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The study is not meant to be terribly accurate. The amount of time and checking needed to do that would be huge, if it all possible. But currently, we don't have a standard to measure any of our builds and this is the first take.
All-act times is too much RNG. Even vota is too much RNG. I get a 4 sec variation on Ghom tests with SNS alone and that's fighting the same target, same skills, same map, same position, etc on one target. Boss kill times are not true eps either because aside from a number of reasons, it doesn't represent a typical farming environment, but it's the closest we got to a constant measuring stick.
As for the arcane torrent player getting a good boss kill score and farming carefully with no deaths, let them. If a GC SNS wants to do the same, let them. What will happen is another player will try it and see that they are not getting the same result. The original poster will get challenged and I can see/record how they are (or not) pulling it off. Thus, "Try not to be the wizard that put in 0 deaths, then get killed twice when challenged."
If you're arguing on better accuracy with overall run times because most people don't do bosses, then someone will say, most gg players don't play solo and the test should be based on group skills and gameplay, and then another person will argue that although gg gear, mobility, and group synergy is important, it pales in comparison to someone who just plays an extra hour and real life time management is how we should rate wizards. Someone will always be unhappy with how we measure something as elusive as edps. We use bosses for now with the acknowledgement that it's not a perfect test.
I also want to measure these tests based on normal gameplay as much as possible. So I don't want players to be forced to rush it because they are on the clock. Just play normally. If your favorite build can't pass SB, then that's perfectly fine. I'm not going to give you a prize if you can beat SB.
Sands is a good test. It was my #2 or #3 pick, the other being Oasis. But I picked vota because of high density elites. So builds that do well with elites can shine there, much like how builds that do well with trash can shine in FoM. If more people like sands over vota, I can change.
I meant to include it along with VotA. When I have the time tomorrow, I'm going to try testing all of these twice; Once with Evo and once with GC. Maybe even some average times for both if I can fit that many runs in. Though probably skip the GC runs for Act 4, Nekarat already hurts big time.
@Kiza: It's your study, I just was concerned that boss fights will be disadvantageous to some otherwise competitive builds. And I'm not advocating this position from it benefiting me. While I'm a die-hard Meteor wizard, I enjoy using a secondary skill (like Wicked Wind) to help me spam on singles.
It's just night-and-day difference on some builds to have more than a single target, and so I feel like I'll read the DPS multiplier results and shrug. A lot of work has been done on single fights in the past, and often these fights only tell us a worst-case lower bound estimate on a build's DPS multiplier. And I think for anyone who's trying to sort through which builds are effective, worst-case DPS multipliers, while sometimes helpful, don't really paint a picture of the build's expected DPS-output. And for some builds too, it's the exact opposite results. And for those builds, a singles fight results in the highest expected DPS multiplier.
I wonder then if Iskatu wouldn't be a good additional choice, since it's a boss fight with tons of minions around. And so it might be useful to contrast a DPS multiplier from a multi-target boss fight with the Azmo- and SB- boss fights. :)
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 11/7/2013 9:28 PM PST
No, you're quite correct! It's a downside to Iskatu (about 16-18 mil versus say Ghom's 138mil), and he can lag machines with so many minions present. My personal favorite is Kulle Tests that I've done for testing Meteor's DPS multiplier (i.e. you time how fast you can kill Kulle's minions), but it's fairly short too as they only have 27-29million life. Sadly there's no real good alternative for lots of life except for maybe ubers. :/
This is fun! I know its not going to be a perfect test but it gives us something to do and its a record on how things will change once the exp hits and we dont have perma archon and sns anymore. These are my numbers, I didnt feel like getting a recorder so I just did the test using the timer on my phone, so there will be some seconds off for hitting the timer but its a rough guess and showing what people around my build can achieve. I dont run mp10 ever pretty much because I hate the extra time to kill elites so it was nice knowing that I can do every act and not be too horrible at it. I have screen shots of the map at the end of each run if interested. I made sure to kill everything, well I didnt kill all the wall thingers in act 4 but all normal things yes. Hope this helps and gets this started!
Here is the stats from d3up
Sdandard SNS with wormhole
Crit Chance: 58.5%
Total Damage Reduction: 87.63%
5. death count
Act1: FoM = 0
Act2: Sands = 4
Act2: VoTA = 1
Act2: Kulle = 0
Act3: FoS = 1
Act3: SB = 0
Act3: Core = 0
Act3: Azmo = 0
Act4: spires1 = 2
Kill time (in seconds)
SB: 148 sec
Kulle: 156 sec
Core: 116 sec
Azmo: 109 sec
I also didnt get any shrines.
Edited by Sal#1654 on 11/8/2013 11:42 AM PST
Yikes, people are starting already.
Ok, didn't have time to talk to tekk, but I don't want to drag this. So, I'll add Kulle kill time AND the time it takes to run core (leading to Azmo). Time for that starts when you waypoint into Core of Arreat and ends when you click on Azmo's entrance. Everything killed, but if you miss a scorpion or something small, no biggee. The Core run is fixed and somewhat short, but skills like wormhole and scramble can be utilized well in there. I don't want this to be "my" test, but something the wizard community feels can represent a good mixture of tests to compare builds.
I updated the first post to include a template and some more tests. Use that.
You can also Add/change out whatever and ill do them as well, along if i feel like doing more runs I could do an average as well since I think I kinda played like poo but who knows.
Also for a little information, desolate sands was easily the hardest thing I had to do (just to get vota) I died prolly 4 times, granted I was just tele everywhere to find it and it was the last place I looked, but never really playing it on mp10 gave me quite the surprise. Adding that would be a good gear check for an overall build I would think. Those stupid poison bugs are quite the pain.
Edited by Sal#1654 on 11/8/2013 10:02 AM PST
You're the 3rd person that wanted Sands, so done. I'll add that in. And frankly, it's a good test. It's part of the VSORCS xp farming run and has a good mixture of trash and elites. I just need to be aware of adding more and more tests, which can be discouraging.
Edited by kiza#1883 on 11/8/2013 10:24 AM PST
Yikes, people are starting already.Thanks Kiza I like that! I'll try to get a chance to add my times today, but if not it might be a week for me (going to a week-long science conference tomorrow). So I'm not trying to arm-chair this one. :lol
1. Build: Typical SNS with Deep Freeze / Safe Passage
2. build link: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#VQXhYT!gWb!YaccYc
3. 254,072k unbuffed DPS, 87,2% mit + 7elite/6melee, 45928 life, 1304 loh, 2,77APS, 61% unbuf CC
5. done consecutively, just one run, no "special selected" runs, timed runs are on video
a2 Sands: 2
(first pack of white lacuni stalkers lol; second yellow sand dweller giant + imp minions: shielded, instant 6+ arcanes out + reflect to deach, never even had a chance, took a video next time and again just barely escaped alive, loved the hard pack, every HC player nightmare; videoproof of them: http://youtu.be/EmiEyEX-dkA)
(survivived 5 sec DC while fighting nasty electrified whirling elite pack as my bandicap trial stopped rec at 10 min and had to quit to desktop and alt-tab back to the game)
a2 kulle: 0 facetanked without needing SP, time 57 sec
(nasty frozen/RD/vortex/firechain winged moloks)
a3 SB: 0 time 105sec
(got grabbed 4 times)
a3 core:0, time 160sec
a3 azmo:0, time 87sec
(facetanking at the far edge behind azmo, spamming SP once in a few secs)
a4 spire1+leah: 0
(but some really nasty fights)
6. Scoundrel with buriza (sheet dps was buffed to 262652 dps)
7. pretty crappy ping with say 150 average.
FoM - 8:11.2 1 Elites, KW, 0 deaths
Direct copy-paste of recorded data. Fairly normal runs altogether. None better or worse than average.
1. SNS (Deep Freeze for farming runs, Bone Chill for boss fights)
3. 315k DPS + 394k EHPunbuffed @ P91, 2.502 APS, 55.5 CC, 440 LooH, 2,5 LS (before scoundrel)
Act 2 Sands: 2
Act 2 VotA: 0
Act 2 Kulle: 0
Act 3 FoS: 1
Act 3 SB: 1
Act 3 Core: 0
Act 3 Azmo: 0
Act 4 Spire 1: 1
6. Kill times: (average in seconds)
SB: 69.9 [DF: 78.9]
Azmo: 60.03 [DF: 68.9]
7. Scoundrel with Buriza (Shown in profile)
8. Ping between 100 - 110 on average
EDIT: Alternate kill times.
Edited by Enremeit#1915 on 11/8/2013 4:33 PM PST
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