Diablo® III

Cop-out Answer: Tyrael is Mortal, not Human.

Posts: 3,940
We know that Demon + Angel = Human/Nephalem. If Tyrael gets rid of his angel-ness he appears human. Would you call Tyrael human?

He is not human, he's mortal. He chose the form of a human. He's always been on the side of the humans, has a lot of respect for humanity and really thinks humanity is the way to the future. Even during the cinematic between him and Imperius he tries to convince him to side with the humans. He is not Nephalem though. He is not part-demon.

Source: http://www.diablofans.com/news/2186-lore-and-story-qa/

Oh really?

If Tyrael is not human, then why does he look like a human?

How does this plot hole make any sense?

Can any 100%-angel-0%-demon creature, like Tyrael, just randomly choose to be a 100%-human-looking-"mortal", despite being 0% demon?
Edited by Eigenscape#6207 on 11/8/2013 11:44 PM PST
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Obvious plotholes is obvious.

Tyreal didn't even need to become human/mortal to prove his point. That was almost entirely out of left field. The only explanation is that he wanted to "show" that he was totally on the side of humans by becoming one when really just helping us along the way would have realistically sufficed.

I mean think about it, if you're a man and you're fighting for the rights of women, you don't go and get a sex change just to prove your point because that would be categorically insane.
Edited by Providence#1541 on 11/9/2013 1:29 AM PST
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Hm? It's a totally reasonable explanation backed by pretty obvious canon.
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11/10/2013 04:30 PMPosted by Chris
Hm? It's a totally reasonable explanation backed by pretty obvious canon.

No it's not.

If Tyrael is not human, then why does he look like a human?

Back by what canon? Give me another example of an angel turning into a human-looking "mortal".

Blizzard says that Tyrael is a mortal who "chose the form of a human", so can he choose another mortal form, e.g. can Tyrael choose to be a fish?
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11/10/2013 09:58 PMPosted by Symplectic
If Tyrael is not human, then why does he look like a human?
Because he no longer identified with Heaven, as seen in the "sacrifice" cinematic. His history with taking the side of humans goes back pretty far in history

11/10/2013 09:58 PMPosted by Symplectic
Back by what canon? Give me another example of an angel turning into a human-looking "mortal".
Well, I was speaking about the canon proving that Tyrael has been breaking away from Heaven for a very long time and alligning himself with mortal man. I don't think there are any other incidences of an angel (or demon) choosing mortality, but demons famously shapeshift into human and even angelic forms, and there has been at least one incident of another angel shifting into a human form, Inarius. The leader of Eirena's sisterhood, "The Prophet" has apparently done so as well, but there is some dispute whether or not that angel and Inarius are one in the same.

11/10/2013 09:58 PMPosted by Symplectic
Blizzard says that Tyrael is a mortal who "chose the form of a human", so can he choose another mortal form, e.g. can Tyrael choose to be a fish?
I'm sure he's not some sort of shapeshifter and that the power to alter his form was a privilege only granted to him with his full angelic powers. He doesn't have the ability to change after losing the majority of his power. If he wanted to become a fish at the time of his transformation, I'm sure he had the power to do so.
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11/10/2013 10:56 PMPosted by Chris
If Tyrael is not human, then why does he look like a human?
Because he no longer identified with Heaven, as seen in the "sacrifice" cinematic. His history with taking the side of humans goes back pretty far in history


I actually really question this thought process greatly. It's 100% fine that he doesn't identify with heaven, but I don't understand what good he thinks he could do for sanctuary as a mortal. He very well could just be an angel/immortal who doesn't follow the other angels
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11/11/2013 01:13 AMPosted by Providence
Because he no longer identified with Heaven, as seen in the "sacrifice" cinematic. His history with taking the side of humans goes back pretty far in history


I actually really question this thought process greatly. It's 100% fine that he doesn't identify with heaven, but I don't understand what good he thinks he could do for sanctuary as a mortal. He very well could just be an angel/immortal who doesn't follow the other angels


Agreed. I think he could accomplish so much more if he was still the Archangel of Justice. As a mortal, even if he took the mantle of Wisdom, he still does not have the power of an Archangel. He is mostly useless.
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I actually really question this thought process greatly. It's 100% fine that he doesn't identify with heaven, but I don't understand what good he thinks he could do for sanctuary as a mortal. He very well could just be an angel/immortal who doesn't follow the other angels
Agreed. I think he could accomplish so much more if he was still the Archangel of Justice. As a mortal, even if he took the mantle of Wisdom, he still does not have the power of an Archangel. He is mostly useless.
The statement he made by revoking his angelic status would not have been nearly as poignant if he retained his immortality. Part of it was pure rebellion towards Heaven to prove that their unwavering adherence to law and order was their greatest flaw. Another part of it was Tyrael's fascination with the concept of choice. It was an idea that Tyrael had been toying with since Uldyssian's sacrifice that ended the Sin War. Being a mortal forces choices to be made since there is only a limited time that you are alive, but as an immortal, you have all the time in the world. Lack of choice is a flaw of both angels and demons that Tyrael was trying to flee from.

His reverence for mankind was very high when he gave up immortality, so it's possible that curiosity was in play as well. Curious to see how mortal beings could be capable of good without being bitter over their limited life.
Edited by Chris#1235 on 11/11/2013 7:13 PM PST
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Agreed. I think he could accomplish so much more if he was still the Archangel of Justice. As a mortal, even if he took the mantle of Wisdom, he still does not have the power of an Archangel. He is mostly useless.
The statement he made by revoking his angelic status would not have been nearly as poignant if he retained his immortality. Part of it was pure rebellion towards Heaven to prove that their unwavering adherence to law and order was their greatest flaw. Another part of it was Tyrael's fascination with the concept of choice. It was an idea that Tyrael had been toying with since Uldyssian's sacrifice that ended the Sin War. Being a mortal forces choices to be made since there is only a limited time that you are alive, but as an immortal, you have all the time in the world. Lack of choice is a flaw of both angels and demons that Tyrael was trying to flee from.

His reverence for mankind was very high when he gave up immortality, so it's possible that curiosity was in play as well. Curious to see how mortal beings could be capable of good without being bitter over their limited life.


Sure it wouldn't be nearly as poignant if he hadn't stripped himself of immortality, but it also would have been less stupid.

The problem is that when you think about it given the context, it makes very little sense. I mean, Tyreal is one of THE 7(I think it's 7) BADDEST Mother F-cking Angels in the universe. They have been battling the TOUGHEST demons for thousands (or more, I don't keep up with the time) of years. He has several millenia of knowledge and is, if nothing else, a formidable foe. Him stripping himself of immortality drastically reduces the overall power of heaven and sanctuary in defense of hell. Remember, this isn't some couples quarrel or some legal dispute. This is the WAR OF CREATION, where the entirety of everything hangs on the balance. Heaven needs all the support it can get. The fact that he did it to prove a point is insanity.

He could have just as easily made his point by renouncing his high ranking status and self banishing himself to sanctuary, only then he'd be powerful and still be able to help sanctuary for many more eons.

However given Tyreals demonstrable track record of making short sighted/stupid decisions, this doesn't quite come out of left field.
Edited by Providence#1541 on 11/12/2013 1:17 AM PST
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The problem is that when you think about it given the context, it makes very little sense. I mean, Tyreal is one of THE 7(I think it's 7) BADDEST Mother F-cking Angels in the universe. They have been battling the TOUGHEST demons for thousands (or more, I don't keep up with the time) of years. He has several millenia of knowledge and is, if nothing else, a formidable foe. Him stripping himself of immortality drastically reduces the overall power of heaven and sanctuary in defense of hell. Remember, this isn't some couples quarrel or some legal dispute. This is the WAR OF CREATION, where the entirety of everything hangs on the balance. Heaven needs all the support it can get. The fact that he did it to prove a point is insanity.

He could have just as easily made his point by renouncing his high ranking status and self banishing himself to sanctuary, only then he'd be powerful and still be able to help sanctuary for many more eons.

However given Tyreals demonstrable track record of making short sighted/stupid decisions, this doesn't quite come out of left field.
Tyrael's choice to become mortal was not a power play. Tyrael came to the (likely correct) conclusion that humanity was Creation's finest child, and that they were the future - a future in which Angel nor Demon had a role. So, he didn't do it so that Heaven or Sanctuary would have an easier time with Hell because he already knew that Hell would fall to the Nephalem, and probably assumes that Heaven will too, someday. And again, at that point, he could not have cared less about Heaven, so it certainly was not an attempt to further their ideals.
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SPOILERS!!!
The problem is that when you think about it given the context, it makes very little sense. I mean, Tyreal is one of THE 7(I think it's 7) BADDEST Mother F-cking Angels in the universe. They have been battling the TOUGHEST demons for thousands (or more, I don't keep up with the time) of years. He has several millenia of knowledge and is, if nothing else, a formidable foe. Him stripping himself of immortality drastically reduces the overall power of heaven and sanctuary in defense of hell. Remember, this isn't some couples quarrel or some legal dispute. This is the WAR OF CREATION, where the entirety of everything hangs on the balance. Heaven needs all the support it can get. The fact that he did it to prove a point is insanity.

He could have just as easily made his point by renouncing his high ranking status and self banishing himself to sanctuary, only then he'd be powerful and still be able to help sanctuary for many more eons.

However given Tyreals demonstrable track record of making short sighted/stupid decisions, this doesn't quite come out of left field.
Tyrael's choice to become mortal was not a power play. Tyrael came to the (likely correct) conclusion that humanity was Creation's finest child, and that they were the future - a future in which Angel nor Demon had a role. So, he didn't do it so that Heaven or Sanctuary would have an easier time with Hell because he already knew that Hell would fall to the Nephalem, and probably assumes that Heaven will too, someday. And again, at that point, he could not have cared less about Heaven, so it certainly was not an attempt to further their ideals.


SPOILERS!!!

I don't know.. There was a clip showing the end cinematic of the Crusader where Tyreal very well does question whether the nephalem will be good or succumb to evil.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCr5Oq_DF74

Keep in mind that this video also proves that he is just NOW coming to the conclusion that the Nephalem are able to overpower angels.

In other words, this video shows that it is entirely likely that not only did Tyreal not even think that Nephalem could defeat angels, but that there's a very real possibility that they could side with hell. This is all well after Tyreal sided with them

SPOILERS!!!
Edited by Providence#1541 on 11/14/2013 5:38 PM PST
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Gotta tell ya, the second you brought up that video I scrolled right past as fast as I could. I know it contains heavy spoilers that I don't want. So I can't comment on that until RoS is out.
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11/12/2013 03:42 PMPosted by Chris
Gotta tell ya, the second you brought up that video I scrolled right past as fast as I could. I know it contains heavy spoilers that I don't want. So I can't comment on that until RoS is out.


haha my bad, well then should we continue this conversation after RoS? :p
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I have nothing else to add, I think, so sure. Though Storm of Light should be a pretty damn good source for this specific question.
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I am so giddy getting to talk about this. I love lore questions. =D

11/08/2013 11:42 PMPosted by Symplectic
If Tyrael is not human, then why does he look like a human?


When Tyrael became mortal, his body began to form in his fall. He had a measure of control over this process, and as his goals were to ultimately benefit humanity, taking the form of a human was most ideal. After all, he would need to walk among humans and nephalem and fit in. It made sense to blend in.

It's important to note, however, that Tyrael is not a shape-shifter. This is how he looks now.

11/11/2013 01:13 AMPosted by Providence
t's 100% fine that he doesn't identify with heaven, but I don't understand what good he thinks he could do for sanctuary as a mortal. He very well could just be an angel/immortal who doesn't follow the other angels


The issue with this is that the Angiris Council (and indeed, all angels) adhere to their laws so vehemently that there was no room for Tyrael to act outside of them without cutting his ties. The Book of Tyrael touches on this a bit, particularly on how while they have great power in this devotion, it also consistently limits their ability to act.

Also remember that there was once a truce struck between the High Heavens and Hells that neither side would interfere with the matters of mortals. While the Prime Evils have had no qualms about breaking this agreement (as you might expect), the Angiris Council has continued to uphold their end. Heaven's complete and utter devotion to order is both a strength and a flaw. Tyrael realized this, and decided it was best he would no longer be governed by this nature.

11/12/2013 01:16 AMPosted by Providence
They have been battling the TOUGHEST demons for thousands (or more, I don't keep up with the time) of years. He has several millenia of knowledge and is, if nothing else, a formidable foe. Him stripping himself of immortality drastically reduces the overall power of heaven and sanctuary in defense of hell.


Tyrael's strength was, indeed, formidable. But as has been proven in the past, even at his most powerful, he could not take on Diablo himself. There are plenty of powerful beings in Sanctuary (the nephalem heroes being some of them), and the power Tyrael had wasn't serving his purpose. By losing it, he instead gained the ability to help the nephalem directly as an adviser and guide - something he simply couldn't have done by staying in the heavens as an angel.

Think of it a bit like the relationship between Obi-Wan and Luke Skywalker. On the surface, Obi-Wan's death might have seemed meaningless. However, it allowed him to guide Luke in a way he wouldn't have been able to otherwise. There's a parallel there (even if it's not exactly the same).
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On the diablo lore, the prime evil's slaying is attributed to the whole group of the playable heroes? as In they did an organized group effort to achieve the task? Just wondered because I cant recall many signs on the game story dialogues that point towards this spontaneous nephalem alliances on both d2 and d3.

If I were to ask a sanctuary villager or Tyrael who saved them, would he say yeah! it was thanks to the barb,wd,wiz,monk and dh group, or would he talk about 1 individual?

The question makes sense? This topic leaves me thinking a lot, if they formed this group how did they get along? they met all at the same time? did they always worked together harmoniously? did they keep in touch after their epic deeds?
Edited by Colt#2370 on 11/14/2013 12:46 PM PST
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11/14/2013 12:01 PMPosted by Nevalistis
Obi-Wan's death


Umm, Spoiler alert!?
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Oh so Tyrael gained the current form he's using as he fell from heaven? For some reason, I completely assumed he always looked like that but never took his hood off before - which lead me to believe that all the angels had "human" forms underneath their armor.

Now that Tyrael is mortal, does he still have any powers? Or, as we see in the opening cinematic for RoS, is he just a weak pathetic under geared noob now? If he really doesn't have any powers now that he de-winged, then that would make him essentially weaker than any man - right? since "mankind" are all Nephalem in sanctuary... even if their powers are mostly gone.
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11/14/2013 12:01 PMPosted by Nevalistis
When Tyrael became mortal, his body began to form in his fall. He had a measure of control over this process, and as his goals were to ultimately benefit humanity, taking the form of a human was most ideal. After all, he would need to walk among humans and nephalem and fit in. It made sense to blend in.


That doesn't make sense. Humans are the spawn of angels and demons, no? Where did Tyrael get the demon DNA to pull off such a transformation?
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11/14/2013 01:08 PMPosted by Logos
When Tyrael became mortal, his body began to form in his fall. He had a measure of control over this process, and as his goals were to ultimately benefit humanity, taking the form of a human was most ideal. After all, he would need to walk among humans and nephalem and fit in. It made sense to blend in.
That doesn't make sense. Humans are the spawn of angels and demons, no? Where did Tyrael get the demon DNA to pull off such a transformation?
Ugh...
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