Diablo® III

Farming DE's...mp9 or mp10?



nope.
Yes. Look at the chart, mp0 is 15%, mp1 is 16.5%. 16.5 is 10% higher than 15. The trend continues.


I stand corrected.
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What?

For CM wizards, the max DE/hour is the lowest MP at which you don't run out of arcane power while teleporting around VoA seeking elites.

The more dps you have, the higher the MP you're forced to run at to ensure that the mobs live through the duration of the twisters you drop while teleporting around (so as to get the max number of crits per twister you drop.)

The table clearly shows that the maximum of DE_drop_rate/monster_health occurs at MP0.

This would be true except that there's a lot of overhead in finding elites in reality.
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This would be true except that there's a lot of overhead in finding elites in reality.


So? Assuming you move around at a fixed speed, you should farm MP0; that will mathematically be slightly better than any higher MP.
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If you compare MP0 to for example MP7, you'd need to be able to complete almost ~1.9487x MP0 games in the same time it takes you to complete the MP7 one once. You will not be able to do it if your dps is high enough dps wise for MP7.

The double game creation and exit process is already a timedrain. The excess dps in MP0 is another. That dps is better spent somewhere where the mobs are not getting oneshotted.
You will also have to wait twice as long to see if the pack or goblin drops a DE on the ground.

You would also have to increase your movement speed to make it worth it to run through it twice, but you can't.

Other issues regarding resource generation and movement speed were brought up here as well. These things require the right MP level to work well and are not solely Wizard issues.
Edited by dominatus#2534 on 11/2/2013 3:40 AM PDT
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11/01/2013 07:14 PMPosted by mou
The table clearly shows that the maximum of DE_drop_rate/monster_health occurs at MP0.


not if you 1-shot everything on MP1...or MP2
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11/01/2013 09:07 PMPosted by silverfire
The table clearly shows that the maximum of DE_drop_rate/monster_health occurs at MP0.

11/01/2013 10:13 PMPosted by mou
So? Assuming you move around at a fixed speed, you should farm MP0; that will mathematically be slightly better than any higher MP.

This only applies if 100% of your time is spent in combat with an elite pack. It's all related to Amdahl's law. For example, if 10% of your play time is spent fighting elite packs, the other 90% is spent finding and traveling to them. If the elites have 40% more health, the fighting part will be increased by 40% while the traveling remains the same, overall time is now 104%. The DE drop rate increases by 10%, so you get 110% DE in 104% time.
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Please delete -- post was erroneous.
Edited by mou#1752 on 11/2/2013 10:49 PM PDT
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Here's an updated table that factors in % time used for travel between elite packs. I've searched for the transition points.

Travel time fraction .... Optimal MP (a, b means both are equal)
< 0.8 ... 0
0.8 ..... 0, 1
0.857 ... 1, 2
0.887 ... 2, 3
0.907 ... 3, 4
0.932 ... 4, 5
0.951 ... 5, 6
0.964 ... 6, 7
0.974 ... 7, 8
0.981 ... 8, 9
0.9866 .. 9, 10

I don't know how you came up with this table. Travel time fraction depends on what MP you are playing in the first place. This might be correct if the fraction you are talking about is just the travel time fraction at MP0. No one who could potentially play high MPs is going to find that fraction at MP0, they will see how they do on MP9 for example, and then see if they should move up down.

Solve the equation:

F*(monsterHP(x+1)/monsterHP(x)) + (1-F) <= 1.1

where F is the fraction of time spent fighting and monsterHP(x) is their hp at MPX.

You get about 1/4 on all MPs except 1 to 3 which are about 1/5.

For optimal DE rate, you should play the highest possible MP where less than 1/4 of your time is spent fighting.
Edited by MindsMirror#1316 on 11/3/2013 9:19 AM PST
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Yes, ignore that table, apologies again. I'll show my work this time.

DEs/time = DE_probability / (a + monster_hps/b)

a = travel time, b = dps (so monster_hps/b is the time to kill.)

That function always has a maximum at MP10 regardless of the values of a and b!

Yes, regardless of your dps, you'll always get the most DEs at the highest MP you don't spend a lot of time dying at. (Again, that conclusion assumes that your travel time is more or less independent of MP -- true for wormhole CM wizards, I don't know about other classes.)

(I'm aware that's the exact opposite of what I said earlier, but I had incorrect math before.)

(Your equation has the solution F <= 0.1 / hp%. I'm not seeing how you get F=0.25 there.)
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Sorry, I used percentages on one side and fractions on the other, I edited my post to correct it.

a = travel time, b = dps (so monster_hps/b is the time to kill.)

That function always has a maximum at MP10 regardless of the values of a and b!

No it doesn't. a and b are constant, but monster_hps is a function of MP. Perhaps you should think about your results, and decide whether your conclusion actually makes sense. Clearly someone with only 50k dps is going to be more efficient in MP9 than MP10, even if they survive easily in both. You don't need an equation to tell you that. If your equations don't agree with common sense, they are probably wrong or incomplete.
Edited by MindsMirror#1316 on 11/3/2013 9:28 AM PST
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The equation, written with more clarity, is

DE_per_time = DE_rate / (travel_time + monster_hits(MP)/dps)

There is no disputing that is correct. There is also no disputing that, for many values of travel_time and dps, DE_per_time is at a maximum at MP10.

For the many values of travel_time and dps I plugged in, the max of DE_per_time occurred at MP10. I then concluded rashly that was true for all values -- my mistake.

When I get a chance, I'll see if I can put in some measured values for the travel_time and dps and see where I, for example, stand.

Back to MindsMirror: I see you're saying

F (hp(x+1)/hp(x)) + 1-F <= de_chance(x+1)/de(x+1)

hp(x+1)/hp(x) is 1.5, 1.5, 1.45, 1.4, ... so sure enough F works out to be <= 1/5 for mp1-mp3 and <= 1/4 thereafter.

I'm not sure how you derived the inequality yet, though.
Edited by mou#1752 on 11/3/2013 2:43 PM PST
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Holy crap fellas. You really went off the deep end here. It's all good and I appreciate the effort...but at some point do you think any one of you can break it down so I can understand it without having to call my 12th grade math teacher and/or consulting an abacus?
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Hi Melkor,
Theory crafting is very useful. It often reveals new insights and ideas and can help direct towards optimal play.
But everyone has different gear, play style, lag etc. And there is so much that we know about the game that isn't covered by theory.
Best way is to time different MP levels. If MPx+1 takes less than 10% longer than MPx then run MPx+1.
I have a lot of experience farming DEs with my Monk. MP8 I can get 50 per hour if I do nothing but get essences. I don't do that because it is boring so I pick up most rares, bell any packs and enjoy reviewing my loot, usually run MP7 because it's less effort, resulting in more like 30 per hour but much more fun.
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Back to MindsMirror: I see you're saying

F (hp(x+1)/hp(x)) + 1-F <= de_chance(x+1)/de(x+1)

hp(x+1)/hp(x) is 1.5, 1.5, 1.45, 1.4, ... so sure enough F works out to be <= 1/5 for mp1-mp3 and <= 1/4 thereafter.

I'm not sure how you derived the inequality yet, though.

F is the fraction spent fighting, so 1-F is the fraction spent traveling. The time spent fighting depends on the monsters health, while time spent traveling does not, and is roughly the same in MPX as in MPX+1.
The left side is the increased time per run on MPX+1, and the right side is increased amount of DE per run on that MP. If the fraction of increased time is less than the fraction of increased DE, then efficiency is improved.

Holy crap fellas. You really went off the deep end here. It's all good and I appreciate the effort...but at some point do you think any one of you can break it down so I can understand it without having to call my 12th grade math teacher and/or consulting an abacus?

You just need to understand the conclusion. What I am saying is that the most efficient MP for DE gathering is the highest MP you can play where you spend not more than 1/4 of play time killing elites.
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mp9? whats that?
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Mindsmirror,

How do you propose I ascertain if I'm within this 1/4 time thing. Start and stop a stopwatch laying aside another stopwatch that doesn't stop? Should I get my buddy to come over to help me?

Don't mistake my sarcasm as disbelief. I'm sure your work is mathematically sound. I'm not so sure how I'm supposed to work that 1/4 math out though...
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For efficiency you don't want to run MP 10, you are at about the same dps as me and MP 9 is definitely more efficient for me, less fun though :)

If you look at this thread here: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8568378716 you'll notice that there are no-one at the top of the leader boards for solo farming that have gotten there by doing MP 10. Even Det0x who is arguably one of the best geared barbs in the world got his record doing MP 9. Maybe Boozor running his GC setup could be more efficient on MP 10, maybe.

If you want to figure out what MP you are most efficient on in a relatively easy manner have a stop watch and just time your runs and then check how many elites you killed during that run. Get a couple of samples and then check how many elites you kill per hour on average and then use the table in the thread I linked above to get your theoretical DE/hour.

SNS is a bit different from other builds though, since what makes us fast is constant wormhole-ing around and if you are going too low on the MPs you might find yourself killing trash too fast when putting twisters on them to reliably proc your CD on teleport. I think MP 8 or MP 9 should suit you pretty well from a DE/hour standpoint.
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Thanks mental
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I think you should just keep that number in mind. If you feel like you are spending half your time fighting, you should probably go down an MP. If you are slightly off either side of 1/4 you will still be farming with good efficiency. You could record a run and see the times without using two stopwatches, or you could use the lap function of a stop watch to record the time you start and stop each fight. I'm not saying this is the best way to determine the right MP. You could just time a run and count your elite kills and compare that to another MP. I really just threw that formula and number out there to correct what some other people had said in this thread (that either MP0 or MP10 are the most efficient).
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I just did an analysis of my optimized to the max with MP level, build and VotA tactics of 50.57 DE score on TR Monk on MP7 as seen here: http://youtu.be/PjrrgyWcrjs

36.3% of the entire duration (~1hour) was spent fighting where the total run time was from the first game loading screen to when the last DE source died.

The average time spent fighting each of the total 173 packs+goblins was 7.53 seconds. I actually didn't start the time from when I first touched something while TRing through to for example check the back first, instead I took a more accurate time of the actual fight.

Loot consisted mostly of DEs.

MP7 is with 100% certainty the best level for my TR Monk. It's likely that any other future VotA runs would also be around that 36% range if I were to time any.
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