Diablo® III

Another meteor topic ...

Well given the use of energy armor (PB rune) I lose 20 Ap so I need to make it back using AP, yeah ... : )
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11/03/2013 01:28 AMPosted by Gelador
Even VS single targets, I am doing really decent with molten impact. : )
Hahaha, well I looked at your video. I liked it overall, but I would respectfully disagree with your performance being "decent" on singles. That actually looked painfully slow. :lol Hahaha, that's exactly why I like having a secondary AP generator over say Teleport, so that I don't ever miss a beat. :)
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That's interesting.
I'd like to see a video of yours then, since I'd never ever drop teleport so far (given its usefulness when dealing with nasty affixes). If I were u, I'd drop SA for teleport since u get no mit from this armor.
Plus I'd like to see how u deal with RD packs with 821 LoH only, especially without the energy armor buff nor safe passage for extra mit ... My bet is that u must be slowing down the pace a lot too not to die ! ; )

P.S. I use Open broadcaster to record, very easy and efficient.
Edited by Gelador#2933 on 11/3/2013 7:11 AM PST
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Gelador:
I'd like to see a video of yours then, since I'd never ever drop teleport so far (given its usefulness when dealing with nasty affixes). If I were u, I'd drop SA for teleport since u get no mit from this armor.
You don't need the mitigation if you're running Wicked Wind. :p Keep in mind I'm not playing with 1.75aps, but rather 2.54aps, so Wicked Wind is an extremely potent source of AP and LoH. If I were to drop Shocking Aspect for anything, it'd be Blood Magic which has similar DPS to Shocking Aspect (when I'm spamming Meteors). But Shocking Aspect is the better choice, so long as I retain Wicked Wind in my skill setup.

Gelador:
Plus I'd like to see how u deal with RD packs with 821 LoH only, especially without the energy armor buff nor safe passage for extra mit ... My bet is that u must be slowing down the pace a lot too not to die ! ; )
I'd be happy to, but it's basically playing a 200k DPS SNS that isn't using Teleport (but instead with Liquefy). Wicked Wind on singles, even RD as you well know, is trivially easy at 200kDPS. And on singles, alternating between Wicked Wind (or Living Lightning) with Meteors can really help sustain a Meteor spam. This is the "classic" tried-and-true approach for Meteor spamming. My view is that I'd rather dip down a bit on my DPS multiplier by relying on Wicked Wind for singles than brute force Meteor, which would have an even lower DPS multiplier than Wicked Wind.

That said, I do have a video of face-tanking RD Rare pack with pretty much soley a Liquefy spam (1200LoH). But the key point is that skills like Wicked Wind and Living Lightning provide so much better life+AP returns. I'd use Teleport in place of Wicked Wind for speed farming, but often the groups I run with it's almost never mandatory. Also, I don't use all the gear I currently have on my P100 wizard. That's my standard 20APoC SNS setup, where I just happened to include Meteor Shower for melting mobs. Usually I swap my Mempo out for Storm Crow for 30APoC.
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 11/3/2013 12:14 PM PST
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Well I heard what u said but the fact is that playing solo or group is really not the same (far easier in groups). I have been "working" a lot in trying to craft a pure solo build /gear because it's much more difficult ... : ) I understand dying in groups is not as annoying as solo death since u can simply port to town and flag a mate ... :p
But, still, I don't like to be trapped by nasty affixes like jailer or frozen because most of the time it means death so I gladly sacrifice WW (which enables the choice of pure a pure SNS play of course, very handy when facing RD packs) for teleport since I want to die as less as possible ... : )

This being said, I have finally come back to liquefy after toying around with the very powerfull MI rune. My current build / gear should be pretty stable by now (currently seen in my profile) more balanced and versatile ... and it's "pure" meteor not a close SNS cousin ... ; )
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Ah, but I solo with the build too, not just playing multiplayer. High attack speed+LoH+Wicked Wind doesn't mean that jailer or frozen is a death sentence, because you're so tanky and your returns aren't frontloaded like they are with Life Steal. It's a non-trivial difference.

And it also helps if you're a graduate of the Aimless school of mitigation. :lol

and it's "pure" meteor not a close SNS cousin ... ; )
Ah, such notions seem very artificial to me. See I'm very wary of all this talk about "pure" or "true" meteor wiz talk from both Emperor and you in this thread. And I'm not harping on your guys specifically, but rather concerned that it's short-sighted to even go down that road of thinking. And I've heard this talk before from other meteor wizards, so it's not just you guys. :lol

The truth is that these so-called "pure" meteor builds are simply SNS in disguise. As the saying goes, if you put "lipstick on the pig, it's still a pig." The kind of Meteor builds typically being played by most Meteor wizards these days aren't really "pure" or "true" at all. If you're using 75% or more of the SNS skill-sets, you're still it's close cousin (i.e. running Frost Nova+Diamond Skin+Explosive Blast+Critical Mass+Cold-Blooded). I don't think it's particularly productive to make a big distinction. If you simply replaced Liquefy in your current build with Wicked Wind, I'd call your current build a CM/WW wizard. So if someone runs a secondary AP generator, like Wicked Wind or Living Lightning, in place of Teleport and 90% of the time they are spamming Meteors that's pretty darn similar to what someone with just 100% Meteor spamming is doing. Distinguishing between the two styles makes almost no practical sense to me. :lol

Thus, it's a line that I'm very uncomfortable to cross. Things like Raining Meteor or Shaggalicious are closer to truely different builds from SNS than the kind of Meteor builds that essentially just replace Wicked Wind with Meteor. ;) SNS reduced to its most basic form is really just a build variant of a class of builds that utilize a proc generator (whether it be Energy Twister, Meteor, Shock Pulse, etc), in conjuction with Critical Mass, to reduce the cooldowns of powerful spells (like Frost Nova, Diamond Skin, Explosive Blast, Teleport, etc).
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 11/3/2013 1:50 PM PST
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"True meteor" builds to me means meteor is all you got as an attack other than buffs or armors. Whatever Meteor rune, Magic Weapon, Sparkflint, Pinpoint Barrier, maybe Diamond Skin for survivability and something possibly LL as a secondary generator just in case.

SNS has 4 core skills plus an armor (WW/EB/FN/DS/armor) with a spare skill slot... I use Meteor in place. If I change Meteor to teleport, I'm not a teleport wizard. If I change it to Blizzard, I'm not a Blizzard wizard.. I'm still essentially SNS with Meteor/Teleport/Blizzard/whatever as support. That's how I see it anyway.
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"True meteor" builds to me means meteor is all you got as an attack other than buffs or armors. Whatever Meteor rune, Magic Weapon, Sparkflint, Pinpoint Barrier, maybe Diamond Skin for survivability and something possibly LL as a secondary generator just in case.

SNS has 4 core skills plus an armor (WW/EB/FN/DS/armor) with a spare skill slot... I use Meteor in place. If I change Meteor to teleport, I'm not a teleport wizard. If I change it to Blizzard, I'm not a Blizzard wizard.. I'm still essentially SNS with Meteor/Teleport/Blizzard/whatever as support. That's how I see it anyway.
Right, I consider Raining Meteor an example of a true meteor build without the trademark spamming spells (e.g. Frost Nova, Explosive Blast, etc).

But I also see a SNS-like build when the basic playstyle of a Meteor build is almost indistinguishable from SNS, because you've essentially just swapped out Wicked Wind with Meteor (any rune). I'm uncomfortabe with claiming any of those variants are "true" or "pure" Meteor builds. It just strikes me as someone playing SNS or CM/WW wizard with a different proc generator. This comes from someone that's watched the SNS and CM/WW build change as people tried different proc generators over the last year and half (e.g. Living Lightning, Spectral Blades, Mistral Breeze, Storm Chaser, and Meteor Shower). All our good proc skills were precisely nerfed because at one-time or another someone tried to make a SNS or CM/WW wizard style build using the skill as the build's proc generator. :lol

So it kinda strikes me as borderline-hubris for us to presume Meteor is any different than the previous variants of the CM/WW wizard. Back in 1.0.4, the very build that ended up getting Meteor nerfed in 1.0.4 was basically SNS with Meteor Shower subbed-in for Wicked Wind. And this was before Raining Meteor or the Rockanado/Shockquefy SNS variants. Tbh way back when I started championing Liquefy spam (without Wicked Wind), I was motivated to do it precisely because I was seeking a backup alternative skill to Energy Twister, since I was 100% sure they were going to nerf WW again. I love Meteor as a skill and I'll use the skill no matter what Blizzard does now to CM or Frost Nova, but when I got started, I definitely had ulterior motives. ;)
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 11/4/2013 12:35 AM PST
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11/03/2013 01:39 PMPosted by TekkZero
saying goes, if you put "lipstick on the pig, it's still a pig."


That's not wot 'ol grandpa' utses to say... he seds, "jus' use ur imagination son!"...
... and I did... shucks...
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11/04/2013 05:57 AMPosted by FL0Maxx
saying goes, if you put "lipstick on the pig, it's still a pig."


That's not wot 'ol grandpa' utses to say... he seds, "jus' use ur imagination son!"...
... and I did... shucks...
Well, son... at least it was a very handsome and attractive pig. :p
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11/03/2013 12:36 PMPosted by Gelador
This being said, I have finally come back to liquefy after toying around with the very powerfull MI rune.
Glad you're liking Liquefy, but I definitely think Molten Impact and Meteor Shower are pretty awesome too. My inclination for Liquefy stems from a desire to maximize procs for maximal survivability and DPS on elite packs, than chasing the highest farming DPS.

As I don't want anyone to think I frown on no-secondary AP builds, it's quite to the contrary. :) It's nice to be able to include Teleport or Blood Magic, or even have the option to go full DPS-mode with Venom/Electrify. I haven't sat down and done the math, but I strongly suspect we get an even greater DPS benefit than SNS running Venom/Electrify, since Meteor (Impact only), plus EB+Shards, trigger the spells. In contrast, SNS can't rely on Shocking Aspect and Wicked Wind (two major bulks of the build's DPS), as only Shards+EB trigger the spells.
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P.S. Noone commented the video, I take u did not watch it or like it ! :p


Good job in and on the video. Honestly, it felt familiar - Reminiscent of watching mysefl play. You ran into a little adversity there but you dealt with it pretty well and it looked like you did it pretty much right when it got a little bumpy.

11/03/2013 06:48 AMPosted by TekkZero
that's exactly why I like having a secondary AP generator


He did have a secondary generator Tekk. It was the wand attack. 100% damage, 100% proc rate and near instant result. Not that far behind LL against a single target and he made sure to use it quite well when he needed it (I was watching for it).

"Painfully slow"? Maybe a bit. I haven't seen many meteor builds that aren't considerably slower against a single hard target like that. A WW hybrid could shift to a more straight SNS style of play there and do well, no doubt. That's not really using Meteor anymore though either. In his particular build, WW would be the weakest choice and LL would be a slightly stronger choice than what he's currently doing but not drastically.

11/03/2013 01:39 PMPosted by TekkZero
As the saying goes, if you put "lipstick on the pig, it's still a pig."


I get where you are coming from there. I think the point of the term is that they are focusing as much on Meteor as possible from a casting spam perspective and (ideally) doing things to help achieve that. The term "true" and "pure" aren't good ones but it's a lack of a better way of saying "a meteor build that doesn't rely on another (primary generator) skill to supply it" - even though that's never quite the case. Call it a (poor?) term used to divide between builds that give in to the need for a generator and builds that try to go it without. If nothing else, it's a way to try and get/give a little recognition for going it the "hard" way.

-dolynick
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dolynick:
"Painfully slow"? Maybe a bit. I haven't seen many meteor builds that aren't considerably slower against a single hard target like that. A WW hybrid could shift to a more straight SNS style of play there and do well, no doubt. That's not really using Meteor anymore though either. In his particular build, WW would be the weakest choice and LL would be a slightly stronger choice than what he's currently doing but not drastically.
Many meteor wizard aren't prepared for the slow-down in performance when targets start becoming sparser. And I agree Living Lightning isn't that much better than a dry wand attack for single targets (albeit better on 2+ targets). To be honest, I actually don't use LL that much anymore for this very reason. I dramatically prefer WW over LL. And I also personally prefer other spells like Shock Pulse (Fire Bolts) and Arcane Torrent (Disruption) to Living Lightning. If I'm impaired at casting my Meteors when targets are sparse, an ideal skill is one that provides instantaneous DPS, and provides decent procs to fuel the next Meteor cast. Living Lightning is great at the procs, but poor on damage. This is where Wicked Wind is king-of-the-hill, since there is almost no slow-down on singles. But other skills, like Fire Bolts, aren't all that bad either.

dolynick:
I get where you are coming from there. I think the point of the term is that they are focusing as much on Meteor as possible from a casting spam perspective and (ideally) doing things to help achieve that. The term "true" and "pure" aren't good ones but it's a lack of a better way of saying "a meteor build that doesn't rely on another (primary generator) skill to supply it" - even though that's never quite the case. Call it a (poor?) term used to divide between builds that give in to the need for a generator and builds that try to go it without. If nothing else, it's a way to try and get/give a little recognition for going it the "hard" way.
See, but I don't see it really as "hard." :lol Maybe it's because I've been pushing Meteor's spammability for longer than you've been playing, and much longer than most Meteor wizards (with the possible exception of maybe Harrowing). So I'm probably way too cynical now to see it that way. In fact, I just see it as meteor wizards trying to squeeze in one extra spell slot, and accept a more dubious 1-2 target spam. And indeed the 1-2 target spammability of Meteor is always ever a questionable proposition. And not because it's impossible, but rather that it's impractical. It's like chasing LoH versus Life Steal. LoH is not the most efficient source of sustain in Meteor builds, even though you can make LoH work. And, as consummate LoH user, I don't think I should receive special recognition for doing something "hard," or arguably masochistic. :lol

To date, no Meteor wizard has ever gotten an efficient single target spamming while maintaining only DPS-heavy skills. And I've seen lots of videos from excellent players. That's why I'm largely neutral to when people post videos of single-target spams on Meteor. Rarely does anything surprise me anymore. I've seen the best of us try (Oxan), and even he had to compromise. Meteor wizards that try to make single-target spamming work are pretty much in the same vein of the rare SNS wizard that wants to just make 10APoC work. This SNS wizard chooses between three options: a.) use +%cc Energy Twister gear (our equivalent to Meteor Reduction), b.) supplement with a more sustainable secondary (or use Prism), or c.) accept a terrible single-target.

Ultimately there are always tradeoffs when gearing around Meteor. No build really deserves more praise, because we can't even get close to optimal. The shortcomings of the "hard" build don't disappear after expending lots of effort. Rather they are just "less worse." And I'm not trying to be negative by saying that, but rather it's the inevitable reality of playing Meteor. The AP cost of Meteor is expensive, and the mathematics of the build just don't lend itself towards being efficient on single-target spam.
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There is a fairly fundamental difference between the two approaches.

1) They hybrid build with a generator attempts to minimize the shortcomings of meteor spam at the cost of an extra skill.

2) The non-hybrid build with just meteor spam attempts to maximize the effectiveness of meteors without diluting the skill selection with a generator.

There is validity in both methods. I'm not suggesting that one is better than the other; just that the "pure" term (if poorly chosen) does have a place in distinguishing between the two. We could come up with any phrase for it we like but it does have a purpose.

Many meteor wizard aren't prepared for the slow-down in performance when targets start becoming sparser. And I agree Living Lightning isn't that much better than a dry wand attack for single targets (albeit better on 2+ targets). To be honest, I actually don't use LL that much anymore for this very reason. I dramatically prefer WW over LL. And I also personally prefer other spells like Shock Pulse (Fire Bolts) and Arcane Torrent (Disruption) to Living Lightning. If I'm impaired at casting my Meteors when targets are sparse, an ideal skill is one that provides instantaneous DPS, and provides decent procs to fuel the next Meteor cast. Living Lightning is great at the procs, but poor on damage. This is where Wicked Wind is king-of-the-hill, since there is almost no slow-down on singles. But other skills, like Fire Bolts, aren't all that bad either.


I was addressing the uncharacteristic and somewhat harsh evaluation you gave him on his single target performance on the video. It's obviously going to be his Achilles heel but given his current gear selection, I fail to see how any other skill would be a marked improvement in that situation. At his APS, WW would be a poor choice and offer no advantages.

-dolynick
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dolynick:
There is a fairly fundamental difference between the two approaches.

1) They hybrid build with a generator attempts to minimize the shortcomings of meteor spam at the cost of an extra skill.

2) The non-hybrid build with just meteor spam attempts to maximize the effectiveness of meteors without diluting the skill selection with a generator.

There is validity in both methods. I'm not suggesting that one is better than the other; just that the "pure" term (if poorly chosen) does have a place in distinguishing between the two. We could come up with any phrase for it we like but it does have a purpose.
Right, but the very tone of how it's being thrown around in this thread has reeked, at least to me, of superiority for the "true," "pure", and "hard" approach. I personally don't view either build as intrinsically superior, since each build is trying to overcome a short-coming of Meteor. It's the same way I view "non-permafreeze" and "non-CM," which are often touted by their users as somehow having a superior approach. :p

And I'm not always for maximizing efficiency myself. You've on more than occassion chided me for using LoH with Meteor builds. But to my knowledge, I've never stated LoH is superior to Life Steal. Rather you'll notice that I consider it a tradeoff, so I settle for less sustain than I could get with Life Steal, because I gain some options elsewhere.

dolynick:
I was addressing the uncharacteristic and somewhat harsh evaluation you gave him on his single target performance on the video. It's obviously going to be his Achilles heel but given his current gear selection, I fail to see how any other skill would be a marked improvement in that situation. At his APS, WW would be a poor choice and offer no advantages.
First off, I really like Gelador, and I apologize to him if he's taken offense. However, if I sounded harsher, it's actually because I was. Gelador said that he had "decent" performance against singles, which I said I "respectfully disagree[d]" with his performance being "decent" on singles. If he said it was "rough, but doable," we wouldn't be having this conversation at all.

There's a reason I'm not often in the pro-Molten Impact crowd, which most of my esteemed meteor colleagues are. I know the choice of using Molten Impact with 30APoC+Prism is not usually enough to sustain an infinite meteor spam on a single. Gelador's video is a perfect example of someone that is using Molten Impact, high cc+APOC, using Prism, and low attack speed and still having problems with spamming Meteor on singles. As you said, this is the Achilles heel of this build type. And even though I viewed the singles as "painfully slow," I'm also well aware a Molten Impact build can shine against farming trash mobs. It's just not an efficient elite killer.

And respectfully we'll have to disagree on Wicked Wind being a poor choice for a slower attack speed wizard. :lol I still view it as our best AP generator. YES, I consider WW that broken awesome. WW generates AP-surpluses at the 1.7aps breakpoint, and 5x more procs than Molten Impact. :p The "magic" part of Wicked Wind is having 30APoC when you're at lower APS. A 30APoC wizard with 1.7aps will generate as much AP as a wizard with 20APoC at 2.51aps. So it's still a decent choice, because you're not wasting an action to a wand attack (which is single target and generates less procs). A wand attack at 30APoC/60%cc would generate 18APoC on average, while Wicked Wind at 1.7aps nets 14.5APoC (and 21APoC with Prism). And that's net AP for Meteor! There's actually 275% more procs over a wand attack to help reduce the cooldowns of FN, DS, and EB.

P.S. And it's not just WW that I'm fond of. I have other skills at slower attack speeds that I like too. :)
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 11/4/2013 3:21 PM PST
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Woh so many more posts here, I do not have time to answer u but I will whenever I have enough time. This looks really interesting from fast looking at and I changed again to try Tekk's way (yeah, yeah it's a shame I am already leaving the "pure" meteor camp, but I wanted to try again this variation) with replacing EB by WW to see how it goes when facing low AP generation VS singles ... ; )

Thanks for contributing and I hope to come here soon to answer.
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Woh so many more posts here, I do not have time to answer u but I will whenever I have enough time. This looks really interesting from fast looking at and I changed again to try Tekk's way (yeah, yeah it's a shame I am already leaving the "pure" meteor camp, but I wanted to try again this variation) with replacing EB by WW to see how it goes when facing low AP generation VS singles ... ; )

Thanks for contributing and I hope to come here soon to answer.
I hope there's no pressure from me for you to try anything. I just consider it a trade-off in performance. Poorer performance on singles doesn't make a build non-functional. The easiest method for a non-hybrid Meteor build to farm efficiently is just to skip rare pack leaders, or lure them to another mob. That's not terribly much different to what I do with Liquefy in creating "kill zones" where I lure all enemies present into a grand orgie of death and mayhem. :p It's really a question of style. For me, I'd rather have a powerful secondary to deal with elites in an efficient manner, and miss out on another skill (whether it be Teleport or Magic Weapon).

And if the thread about percentage of elite kills to total kills (7.74%) is any indication of my preferences, I appear to have a much higher percentage of elite kills than pretty much anyone else in this thread (excepting yodatoy that has 8%). So I guess my heavy emphasis on elites pretty much colors how I approach playing this game. Killing elites with Meteor makes Tekk happy! :lol
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Tekk
My sentiments exactly. The pig with lipstick thing is close enough... I'm not a Meteor wizard, I'm an SNS wizard with Meteor (as my spare skill). Having said that, for a "spare skill", I'm still in the mindset of "must spam as many of these suckers as I can!"

I really only switch to Meteor when I have a couple of WWs going for both LoH sustain and APoC regeneration. Otherwise, I really am SNS first.
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tekk,
what do you think of comet instead of liquefy. the fact that comet slows down everything seems really good. and it seems to proc LOH and works well with MF/blood. My health seems to fill back up. I have been using Astral for faster ap fill and more ap pool.

increases higher survivability with comet. your thought?
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tekk,
what do you think of comet instead of liquefy. the fact that comet slows down everything seems really good. and it seems to proc LOH and works well with MF/blood. My health seems to fill back up. I have been using Astral for faster ap fill and more ap pool.

increases higher survivability with comet. your thought?
I don't think it's necessarily higher survability with Comet. But I think it's a fantastic choice! I've mentioned on more than one occasion that I enjoy all the Meteor runes. The major advantage of Comet, at least to me anyways, is that you don't have to rely as heavy on Frost Nova (or even at all) to maintain the Cold-Blooded bonus, as well as having an intrinsic snare to keep enemies where they should be... under your DoT. :lol That can mean a huge increase in DPS output, since 20-30% (and often even more) of our actions get used by Frost Nova. Gcanum has been a big proponent of using Comet in his non-Frost Nova Comet build (using Wicked Wind over Frost Nova).

I still think Liquefy is the king for procs though, but it requires you to have enemies within your DoT for longer than 3s to see any benefit. Else runes like Comet, Molten Impact, and particularly Meteor Shower are better because all of the benefits are frontloaded. Liquefy behaves more like Wicked Wind in this regard, because there is a significant "wind-up" period to maximal benefit (6s for Wicked Wind and 8s for Liquefy). In contrast, Comet and Molten Impact share the same "wind-up" period, and are both 200% and 267% faster on "wind-up" than Wicked Wind and Liquefy respectively. That's a non-trivial benefit. I consider that to be the selling point of Comet/Molten Impact, which seperates them fundamentally from Wicked Wind/Liquefy. Liquefy has always impressed me as Wicked Wind's "little brother."

P.S. I imagine the reason you like Astral Presence is for the larger AP pool. :) The +2AP per second actually doesn't contribute that much. A lot of beginning Meteor wizards will try to use Energy Armor (Pinpoint Barrier or Prismatic Armor), and end up getting frustrated because they contract their AP pool so much that they miss casts despite having decent cc/APoC. So +Max Arcane Power on wizard gear is a subtle, but often useful stat for smoothing out one's Meteor experience. And this is where Meteor Reduction comes in handy, since it performs double-duty. Not only does Meteor Reduction lower the overall cost of Meteor, but it also shrinks the percentage of AP used by Meteor per cast. Thus, you're also increasing the reliability that you can pay for Meteor, since you're better able to handle "spikes" in the AP drain. :) So if you're liking AP regen, you might explore Meteor Reduction, or even Energy Armor (Energy Tap).
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