH yesterday that almost fit your stats piehole.

Was 6/9 50/50/50 somewhere around there for 1.8. Probably worth it but not sure if you want the 50 ish AR.
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thanks for looking booz. I have a decent ammy and lacunis...but need slightly better...the items in question are on my wiz galinda. I just need more DPS out of the ammy...and I think I need AR instead of armor....its just not enough armor. So, like 60 AR I think will do at a minimum...I don't think i need the VIT (a luxury...now that I have VIT on WH).
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Theres a 5.5/8 50/70/70ar on jsp right now front page.

Probably go 1-1.5b would be okay.

Maybe kick his tires
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I.e. Say you get 11 chantodo's Forces in 500 hours of playing. That 11th drop would force an amazing rolled legendary, with only the non-fixed rolls (read random property(ies) to be that random. This concept would work in both this current itemization and future itemization implementations. This would also help the whole self found vs auction house dilemma facing the developers.

You guys do realize that botters are the source for pretty much all the "dilemmas" we have today, right?

If we went with your "forced amazingly rolled legendary" in the current state of affairs, botters would roll them far faster than everyone else, put them on the AH, and the rest of us would buy them.

The AH doesn't create or destroy wealth (barring transaction fees). It's just a trading medium.

It doesn't matter where you fix the average. No matter what, botters are going to find better items and amass far greater amounts of gold than any player.

You can make the loot system similar to what the console versions seem to be like (I haven't played it) and make it easy to self-find very strong gear in a short period of time.

But even then, botters will find better gear, and if you're interested in being at the very top, you will inevitably have to rely on them for either gold or items, if not both. (Almost all of us do currently, even if its in an indirect fashion)

In any system where items are based on multiple randomized rolls over a range, there is going to be an average. They can increase stats and drops rates as much as they want it'll still be the case. As soon as you get to the point where your gear is at the statistical mean, you'll be back in the same boat as we are now - where finding upgrades via drops is inefficient compared to trading


It's a tough problem to solve. You can't just look at the mean gear quality for given amount of playtime, because for every hour you put in, botters are putting in thousands. Meaning that seeking gear by means outside of playing the game will pretty much always be the most efficient route.
Edited by silverfire#1855 on 10/31/2013 1:40 PM PDT
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This is an interesting discussion.

As a designer, I'd ask myself, how would I want my upgrades to go?

Do I want a bunch of upgrades at the beginning, and then fewer and fewer as time goes by? (This is the current model.)

Or do I want a bunch of upgrades, which are required to allow me to survive a dungeon, where I can find a bunch of new upgrades, and repeat that a couple of times?

Or do I want to run around, and every so often (but at a constant rate), find a unique item that gives me a whole new build and a new set of upgrades?

Or do I want to collect some token slowly, and use it for upgrades? (Note that this style of upgrade would have no upper limit!)

If the BiS items could only be self-found and were also BoA, then that'd lessen the need to trade.

Maybe trading should be restricted to crafting/mystic/transmog components only. Just stop all item trading completely.

I'd also like a bit more focus on risk versus reward. How many times have you managed to kill a really nasty elite pack or triple pack and see no interesting stuff drop at all?

What I'm hoping Bliz does is figure out how to make playing the game for another year really fun and interesting and challenging.
Edited by mou#1752 on 10/31/2013 2:20 PM PDT
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You guys do realize that botters are the source for pretty much all the "dilemmas" we have today, right?

If we went with your "forced amazingly rolled legendary" in the current state of affairs, botters would roll them far faster than everyone else, put them on the AH, and the rest of us would buy them.

The AH doesn't create or destroy wealth (barring transaction fees). It's just a trading medium.

It doesn't matter where you fix the average. No matter what, botters are going to find better items and amass far greater amounts of gold than any player.

You can make the loot system similar to what the console versions seem to be like (I haven't played it) and make it easy to self-find very strong gear in a short period of time.

But even then, botters will find better gear, and if you're interested in being at the very top, you will inevitably have to rely on them for either gold or items, if not both. (Almost all of us do currently, even if its in an indirect fashion


Silver not trolling or anything I want you to Count all the actual "Upgrades" this game has dropped for you. Something that when it dropped Would replace a current slot. I would argue that after level 7 you may have found 1-2 items... The current itemization has no virtual way to improve gear through playing the game. Call it because blizzard wanted to fight botting or what not, fact is there is a serious lack of loot compared to previous titles.
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-I would probably look at some sort of system of weighted rolls. In order for this to work you'd have to identify what are the overall most desirable rolls and what is less so. For a weapon it might be that socket, LS (or LoH), CHD, IAS, primary stat and damage rolls are the most valued. Then you could tweak the loot system so that it had a (just an example number) 50% of rolling each of them before it went on to the lesser desired affixes. That would work out to about 1 in 64 weapon drops dropping with all 6 of the most desirable rolls on it (each still randomly rolled). If that frequency is too high, then lower the weighting but you get the idea. You want to increase the frequency of getting good combinations, yet not exclude some of the more specialized possibilities (stun on hit, etc).


Wish we had a look under the hood behind of what is rolled, becuase early people who have tracked item's rolled had theories that different rolls did appear to roll at unequal frequencies, though I don't think the sample size was large enough to say for sure.

-Make sure that items had a high chance of rolling affixes at the maximum affix level for their item level. By this I mean make it something like a 75% chance that any given affix on an ilevel 63 item is rolled as a level 63 affix property (and not lower). You could further weight this for the next affix level down and so on as well.


Do you mean that the rolled affix would roll its maximum value? or that it would have the highest possible range in which to roll? If it is the latter, that is what the system was like at launch...where the ilvl of all affixes was tired to item ilvl and not the lvl of the monster that dropped it.

-I would look at the ranges for a given affix and make sure they were reasonably sized. For instance, instead of allowing an int roll to range from 30-100, make it more consistent like 75-100.


Blizzard already stated they were indeed doing or wanted to do just this thing...I'm having trouble finding the source right now...it might've been an interview rather than a blue post. I'll keep looking...but they even used almost those exact same numbers.

So instead of offering alternative means to get the top gear outside of third party trading...your solution is to lower the incentive to do so by making the potential gains in stats smaller (more items closer to max %) for the same given risk of using those services. Thanks for taking the time to respond!
Edited by BDF#1838 on 10/31/2013 6:54 PM PDT
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You guys do realize that botters are the source for pretty much all the "dilemmas" we have today, right?

If we went with your "forced amazingly rolled legendary" in the current state of affairs, botters would roll them far faster than everyone else, put them on the AH, and the rest of us would buy them.

The AH doesn't create or destroy wealth (barring transaction fees). It's just a trading medium.

It doesn't matter where you fix the average. No matter what, botters are going to find better items and amass far greater amounts of gold than any player.

You can make the loot system similar to what the console versions seem to be like (I haven't played it) and make it easy to self-find very strong gear in a short period of time.

But even then, botters will find better gear, and if you're interested in being at the very top, you will inevitably have to rely on them for either gold or items, if not both. (Almost all of us do currently, even if its in an indirect fashion


Silver not trolling or anything I want you to Count all the actual "Upgrades" this game has dropped for you. Something that when it dropped Would replace a current slot. I would argue that after level 7 you may have found 1-2 items... The current itemization has no virtual way to improve gear through playing the game. Call it because blizzard wanted to fight botting or what not, fact is there is a serious lack of loot compared to previous titles.

It depends on the style in which I played the character. I've played everything besides DH and barb purely self found up to inferno diablo in some iteration of the game, and in those cases, I did find upgrades through drops, naturally. Once you touch the AH, it's an entirely different ballgame, because you're not just competing against the playerbase (if that were all it were, it'd be okay, because people like pichapie would naturally find better gear than everyone else and amass more wealth as well), but you're competing against the legion of botters.

Do you see the paradox in your argument? You assert that my drops are crap. Yeah, they are. I'm sure yours are too. All of us barely ever get a drop worth anything, let alone an upgrade. Yet everyone is geared to the teeth. If every player out there gets nothing but crappy drops, where's all the good gear coming from? And no, it's not some "blizzard is generating gg items and putting them on rmah" tin-foil hat conspiracy.

It's simply that botters outnumber players by such a vast amount that most of us typically carry around 10x as much gold as we've actually picked up, and items far better than we've ever picked up.

As far as usable gear that I've found, lots of it. Just yesterday I found a tal's chest that actually upgrades my current one in every way, even on the armor roll, except that it's 8% IAS. My monk's mempo, chest and pants are all drops. Borderline worthless on AH, but definitely usable even in high MP's. Lots of usable vile wards, several AR witching hours, there's no such thing as an unusable mempo, so plenty of those as well and so on.

Itemization is obviously a huge problem in this game, there's no doubt about it, but fixing it isn't going to make the problem of there being better gear out there than you'll ever find easily available. Neither is removing the auction house. The only recourse blizzard has is to shrink the gap between "good" gear and gg gear, that and obscuring just how not-gg your gear is, as they do with crafting currently.
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The only recourse blizzard has is to shrink the gap between "good" gear and gg gear, that and obscuring just how not-gg your gear is, as they do with crafting currently.


Or just limit trading to crafting materials. There are many possible approaches here.
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I'm gonna jump in this thread because I know you guys are all buying low and selling high. Well, I'm imploring you to buy low and sell low...to me...because I dunno. It's good karma or some crap.

I need a zuni chest with 170+int, 230+vit, 700+armor (would want a little more armor if AR roll is low). Anyone got something like that laying around collecting dust? Can we do this for a few hundred mil or am I dreaming?
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Chests like that occasionally show up for under 200m, takes camping though.
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Yeah there's a perfect one on AH right now but it still has like 33 hrs left and no b/o so it'll get 0 bid most likely. Damn cheaters.
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10/31/2013 04:12 PMPosted by silverfire
The only recourse blizzard has is to shrink the gap between "good" gear and gg gear, that and obscuring just how not-gg your gear is, as they do with crafting currently.


That's exactly where I was going with my response to BDF's request for suggestions on ways to improve the matter.

Do you mean that the rolled affix would roll its maximum value? or that it would have the highest possible range in which to roll? If it is the latter, that is what the system was like at launch...where the ilvl of all affixes was tired to item ilvl and not the lvl of the monster that dropped it.


I misspoke if I said affix based on iLvl. I meant monster/drop level since that's what it's now based on.

And no, I did no mean that they roll as max possible. I meant that they should roll more often at the max range possible for their monster/drop level. Not 100% of the time, but consistently enough that there are fewer nominal/garbage rolls.

So instead of offering alternative means to get the top gear outside of third party trading...is to lower the incentive to do so by making the potential gains in stats smaller (more items closer to max %) for the same given risk of using those services. Thanks for taking the time to respond!


Correct, sort of. I'm not sure if I should take your comment as snarky or not.

If you decrease the gap between the best gear and what drops on average, you remove the need for the casual or self-found players to use the AH to remain competent and/or competitive. Just shuttering the auctions houses will do nothing to combat the problem of trading being the best/only route, it will just force it into the shady 3rd party netherworld. If you fix the current "GGness" imbalance you lessen the impact of the AH and limit it to those who really want the last 10/20/30/whatever % of "GGness". The players that want to amass the most GG sets are going to trade anyways but shutting down the AHs just punishes some of the most die-hard and dedicated fans of the game. If you balance loot right, there should be a median where the AH can co-exist with the drop-based aspect of the game.

I don't think there is a single, easy answer to finding that balance or that it is a simple matter. Just shutting down the AH is like pretending the problem is gone. I'd rather see the problem actually fixed. There are some rumblings of change that sound like they could be on the right track but the announcement of the shutdown also sounds like hedging their bets in case they don't or can't get it right. That's not good for anyone.

-dolynick
Edited by dolynick#1290 on 10/31/2013 6:15 PM PDT
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Wasn't trying to be snarky or sarcastic at all.

We agree that the super high end people will use third party sites regardless and that it currently is and will be the only route at that level with or without the AH.

Where we disagree is what role the AH actually played in accelerating the gear creep upwards by giving nearly unfettered access to the casual playerbase by botters within the game....people who likely would not have interacted with third party sites.

In addition it made the even distribution of the 'average' or 'best' gear among the whole playerbase near instant compared to the rate at which it would've spread from the lucky few who got drops to those who could immediately trade with them.

1. narrowing the gap between GG and 'good' will help.
2. Providing a mechanism to remove GG or 'good' items from the market will help increase longevity of the item hunt (BoA).
3. Broadening the range of possible desirable stat combinations through legendaries and the mystic.

Three approaches Blizz is trying to implement with upcoming loot changes that I would agree with, and hope work out. But I do agree with their decision to remove the AH as I think it prematurely accelerates the entire community to a point where they can't find their own upgrades...it works too well and hurts the game's longevity.
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-I would look at the ranges for a given affix and make sure they were reasonably sized. For instance, instead of allowing an int roll to range from 30-100, make it more consistent like 75-100.

Blizzard already stated they were indeed doing or wanted to do just this thing...I'm having trouble finding the source right now...it might've been an interview rather than a blue post. I'll keep looking...but they even used almost those exact same numbers.


Found it:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/10388638968?page=3#52
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