Hahaha, well I looked at your video. I liked it overall, but I would respectfully disagree with your performance being "decent" on singles. That actually looked painfully slow. :lol Hahaha, that's exactly why I like having a secondary AP generator over say Teleport, so that I don't ever miss a beat. :)11/03/2013 01:28 AMPosted by GeladorEven VS single targets, I am doing really decent with molten impact. : )
You don't need the mitigation if you're running Wicked Wind. :p Keep in mind I'm not playing with 1.75aps, but rather 2.54aps, so Wicked Wind is an extremely potent source of AP and LoH. If I were to drop Shocking Aspect for anything, it'd be Blood Magic which has similar DPS to Shocking Aspect (when I'm spamming Meteors). But Shocking Aspect is the better choice, so long as I retain Wicked Wind in my skill setup.Gelador:I'd like to see a video of yours then, since I'd never ever drop teleport so far (given its usefulness when dealing with nasty affixes). If I were u, I'd drop SA for teleport since u get no mit from this armor.
I'd be happy to, but it's basically playing a 200k DPS SNS that isn't using Teleport (but instead with Liquefy). Wicked Wind on singles, even RD as you well know, is trivially easy at 200kDPS. And on singles, alternating between Wicked Wind (or Living Lightning) with Meteors can really help sustain a Meteor spam. This is the "classic" tried-and-true approach for Meteor spamming. My view is that I'd rather dip down a bit on my DPS multiplier by relying on Wicked Wind for singles than brute force Meteor, which would have an even lower DPS multiplier than Wicked Wind.Gelador:Plus I'd like to see how u deal with RD packs with 821 LoH only, especially without the energy armor buff nor safe passage for extra mit ... My bet is that u must be slowing down the pace a lot too not to die ! ; )
and it's "pure" meteor not a close SNS cousin ... ; )Ah, such notions seem very artificial to me. See I'm very wary of all this talk about "pure" or "true" meteor wiz talk from both Emperor and you in this thread. And I'm not harping on your guys specifically, but rather concerned that it's short-sighted to even go down that road of thinking. And I've heard this talk before from other meteor wizards, so it's not just you guys. :lol
"True meteor" builds to me means meteor is all you got as an attack other than buffs or armors. Whatever Meteor rune, Magic Weapon, Sparkflint, Pinpoint Barrier, maybe Diamond Skin for survivability and something possibly LL as a secondary generator just in case.Right, I consider Raining Meteor an example of a true meteor build without the trademark spamming spells (e.g. Frost Nova, Explosive Blast, etc).
SNS has 4 core skills plus an armor (WW/EB/FN/DS/armor) with a spare skill slot... I use Meteor in place. If I change Meteor to teleport, I'm not a teleport wizard. If I change it to Blizzard, I'm not a Blizzard wizard.. I'm still essentially SNS with Meteor/Teleport/Blizzard/whatever as support. That's how I see it anyway.
Well, son... at least it was a very handsome and attractive pig. :p11/04/2013 05:57 AMPosted by FL0Maxxsaying goes, if you put "lipstick on the pig, it's still a pig."
That's not wot 'ol grandpa' utses to say... he seds, "jus' use ur imagination son!"...
... and I did... shucks...
Glad you're liking Liquefy, but I definitely think Molten Impact and Meteor Shower are pretty awesome too. My inclination for Liquefy stems from a desire to maximize procs for maximal survivability and DPS on elite packs, than chasing the highest farming DPS.11/03/2013 12:36 PMPosted by GeladorThis being said, I have finally come back to liquefy after toying around with the very powerfull MI rune.
P.S. Noone commented the video, I take u did not watch it or like it ! :p
11/03/2013 06:48 AMPosted by TekkZerothat's exactly why I like having a secondary AP generator
11/03/2013 01:39 PMPosted by TekkZeroAs the saying goes, if you put "lipstick on the pig, it's still a pig."
Many meteor wizard aren't prepared for the slow-down in performance when targets start becoming sparser. And I agree Living Lightning isn't that much better than a dry wand attack for single targets (albeit better on 2+ targets). To be honest, I actually don't use LL that much anymore for this very reason. I dramatically prefer WW over LL. And I also personally prefer other spells like Shock Pulse (Fire Bolts) and Arcane Torrent (Disruption) to Living Lightning. If I'm impaired at casting my Meteors when targets are sparse, an ideal skill is one that provides instantaneous DPS, and provides decent procs to fuel the next Meteor cast. Living Lightning is great at the procs, but poor on damage. This is where Wicked Wind is king-of-the-hill, since there is almost no slow-down on singles. But other skills, like Fire Bolts, aren't all that bad either.dolynick:"Painfully slow"? Maybe a bit. I haven't seen many meteor builds that aren't considerably slower against a single hard target like that. A WW hybrid could shift to a more straight SNS style of play there and do well, no doubt. That's not really using Meteor anymore though either. In his particular build, WW would be the weakest choice and LL would be a slightly stronger choice than what he's currently doing but not drastically.
See, but I don't see it really as "hard." :lol Maybe it's because I've been pushing Meteor's spammability for longer than you've been playing, and much longer than most Meteor wizards (with the possible exception of maybe Harrowing). So I'm probably way too cynical now to see it that way. In fact, I just see it as meteor wizards trying to squeeze in one extra spell slot, and accept a more dubious 1-2 target spam. And indeed the 1-2 target spammability of Meteor is always ever a questionable proposition. And not because it's impossible, but rather that it's impractical. It's like chasing LoH versus Life Steal. LoH is not the most efficient source of sustain in Meteor builds, even though you can make LoH work. And, as consummate LoH user, I don't think I should receive special recognition for doing something "hard," or arguably masochistic. :loldolynick:I get where you are coming from there. I think the point of the term is that they are focusing as much on Meteor as possible from a casting spam perspective and (ideally) doing things to help achieve that. The term "true" and "pure" aren't good ones but it's a lack of a better way of saying "a meteor build that doesn't rely on another (primary generator) skill to supply it" - even though that's never quite the case. Call it a (poor?) term used to divide between builds that give in to the need for a generator and builds that try to go it without. If nothing else, it's a way to try and get/give a little recognition for going it the "hard" way.
Many meteor wizard aren't prepared for the slow-down in performance when targets start becoming sparser. And I agree Living Lightning isn't that much better than a dry wand attack for single targets (albeit better on 2+ targets). To be honest, I actually don't use LL that much anymore for this very reason. I dramatically prefer WW over LL. And I also personally prefer other spells like Shock Pulse (Fire Bolts) and Arcane Torrent (Disruption) to Living Lightning. If I'm impaired at casting my Meteors when targets are sparse, an ideal skill is one that provides instantaneous DPS, and provides decent procs to fuel the next Meteor cast. Living Lightning is great at the procs, but poor on damage. This is where Wicked Wind is king-of-the-hill, since there is almost no slow-down on singles. But other skills, like Fire Bolts, aren't all that bad either.
Right, but the very tone of how it's being thrown around in this thread has reeked, at least to me, of superiority for the "true," "pure", and "hard" approach. I personally don't view either build as intrinsically superior, since each build is trying to overcome a short-coming of Meteor. It's the same way I view "non-permafreeze" and "non-CM," which are often touted by their users as somehow having a superior approach. :pdolynick:There is a fairly fundamental difference between the two approaches.
1) They hybrid build with a generator attempts to minimize the shortcomings of meteor spam at the cost of an extra skill.
2) The non-hybrid build with just meteor spam attempts to maximize the effectiveness of meteors without diluting the skill selection with a generator.
There is validity in both methods. I'm not suggesting that one is better than the other; just that the "pure" term (if poorly chosen) does have a place in distinguishing between the two. We could come up with any phrase for it we like but it does have a purpose.
First off, I really like Gelador, and I apologize to him if he's taken offense. However, if I sounded harsher, it's actually because I was. Gelador said that he had "decent" performance against singles, which I said I "respectfully disagree[d]" with his performance being "decent" on singles. If he said it was "rough, but doable," we wouldn't be having this conversation at all.dolynick:I was addressing the uncharacteristic and somewhat harsh evaluation you gave him on his single target performance on the video. It's obviously going to be his Achilles heel but given his current gear selection, I fail to see how any other skill would be a marked improvement in that situation. At his APS, WW would be a poor choice and offer no advantages.
Woh so many more posts here, I do not have time to answer u but I will whenever I have enough time. This looks really interesting from fast looking at and I changed again to try Tekk's way (yeah, yeah it's a shame I am already leaving the "pure" meteor camp, but I wanted to try again this variation) with replacing EB by WW to see how it goes when facing low AP generation VS singles ... ; )I hope there's no pressure from me for you to try anything. I just consider it a trade-off in performance. Poorer performance on singles doesn't make a build non-functional. The easiest method for a non-hybrid Meteor build to farm efficiently is just to skip rare pack leaders, or lure them to another mob. That's not terribly much different to what I do with Liquefy in creating "kill zones" where I lure all enemies present into a grand orgie of death and mayhem. :p It's really a question of style. For me, I'd rather have a powerful secondary to deal with elites in an efficient manner, and miss out on another skill (whether it be Teleport or Magic Weapon).
Thanks for contributing and I hope to come here soon to answer.
tekk,I don't think it's necessarily higher survability with Comet. But I think it's a fantastic choice! I've mentioned on more than one occasion that I enjoy all the Meteor runes. The major advantage of Comet, at least to me anyways, is that you don't have to rely as heavy on Frost Nova (or even at all) to maintain the Cold-Blooded bonus, as well as having an intrinsic snare to keep enemies where they should be... under your DoT. :lol That can mean a huge increase in DPS output, since 20-30% (and often even more) of our actions get used by Frost Nova. Gcanum has been a big proponent of using Comet in his non-Frost Nova Comet build (using Wicked Wind over Frost Nova).
what do you think of comet instead of liquefy. the fact that comet slows down everything seems really good. and it seems to proc LOH and works well with MF/blood. My health seems to fill back up. I have been using Astral for faster ap fill and more ap pool.
increases higher survivability with comet. your thought?
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