Diablo® III

Paragon 2.0 - Not account wide

Whats with you people and your goal oriented hand holding. With all the changes being put in there, you will have plenty to strive for on new/fresh characters.

Do rules, barriers, obstacles really give you enough to continue playing? Or has that illusion of choice and decisions made it enigmatic to the point you feel the need to force them to program their way into your accomplishments?

... You seem to have no understanding of the changes being made... That or troll post. Either way major failsauce


Yes, they are making paragon points account wide and paragon levels remain on single character.

Ok, so now we both understand each other, please explain why you think not having account wide paragon points deters you from creating a new character, gaining experience, leveling up, and upgrading your gear. Otherwise, all I hear is discontent for another feature based on feelings. Its either one way or the highway with you people.
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@ semixform couldn't agree more , i'd like to have the freedom to play my game the way I want to not be forced to play someone elses idea of what it should be .allow us who wan't the freedom to respect and have unlimited p levels ,I won't ask monty to play my way so please don't ask me to play your way.p level 300 is a long way away so is 800 they are goals im excited for paragon 2.0 ,can't wait to play forever which I think was blizzards intent to begin with giving this game some sort of longevity. peace
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Yes, they are making paragon points account wide and paragon levels remain on single character.

Ok, so now we both understand each other, please explain why you think not having account wide paragon points deters you from creating a new character, gaining experience, leveling up, and upgrading your gear. Otherwise, all I hear is discontent for another feature based on feelings. Its either one way or the highway with you people


I did not post anything relating to discontent in my OP. I said I understand the arguments on both sides. I just wanted to post my thoughts about how I thought it affected this game. I love Diablo 3 and I will play the game no matter what changes they make.

Now....to answer your 'question'
One characters progression should not affect another's in terms of experience. I am paragon 91. I make a new character, hit 60/70, and now boom, he is also paragon 91. The whole point of starting a new character is for that character to be an individual, to have his own experience pool an earn his own way in the world.

Now...apply paragon 2.0 to ladders. (ive made this argument a few times now)...
I have a paragon 85 crusader and I want to start a WD.
I get that WD to level 70 and....bam...he is now level 85 and gets all of these free paragon points

How is that fair to the people who have only been playing witch doctors. This will skew the way class ladders work. Of course, they could make it so your exp only counts toward witch doctor ladder when im playing my witch doctor. But what about DPS ladder? Paragon 83 gave me points in cirt and main stat and whatever else.

Finally, with insta respec....there is simply the "flavor of the month" build
With the categories they have given us...there are no bad choices. MF? movement speed? main stat? Crit? Everyone wants these things on their character
You select what points you put your stats in to. simple as that. There are no mistakes with the categories they give us.

Want a new build, make a new character.

As of now, in 2.0 I will only make 1 character of each class and thatll be it. Deters us away from starting anew
Edited by Monty11#1875 on 11/5/2013 3:03 PM PST
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11/05/2013 12:22 PMPosted by Monty11
But no cap = no goal


I am going to respectfully disagree with you here OP. Reaching a level cap may be a goal for you, but perhaps another person's goal is to see just how high of a paragon level they can achieve. Since each plvl provides only a small bonus in any given category it only makes sense that you would need to be able to obtain a high plvl to maximize those bonuses.

11/05/2013 08:17 AMPosted by Monty11
but the point is to start from level 1...not 91.


The way this is stated makes me think that you believe the bonuses from EACH plvl are going to be quite meaninful, which is not the case as things currently stand. Do I read that correctly?
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11/05/2013 02:54 PMPosted by skipwilson
@ semixform couldn't agree more , i'd like to have the freedom to play my game the way I want to not be forced to play someone elses idea of what it should be .allow us who wan't the freedom to respect and have unlimited p levels ,I won't ask monty to play my way so please don't ask me to play your way.p level 300 is a long way away so is 800 they are goals im excited for paragon 2.0 ,can't wait to play forever which I think was blizzards intent to begin with giving this game some sort of longevity. peace


Well we are all going to the play the game with the way the developers want :)

Remember, there is no level cap. Of course they said that at level 800 you can max everything out in terms of stats and then all points after that just go toward main stat.

But how does this add to the future of 'builds' and 'customization'.

At lower levels, sure, you make respec to change to a different build.
But you hit a point where it no longer matters. One side of this argument is that it is a good thing. This rewards the players who have put time into the game and i like that.

But think of the individual character. Each character is grinding that one experience pool. Each character can respec at will. I think this again will lead to the "flavor of the month" set-up we have now.

As you stated above, this is purely opinion and speculation. I did not mean to offend you by "asking you to play my way". Just voicing opinions of how I would do it and seeing what other people think.
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Posted by Monty11
But no cap = no goal

I am going to respectfully disagree with you here OP. Reaching a level cap may be a goal for you, but perhaps another person's goal is to see just how high of a paragon level they can achieve.


play till ya drop :)

Havent thought of it that way before. Not sure if you can qualify it as a 'goal', as a goal typically has a set endpoint/result before you start. But I do see what you mean
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With the categories they have given us...there are no bad choices. MF? movement speed? main stat? Crit? Everyone wants these things on their character


I agree fully that respec'ing doesn't provide much individuality. On that same token, it also doesn't provide meaningful gameplay alterations. As someone leveling and choosing stats, you will get to a certain point that your current (permenant) build is lacking certain stats, so you will continue to put points into those stats until it is capped. This will happen all the way to Paragon Point 800. until at that point in time, all your characters will be equally as leveled regardless of your "mistakes". So in between that time, nothing meaningful came out of your decisions. The result is the same.

I don't agree that Paragon should be setup this way. Its just your proposals haven't shown me anything detrimental to my entertainment value.

11/05/2013 03:02 PMPosted by Monty11
How is that fair to the people who have only been playing witch doctors.


Because Paragon Points are different then Paragon Levels. Your levels do not determine your overall points. Kind of confusing right now.

11/05/2013 03:02 PMPosted by Monty11
The whole point of starting a new character is for that character to be an individual, to have his own experience pool an earn his own way in the world.


Just wanted to touch on this real quick. Grinding away paragon on antoher character from start really is just additional 'work'. And I say work, because as far as your concerned, you've played the content, you've leveled up to that point already. Saying that your new character should be new in all aspects of the game, doesn't mean you have a new way of playing the game... err not this game.

So what i'm trying to say is, if this were implemented differently, maybe you would have a case, but its not. Lets have more constructive discussions on matters that we can change, on things ideas and concepts that have yet to be finalized and there is some sway on. Because telling us to play the game differently because you have a specific feeling about its existing implementation isn't going to help anybody.
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Yes, they are making paragon points account wide and paragon levels remain on single character.

Ok, so now we both understand each other, please explain why you think not having account wide paragon points deters you from creating a new character, gaining experience, leveling up, and upgrading your gear. Otherwise, all I hear is discontent for another feature based on feelings. Its either one way or the highway with you people.


First of all I never said it detered any of that
And second perhaps you should read this.

'All experience earned by max level characters will count towards an account-wide Paragon level. This level, rather than the individual character levels, will award paragon points that can be spent on all characters; not just the specific character who earned the experience'

'The Paragon experience earned by all existing characters will be added into the system when it goes live;

Now, you've made me curious as there is something that has not yet been stated about paragon levels. Which is do characters keep them? Not that it matters too much, by my assumption based on what I've read/seen was no, but that is not stated in anyway, shape or form.

The things I don't like about it are:

1) Well for starters are the handouts to all the characters you haven't leveled or spent near as much time on.

2) Will the game be balanced around this?(next ones big)

3) If our characters keep there paragon levels, that means we keep the stat bonuses we've already got which is 300 to your primary at para 100.
Then you start adding the paragon points bonuses, thats potentially 600 free stats(as much as 1 lvl 70 will give to main stat, but the 2nd 300 is to every stat). Then add all the other stats +10% crit if its maxed(more then almost any/every item slot can offer(even at 70)

4) Same as 1 but coming back and all your characters get these bonuses... 600 stats at lvl 60 is... surreal. thats 1/5-1/6 of most ppls TOTAL main stat... Even without characters keeping their paragon levels it will build up to a very large ammont of stats, far more then any 1 item can grant.

It just seems very poorly thought out to buff every character for the work of one. Agree or don't, its my outlook and evidently a shared one. And yeah I know my writing can be hard to follow, so sorry if you felt so.
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What is the problem here?
They are removing the passive increase in stats with paragon level.
Your fresh character can remain fresh simply by not assigning those points.
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11/05/2013 11:58 AMPosted by Grimiku
I've seen this argument made before, and I'd like to get a little clarity before I pass it along. It seems your primary concern is that you’d like a way to create characters with a fresh start. Would Paragon 2.0 be fine if you also had the ability to do this?


I understand (and don't mind) the desire to "create" a character from scratch all the way to level fourty-whatever. I also understand why people want an account wide level, because it reflects time played. It just doesn't reflect time played (experience) with that particular character.

I would be happy with either system. It all depends on if it fits Diablo's fantasy. There could be a different system for ladder paragon and regular. Ladder can have individualized paragon experience whereas regular can have account wide.

Upon further thinking I think it should be individualized no matter what. Boy, I hope this isn't due to the fact I reinstalled D2 today...hmmm.

If I have a paragon of 100 and I have 35K elite kills with my Wiz that makes sense. If I have paragon level of 100 and 13K elite kills with my WD that does not make sense. My paragon says I am experienced but in reality I am not experienced. Only experienced with Wizzies.

I think the characters should earn their points, not the account.
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What is the problem here?
They are removing the passive increase in stats with paragon level.
Your fresh character can remain fresh simply by not assigning those points.


Everyone like this is missing one huge thing which is competitive-players(which there are ALOT of and they will be back when RoS is out). Some players, have other people play when they are sleeping. This is like saying: "Hey you can still do that its all good, but now you can level seperate characters and now BOTH of your characters are getting stronger faster. Which for those of us in the HC community, ain't really fair, cuz now the second guy doesnt have to risk anything to power up his buddy.
Edited by Veracruz#1867 on 11/5/2013 3:21 PM PST
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11/05/2013 03:12 PMPosted by Monty11
Not sure if you can qualify it as a 'goal', as a goal typically has a set endpoint/result before you start.


I like to think of goals as things we continually strive for...Really though we are arguing semantics here.
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What is the problem here?
They are removing the passive increase in stats with paragon level.
Your fresh character can remain fresh simply by not assigning those points.


Everyone like this is missing one huge thing which is competitive-players(which there are ALOT of and they will be back when RoS is out). Some players, have other people play when they are sleeping. This is like saying: "Hey you can still do that its all good, but now you can level seperate characters and now BOTH of your characters are getting stronger faster. Which for those of us in the HC community, ain't really fair, cuz now the second guy doesnt have to risk anything to power up his buddy.


These people are violating terms of service.
IIgnoring that for a second... People who are splitting an account 24/7 aren't the type of people who would turn down free stats. Why would they want to not get the benefit from the other player?
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This level, rather than the individual character levels, will award paragon points that can be spent on all characters; not just the specific character who earned the experience
==
Yes, they are making paragon points account wide and paragon levels remain on single character.

Anyways, the argument that your character is not fresh because when they get to the lvl that they start earning paragon (60 for d3c, 70 for RoS), they are able to apply their account wide points into that character. But the truth is, this just a human feeling, and I don't see any justification for changing the way that works. In fact, I would probably argue if it wasn't setup that way. Because as a player, I've surpassed that content (content == paragon levels), so why would I have to repeat it?

This feeling of creating and new character and getting to the same point as I already have many times before it doesn't seem very new to me. I understand that it would for you.

11/05/2013 03:13 PMPosted by Veracruz
Even without characters keeping their paragon levels it will build up to a very large ammont of stats, far more then any 1 item can grant.


Yep, their intentions are to give you an upgrade path. So you have have gear dependant stats, and paragon stats. Somethings you will have to find, somethings you will have to grind. Its a descent balance actually.

Think about it this way, getting to lvl 60 fresh and I've already got 200 Paragon Points. Maybe I'm playing HC and I don't need the extra Vit. This will open up different upgrades for me in the meantime. At some point, lets say I find an item that gives me a crap tone of vit and some other bonuses, now i can focus on other aspects with my gear. But in now way, shape or form does me grinding that paragon all over again give me any more choices in the matter. Thats what I want you to see.
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These people are violating terms of service.
IIgnoring that for a second... People who are splitting an account 24/7 aren't the type of people who would turn down free stats. Why would they want to not get the benefit from the other player?


... That question had better be intended as a rhetorical one lol
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'Don't use the system if you don't like it' continues to be a really bad argument.
People shouldn't have to blindfold themselves, set up funny rules of playing without hands, or don't increase their characters power, to circumvent potential issues with a game.


So by arguing this way you are saying that because you don't like a feature then no one should have it? Having a choice to use those points or not is always better than having no choice at all.

I'm saying that there is no reasonable choice in such a scenario.
A choice really requires that all options are somewhat desirable.
One option being 'not to use an empowering game mechanic' pretty much only means the choice is stupid at best, or simply not real.

I'm saying that when someone think account-wide paragon is a problem, then telling them not to use it, is not a fair counterargument.
From such a point of view, then yeah, either no one should have the feature, or the feature should be changed so it represented an actual choice. Depending on the goal.
I don't personally think account-wide paragon is a problem though. Quite the contrary. One of the most positive changes in RoS.

Tbh, it sounds like ladder is solving nearly any and all issues people could have with account-wide paragon, by offering fresh starts every so often.

If there are any issues with paragon 2.0, it is more that the system seems to be about selecting the same old boring stats in a pre-defined order - which sounds like a very uninteresting system. But that is mostly an issue with the awful stat system in D3.

Well, and maybe the lack of respec cost. But respec cost would be much more relevant for skills than it could ever be for paragon.
Edited by Shadout#2849 on 11/5/2013 3:35 PM PST
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Because Paragon Points are different then Paragon Levels. Your levels do not determine your overall points. Kind of confusing right now.


Right...but in terms of ladder..
The points I earned on my crusader apply to my witchdoctor. Thus, my witch doctor is stronger having only played my crusader.

How is that fair in terms of ladder for only the people who have played only witch doctor. This makes it easier for me to move up the witch doctor ladder now, which goes against the whole ladder philosophy. Obviously finding gear on one character and using it on another is one thing. But the STAT POINTS earned on one char being applied to another...especially in a ladder situation...just doesnt seem right.
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Right...but in terms of ladder..
The points I earned on my crusader apply to my witchdoctor. Thus, my witch doctor is stronger having only played my crusader.

How is that fair in terms of ladder for only the people who have played only witch doctor. This makes it easier for me to move up the witch doctor ladder now, which goes against the whole ladder philosophy. Obviously finding gear on one character and using it on another is one thing. But the STAT POINTS earned on one char being applied to another...especially in a ladder situation...just doesnt seem right.


I've purposefully ignored all your ladder responses. I'm not sure how they will work and they haven't released any final data on the matter.

What I would suspect though, is that if there is a specific class ladder, it will only include that classes paragon.

Again, they even stated they have no real confirmation on any of the ladder stuff, only how the paragon works.
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I've purposefully ignored all your ladder responses. I'm not sure how they will work and they haven't released any final data on the matter.

What I would suspect though, is that if there is a specific class ladder, it will only include that classes paragon.


Fair enough

But then whats the point of shared paragon?
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