Diablo® III

Things Diablo 3 Can Learn From: *Borderlands 2*!

Sorry for not reading your post, I just wanted to say I have played myself alot BL2 on PC. The more you played the more you realized how bad the itemization was, especially with UVHM.

BL2 could have been so much more and so much better, the idea of the game was so cool especially with the bosses.

TBH even with the crap loot in D3 right now its even better than in BL2.

You nearly have no real choices in BL2 with UVHM when it comes to weapons, nearly everything is crap especially purple weapons. Before UVHM you had alot of choices (could even play around with purple weapons), another great example how devs ruining their own game just to make a quick buck with a DLC.
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Wow I am impressed. I saw this and swore it was going to be another essay on how clicking +1 boxes in a skill tree= rpg, and how D3 got it wrong. (even though the only difference between my build now and if i had a skill tree is about...60 clicks in boxes)

But yeah after playing wow long enough, I didnt expect metzen to write a gem of a story. I just wish he didnt turn D3 into an episode of WWE Raw doing so.
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just stop posting to yuujin, he seems to be offended by you not liking the storytelling of diablo 3 and picks at the only flaw he can

its good to see you still come here regularly since beta, even with d3 being my potential dream game, i cant bring myself to put so much time into writing about it as you, but good luck, the game needs your help
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Pretty good stuff and well written. It does capture some of the things that make D3 boring. Is it because Bliz has "lost" the story telling sense?

Hope to see better stuff from Bliz in the future.
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I always like to give characters the 'Mr Plinkett Test' to decide whether they are good or not.


First of all, hell yes! I used to like Star Wars Episode 1... then I watched that review and was ashamed. Great thread overall, the next game you should bring up from a story perspective is Bastion IMO. Truly a less is more experience but was so epic at the end I was teary eyed when I saw the credits and heard that song.

11/04/2013 07:59 AMPosted by Starbird
I can write a good paragraph on Lilith, Maya, Jack, Mordecai, Tiny Tina and a few others in BL2 (okay...maybe not Brick or Roland). I can do it with *maybe* two of the followers in D2. And that is all.


I can help you out with Brick:

A man of few words, simply because he always has one of two things on his mind: doing that which is badass, and cracking skulls. On a good day, he gets to do both. He had few loves in the world, one of which was his dog he had since it was a pup (You saw it in the opening pictures of Borderlands 1 and it was mentioned in a side quest in Borderlands 2). Brick was ruthless to begin with, never much for tact. Jack likes crossing lines, but after Brick's puppy... well Brick crossed them faster, much to the dismay of his companions. Brick is the kind of character that can hang around anything due to his fun attitude. He can hang with vault hunters (I imagine him and Scooter came up with some mad dares for each other) as well as the bandits he led when his friends became unable to cross the lines he ended up having to. Symbolically, the scars on Brick's body represent all the beatings he probably took for his friends, and through that tenacity he grew fond of using his fists over anything else, save that which causes the most badass of explosions of course!

In short, you can summarize Brick's character with probably one of my favorite quotes in videogame history: Lilith: "Wow there are vaults all over the universe!" Brick: "Dibs!" Lilith: "You can't claim an entire universe full of vaults." Brick: "I just did." Singleminded awesomeness. Hell, in a way I think Brick probably represents a little bit of a reflection of the player when you think about it. Few words, always showing off, eager to chase a universe of vaults and dangers (Come on, you know you were excited about a universe full of vaults because it means more BL!). He's me, and he's probably you too.

I love Brick. :')
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This is easily the most cogent, concise, well thought out critique on D3's story line i have ever read. It
highlights exactly where and how the writers simply didn't put forth enough effort. Perhaps they just weren't skilled enough. While I doubt Blizzard could ever "fix" the story / characters, perhaps someone will read this and their next offering will be better for it.

Well thought out and very well written, Starbird.

Cheers.
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I wasn't going to read this, and turn the other cheek. But now that I've read it, I'm glad that I did. You single handed perfectly explained the missteps in storytelling this game has. Not even from a word on paper standpoint, or even the dialogue, it was the way the information was presented. When I first heard my character respond to an npc in a full chain of dialogue, i almost had a heart attack. For one, I was expecting (and hoping for) a silent character, and it really caught me off guard (not in a good way). I was trying to figure out a way to explain why I don't feel as immersed or emotionally engaged in Diablo 3, and you accurately explained all of it. There is no mystery behind any of the antagonists. Cain died in a way that was not meaningful, and the witch that killed him was not well written, nor well presented, nor well fought. Believe it or not, there is nothing memorable about any of the npc's in this game. I remember tons of random things from Diablo 2, the background music in the Act 1 town completely and perfectly setting the mood for the entire game, the way Warriv just walks up to you and says "Good day!" "uhh greetings stranger, It's been awhile since I've seen YOUR kind around here" or "I am Akarah, something something sisterhood of the sightless eye" Or when she gives you your very first quest "There is a place of great evil". You know what, I gotta go play Diablo 2 again for ten minutes, just to get those first moments out of my head, brb.
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11/04/2013 03:53 PMPosted by Socs
Go play Borderlands then?


Haha I seem to have attracted a forum stalker. I think I know who's alt account this is, and I'm sure the mods will get around to it soon enough.

Aha.

Well, not a troll topic. And I'm surprised that *anyone* would praise BL1's storyline :)


I'm not praising it either, BL1 story was scrapped from a lot of his original plot elements for some reason (see older trailers/non shaded gameplay/interviews).

BL2 went with a new writter that pushed far too much the crappy humor and focused the plot around the BL1 heroes, with revamped personalities for the worse, and some antagonist that simply wouldn't !@#$ (<--- keep his mouth shut, thx censorhip) during the whole game.

I could go on and on and on about it, but far better people than me have already explained why BL2 story is terrible... in the BL2 forums, you might go and check there.

Like I said before, BL2 story equals Diablo 3 story, both are terrible beyond epic proportions.


Again, I think we need to agree to disagree. People whined about Baldur's Gate 2's story. This is the internet. The fact that someone complains about something is not grounds for validity.

Most of the reviews I've seen have praised BL2's storyline and characters, even when they took a dump on the rest of the game.

11/04/2013 06:00 PMPosted by Phaerius
As long as you only intend to learn from bl2's story. Story and graphics aside, the game was worse on many levels than borderlands 1. To this day it remains one of the most disappointing game sequels for me, up there with dungeon siege 3.


Eh, it wasn't *awful*. It just made the Hellgate/D3 mistake of trying to make a game that many people enjoyed singleplayer multiplayer.
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Sorry for not reading your post, I just wanted to say I have played myself alot BL2 on PC. The more you played the more you realized how bad the itemization was, especially with UVHM.

BL2 could have been so much more and so much better, the idea of the game was so cool especially with the bosses.

TBH even with the crap loot in D3 right now its even better than in BL2.

You nearly have no real choices in BL2 with UVHM when it comes to weapons, nearly everything is crap especially purple weapons. Before UVHM you had alot of choices (could even play around with purple weapons), another great example how devs ruining their own game just to make a quick buck with a DLC.


Oh yes. I never claimed BL2 was a perfect game (and I actually mentioned in my OP that the DLC content was *awful*). This is a thread focussed on the story and how many of the aspects I loved about BL2's story illuminate what is wrong with D3's.

I can help you out with Brick:

A man of few words, simply because he always has one of two things on his mind: doing that which is badass, and cracking skulls. On a good day, he gets to do both. He had few loves in the world, one of which was his dog he had since it was a pup (You saw it in the opening pictures of Borderlands 1 and it was mentioned in a side quest in Borderlands 2). Brick was ruthless to begin with, never much for tact. Jack likes crossing lines, but after Brick's puppy... well Brick crossed them faster, much to the dismay of his companions. Brick is the kind of character that can hang around anything due to his fun attitude. He can hang with vault hunters (I imagine him and Scooter came up with some mad dares for each other) as well as the bandits he led when his friends became unable to cross the lines he ended up having to. Symbolically, the scars on Brick's body represent all the beatings he probably took for his friends, and through that tenacity he grew fond of using his fists over anything else, save that which causes the most badass of explosions of course!

In short, you can summarize Brick's character with probably one of my favorite quotes in videogame history: Lilith: "Wow there are vaults all over the universe!" Brick: "Dibs!" Lilith: "You can't claim an entire universe full of vaults." Brick: "I just did." Singleminded awesomeness. Hell, in a way I think Brick probably represents a little bit of a reflection of the player when you think about it. Few words, always showing off, eager to chase a universe of vaults and dangers (Come on, you know you were excited about a universe full of vaults because it means more BL!). He's me, and he's probably you too.

I love Brick. :')


Good stuff Logos, and thanks.

11/04/2013 08:31 PMPosted by Honor
its good to see you still come here regularly since beta, even with d3 being my potential dream game, i cant bring myself to put so much time into writing about it as you, but good luck, the game needs your help


Much appreciated. I took a long absence about a year ago. D3...well, I really tried to like it and I managed to fool myself for quite some time. But I realized that whenever I played I was simply killing time until the next patch hoping that this would fix the game.

That said, I am very happy with a lot of what we have learned about RoS so far...and if Blizzard are willing to work backwards and fix aspects of the original game while adding new stuff we may be in for something really special.
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I recommend replacing Leah with Mr. Torgue. I think that would solve a lot of problems.
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11/05/2013 01:49 AMPosted by Psychatrope
I recommend replacing Leah with Mr. Torgue. I think that would solve a lot of problems.


While I'm sure you are just being silly...replacing Leah with a character more like Maya/Angel from BL2 would be fantastic. You know...someone who actually has an agenda, undergoes some sort of character growth...
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You can make it bun dem!
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11/05/2013 04:05 AMPosted by cam1g111
You can make it bun dem!


Bwee?
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This is easily the most cogent, concise, well thought out critique on D3's story line i have ever read. It
highlights exactly where and how the writers simply didn't put forth enough effort. Perhaps they just weren't skilled enough. While I doubt Blizzard could ever "fix" the story / characters, perhaps someone will read this and their next offering will be better for it.

Well thought out and very well written, Starbird.

Cheers.


I agree but i don't think has much to do with effort. It all feels like a matter of the writers being told 'don't make this too dark' 'don't make this too complicated' etc.
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Starbird,

I have read both of your posts and, in general, I agree with your sentiments. Your examples were especially good in conveying your points to the reader (I remember that scene from FFVII well).

I would just like to add that I think the main story line is just so so, but I think they did a good job in the small things (e.g. hearing NPC conversations as you pass, the young town captain in Act I, Warriv's corpse etc).

P.S. What I like about the "empty" protagonist archetype is that information is directed at you, the player, rather than at your character.
Edited by RedCell#1728 on 11/5/2013 11:32 AM PST
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What I like about the "empty" protagonist archetype is that information is directed at you, the player, rather than at your character.


Bingo. Some games do it *really* well...Portal 2 springs to mind.
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So, I've been reading through all the posts and have seen some good points brought up by Yuujin which caused me to think about what is so great about Diablo stories.

Like I mentioned previously, I agree with the OP that the bosses could have a more ominous presence etc. However there are some aspects of the way the Diablo storyline fits into the game which are done well.

First, the story doesn't bog down the gameplay, as was mentioned earlier, this is crucial for the game's flow. To me, it seems like some games have blurred the line between game and movie (e.g. Metal Gear Solid and Final Fantasy). Diablo, on the other hand, has always focused on gameplay. This difference may lead people to think that, compared to games like Final Fantasy, Diablo stories are meh, which leads to my second point, the lore surrounding Diablo.

The thing about Diablo is that there are the individual game stories, and then there's the lore. The latter gives Sanctuary a rich history, so much so that Sancuary almost seems like a real place. In D3 I liked how they added lore books that let the player delve into, if they cared to, the history of Sanctuary, thus adding to game's story without filling it up with cut scene after cut scene. Some of the more memorable lore books are: Lachdanan's, Leoric's, the Barbarians, and the new recruit.

In summary, by all means, make bosses more ominous, don't clutter up the game with cut scenes, I don't want to play a movie, and make good use of lore books and optional dialog.
Edited by RedCell#1728 on 11/5/2013 8:04 PM PST
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BTW, I really liked "Show Don't Tell" part of the OP as well. I immediately thought of the young town captain that you're introduced to in the beginning of the game. If you notice, towards the end of Act I you'll no longer see him in town. What happened to him? Well, you can walk down the Old Tristram rode and find his corpse. :_(

Nothing is mentioned about him. He's just another decent chap that fell victim to these dark times.

Edit: Also, a conversation between two town guards can be heard in which discuss the death of someone and how it could have been prevented. Some players think they're referring to the death of the young captain.
Edited by RedCell#1728 on 11/5/2013 8:23 PM PST
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Good story telling can be very involving and make you want to keep going even when the end is near.

The last game to truly do that for me was HL2: EP2. The end was so unexpected that even though I knew I was not able to move I tried and when I was able to I was rip roaring and ready to go and get some gravity gun based revenge.

The story arc of HL2 was so engaging that I forgot I was playing it and felt like I was part of it.

That is what makes it my top game series, next to TF2 for its gameplay and unique design/characters.

I haven't really felt that since. Bioshock was a great game but I didn't feel the same way.

Borderlands 2 had some great moments and I felt engaged but not as much as the HL2 story. Don't get me wrong, its a great game and I have enjoyed playing it. I actually enjoyed Tiny Tina's assault DLC a lot as it was funny, fun and unique. BL2 does have good story.

Diablo 3 however, nothing. I was enjoying the story but by the time I got to the end I didn't care anymore. It didn't have enough story to fill in the gaps where you had to grind better items to progress.

And now I play it to grind and skip the story.

I know that Diablo is mainly about loot but games have been shown to be more than what they start as. Half Life showed the world that you could take a fun FPS and put a good story to it. So why can't we have a ARPG that is engaging and makes you forget you are playing? Maybe one of these days.

I still want my revenge in Half Life 2. Damn Combine.

Diablo 3 on the other hand
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