Diablo® III

Paragon 2.0 - Not account wide

I am super stoked for RoS changes. Been playing since May 15th 2012. I am excited for the new act and crusader. I am also a veteran D2 player and I love both games...both have strengths and weaknesses that make them unique.

That said.

I am just not a fan of the projected Paragon 2.0 system. I love the fact we get to allocate stat points. Very nice. But do NOT make it ACCOUNT WIDE.

I have a paragon 91 wiz right now. I worked hard to get there. Spent like 600 hours on him.
But now when I start a new char, he gets those 91 paragon points. I level him, he also improves my wizard.

The whole point of starting a new character is to start the game fresh. Maybe you found some good low level legendarys and a have a nice hellfire ring...but the point is to start from level 1...not 91.

Dont get me wrong, I DO understand the argument FOR account wide paragon. It mainly rests in MF/GF. Most people feel pidgeon-holed into only playing their main as playing to maximize the chance of finding that godly loot. However, with the changes of Loot 2.0 (players find their own upgrades) and Mystic, there is no reason to make paragon account wide.

Each character should be an Individual. Their own entity. Instead, i will have one big experience pool for all my chars:
"great, got this char to 70. oh yea...i still have 25 billion exp to go to get to level p237"

Thus, I think paragon 2.0 should be more like this:
-Character based, not account wide (like now, each char has their own paragon level)

-Each level gives a paragon point (+1 for stat allocation, as is currently projected).

-LEVEL CAP (Some level where it forces players to make choices. For instance, someone can dump all their points into MF and forsake dps. Others may choose to only put into DPS and not go with any utility skills. Others may be nicely balanced. This would require changes to the projected amounts (1 point into intel would do +10 instead of current projection of +5 etc). Obviously this type of thing is open to interpretation and would have to be tested to find appropriate amounts).

-No respec (make a new char if you want a new type of build! One char for DPS. One char for MF. One char for PvP optimal build)

Thats all I can think of for now. I understand why blizzard is choosing to do account wide. I understand the arguments for both sides. I just think this is the way to go. Any thoughts?

EDIT: adding in some other things:
-No sense of accomplishment (no level cap = no goal. One of the most attractive features of an RPG is hitting that max level. Nothing better than that feeling.

-No INDIVIDUALITY (every char we make should be unique. The shared system takes away from that sense. all chars have the same EXP pool (once they hit 60/70)).

-Ladder argument. yes ladder gives us a fresh start....on the first char. but now i hit paragon80 on my crusader and i want to start new wd. he hits 70 and now BOOM....hes paragon 80 too with all the perks. how is that fair to people who have just been leveling wds? How does this effect class-based ladders.

ANOTHER OPTION some1 suggested that i liked:
account-wide mf/gf but character based paragon level and stat allocation.
Not sure how to implement but I think its a nice idea.

EDIT 2: bunch of troll posts out there as always. i am not saying "This way is superior...play this way or take a hike....flame flame troll troll etc." this is merely suggestion, opinion, and perhaps how i would do the system. blizz has done a great job with d3 and i will buy RoS no matter what and play till i drop
Edited by Monty11#1875 on 11/5/2013 6:42 PM PST
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Maybe the paragon thing will kick in (enable distribution of stat points etc.) only when you hit the regular level cap (60 for the everything 2.0 patch, 70 for eXpansion from what I understand)... and before that you may just play along as you would with the current paragon system, i.e. normal leveling. This should be a reasonable balance, and a nice incentive to hit the level cap, use paragon points and go MPx on Inferno.
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11/05/2013 08:35 AMPosted by SykoMcCrazy
Maybe the paragon thing will kick in (enable distribution of stat points etc.) only when you hit the regular level cap (60 for the everything 2.0 patch, 70 for eXpansion from what I understand)... and before that you may just play along as you would with the current paragon system, i.e. normal leveling. This should be a reasonable balance, and a nice incentive to hit the level cap, use paragon points and go MPx on Inferno.


Even still....you hit the cap (60 or 70) then boom....you have 90 or whatever paragon points to spend. Its just a free handout to that new character. If you want a specific character/build to be strong you have to earn it.
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I've seen this argument made before, and I'd like to get a little clarity before I pass it along. It seems your primary concern is that you’d like a way to create characters with a fresh start. Would Paragon 2.0 be fine if you also had the ability to do this?
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11/05/2013 11:58 AMPosted by Grimiku
I've seen this argument made before, and I'd like to get a little clarity before I pass it along. It seems your primary concern is that you’d like a way to create characters with a fresh start. Would Paragon 2.0 be fine if you also had the ability to do this?


will ladders also accomplish this? is there any determination on the length of ladders?
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I'd guess ladders will be fresh. It's not equal otherwise.
Then the accumulated paragon levels will be added to your normal characters once the ladder ends. Anything else would be unfair.

I for one embrace the accountwide paragon levels, I think it will be great to endlessly level and pick whichever character suited me for the moment without feeling I'm missing out somehow :-)
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11/05/2013 11:58 AMPosted by Grimiku
I've seen this argument made before, and I'd like to get a little clarity before I pass it along. It seems your primary concern is that you’d like a way to create characters with a fresh start. Would Paragon 2.0 be fine if you also had the ability to do this?


I think that this is a great idea and the way to please everyone--including HC & self-found purist players.

Have the ability at character creation to enable that character to enter into the account-wide paragon system or to not enter into the account-wide paragon system would help please everyone and I'm not sure if it would create a lot of problems of its own. It would have to be a choice like decided to be a HC character or not--one that can't be changed.
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you are not forced to use your paragon points i think , so if you want to play like that i don't see why you can't just don't use your points on a fresh character .
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Wierd idea here but if you don't want the paragon points so you can "start fresh" just don't allocate them.
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Grimiku
Community Manager
I've seen this argument made before, and I'd like to get a little clarity before I pass it along. It seems your primary concern is that you’d like a way to create characters with a fresh start. Would Paragon 2.0 be fine if you also had the ability to do this?


Yes.

I love the ability of stat allocation and the categories you guys have come up with.
I just dont think it should be account wide. Each character we make should be a unique individual, with their own arsenal and abilities and stats.

But when all of my characters have the same experience pool, that feeling of 'individuality' wont be there. All of my characters are feeding that one experience pool.

Also, by the time people get to level 200...itll take a month or 2 or 3 or whatever to get another. So those people will no longer feel that sense of progression. Level ups will be so few and far between.

Finally, with no level cap there is no goal. I am paragon 91, about 20% away from 92. I cant wait to hit level 100. That has been my goal for the last year. But no cap = no goal. I feel like this will deter players away.
Every RPG ive ever played my goal has always been to reach the highest level. Paragon 2.0 takes that sense of accomplishment away :(

As Ive said though, every other change Ive seen looks great :)

EDIT typos :)
Edited by Monty11#1875 on 11/5/2013 12:24 PM PST
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It seems your primary concern is that you’d like a way to create characters with a fresh start. Would Paragon 2.0 be fine if you also had the ability to do this?


The loss of fresh start is something that bothers me a bit with the paragon 2.0 system. Right now, when you hit p100, you feel like it is a big achievement, that you have worked hard to get there and you reached a concrete goal.

With paragon 2.0, that goal will cease to exist, as there is no more level cap. At is going to happen is many players will find themselves with no objective. Because grinding experience will be endless, we will grind xp just to grind more xp, and never to reach something as meaningful as p100 right now.

I understand the end game goal of paragon 2.0. At the moment, if you have 10 p100 characters, game is over nothing left to do. Paragon 2.0 is a fix to that, but at the price of losing the main goal of the game right now, seeing that level 100 on your screen.

A suggestion would be to keep the paragon 2.0 system as it is, but with a level cap for a single character (100 or more). Also make it so deleted characters count in your total experience pool (so you can delete and restart if your slots are full without losing xp).
Edited by RatzorPA#1718 on 11/5/2013 12:27 PM PST
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Personally I am don't understand the account-wide paragon thing. I thought I heard there would not be a level cap, does this mean that a character could continue to grow in power forever, and if so... How is that balanced? I know main stats have a stat cap, but do the others? And if so whats the point of limitless levels?

I do like the idea of being able to apply the points, but if your able to max out everything then I think it negates the ability to customize your character b/c eventually everyone will just be maxed out and their won't be any-choice left. Sure ladder will be a fresh start but it just seems to me that people will ignore gearing because now they can get stats from leveling, and I see this massively hindering any potential challenge to the game and I wouldn't doubt that we see full difficulty completetion even on Hardcore in the 1st week of ladder.

If I'm missing something, could somebody explain exactly what that would be?
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11/05/2013 12:15 PMPosted by Mike
Wierd idea here but if you don't want the paragon points so you can "start fresh" just don't allocate them.


Whoa whoa whoa. We don't take kindly to people who give rational suggestions 'round here.
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Just separate the paragon levels with ladders. 3 ladders should be available at all times. First just being the standard pool, second ladder allowing you to use your shared paragon level, but yet remain competitive, third being a completely separate entity. The three ladders could be named as such

  • Standard- Paragon 2.0 fully enabled, paragon level is shared account wide.
  • Account wide Competitive- Paragon 2.0 fully enabled, overall paragon level is pitted against other players in the ladder.
  • Character Competitive- Paragon 2.0 is not fully enabled, though you can still use paragon points to assign upgrades to your character, the paragon level is not shared with other characters in your account. Every character you create enters the ladder as it's own separate entity.
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    Wow lol

    I was sure I wanted a shared paragon system, but the OP made me change my mind... damn.

    No offense Blizzard, but with all your pretty graphics and well-oiled mechanics (and with the amazing content in RoS), the thing that gets me all excited to start a game in Diablo 2 is the feeling of starting a new character and being able to either screw it up, or make it amazing.

    So I do agree with OP. You have to aim for the hardcore gamers and the game will become something more (a legend Mr Wayne, a legend).

    1. No shared paragon. Real gamers will take the time to level up other characters if they want.

    And more importantly:

    2. No respec (or maybe only 1 allowed).

    There you go. The game will be amazing.
    Edited by bearr#2157 on 11/5/2013 12:35 PM PST
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    Hitting max level and having your power increase many times over from an alts paragon does sound like a bad thing. It kind of shortens the lifespan or replay value for each additional character once you gain a lot of paragon. It's similar to having a full set of gear ready for a new character that you found with your alt.

    I also don't like the idea of being "pigeon holed" into playing my main as the OP put it.

    I think possible middle ground would be to make severe restrictions on respeccing paragon points. Something like losing 5-10% of your paragon points/levels when you reset them. This would allow one to have a new "main" any time they want but deter you from dumping your paragon points into every new character making them much stronger than they should be.

    edit- or even an always present "fee" paid in paragon for transferring points from one character to another.
    Edited by Matthew#1923 on 11/5/2013 12:41 PM PST
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    I don't know why there's a level cap. I wish RoS would release Ludicrous Speed difficulty and remove the level cap. Every game ever made has a level cap though. I'm not sure at which game designer cabal this was decided or why. It sure does ruin an otherwise good game. If I was a conspiracy theory nutcase I'd think that Paragon Leveling was a way to sidestep the secret rule about capping level at 60 (which then goes on to cap it at 100 PL.) I'm not even sure what the point of the Paragon Level system is if this isn't the case. Why not just let people level to 160? Confusing? Yes. Dumb? Maybe.
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    11/05/2013 12:34 PMPosted by Matthew
    It's similar to having a full set of gear ready for a new character that you found with your alt.


    You are WAY over stating the bonus from paragon levels. Same for OP. You guys are completely over exaggerating the bonus you get from paragon points...especially just 90 points or so...

    Starting an Alt and having 90 points isn't even going to be any different than throwing that really cool helm you found on your main on your alt when you hit 60 or 70 or whatever.

    If you want a "fresh start" then don't use your paragon points on your alts and don't use gear from your main on your alt.
    Edited by SmokeyMcBudd#1518 on 11/5/2013 12:49 PM PST
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