Diablo® III

Cop-out Answer: Tyrael is Mortal, not Human.

How would being an angel inhibit his goals exactly?

Tyreal is already disobedient which means he exhibits some free will, so being an angel isn't crippling his ability to do things on his own.

Being angel gives him many nifty perks like being immortal, being substantially stronger, and being able to fly.

In essence, reverting from being angel to mortal in order to help humans is a lot like a rich person burning all of their money so they can help poor people.

Maybe angles throwing a fit about it (Being very unrepresentative of their laws) and that somehow becoming mortal changed things (I'm not sure why?).
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11/14/2013 05:50 PMPosted by Nevalistis
Only Nephalem have the power of choice and Angels/Demons are guided by Fate/their aspect/good or evil etc?


This gets into a very philosophical discussion that leaps outside the realm of Diablo lore, really. Angels and demons both have the ability to make choice, and we've seen plenty of examples in the past of those that have (most notably Inarius and Lilith). Tyrael's observation is on the sheer amount of devotion his brethren have and how much it blinds them to what may seem, at least to him, the obvious "right" thing to do.

We can actually draw a reasonable comparison here to Kormac. He was following blind faith that had been drilled into him by a corrupt order, and he knew nothing else. To really grow as an individual and pursue his own goals, he had to break away from that order. Staying a Templar and following the beliefs and tenets he was taught simply stopped fitting into his life. One could say the same happened to Tyrael, albeit on a much grander scale.


Malthael's motive for killing Nephalem is that they have the choice to act good or evil. He knows that Nephalem are capable of the greatest good but still does not trust them based on that they can choose to be evil. They could be the ruin of Angels or Demons depending on what they choose. That is a risk he is not willing to take and wants to eradicate them.
This ability of choosing between good and evil is a power that MALTHEAL SAYS only the Nephalem have (not angels or demons)..
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11/14/2013 05:50 PMPosted by Nevalistis
I'm calling shenanigans. Tyrael acted outside the truce before taking on mortal form, which was actually why he and Imperius had it out in the second cinematic of Diablo III.


Tyrael's disobedience is certainly why he and Imperius butted heads. And if Tyrael continued that path up in the High Heavens, it's unlikely that Imperius would have continued to allow Tyrael to continue his shenanigans.

Tyrael avoided one conflict so he could fully focus on another. The rest of the Angiris Council wasn't willing to intervene, but Tyrael was and is. Not only does he not need to be an angel to do so, but staying an angel would have continued to inhibit his goals. It was certainly a risk, but one he felt was worth taking.

Only Nephalem have the power of choice and Angels/Demons are guided by Fate/their aspect/good or evil etc?


This gets into a very philosophical discussion that leaps outside the realm of Diablo lore, really. Angels and demons both have the ability to make choice, and we've seen plenty of examples in the past of those that have (most notably Inarius and Lilith). Tyrael's observation is on the sheer amount of devotion his brethren have and how much it blinds them to what may seem, at least to him, the obvious "right" thing to do.

We can actually draw a reasonable comparison here to Kormac. He was following blind faith that had been drilled into him by a corrupt order, and he knew nothing else. To really grow as an individual and pursue his own goals, he had to break away from that order. Staying a Templar and following the beliefs and tenets he was taught simply stopped fitting into his life. One could say the same happened to Tyrael, albeit on a much grander scale.


I was under the impression that Tyrael and Imperius were fighting because of the Worldstone, not necessarily because he had taken on human form.

Also, later on (post D3) the Angiris Council seemed to be fully willing to interfere (see both Hope and Fate actively telling you where to go to stop Diablo in act 4). Does something change?
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Its clearly not a plot hole. You re just over thinking it. Just because he looks human doesnt mean he is made just like a human(half angel/demon)...... Hence they say hes mortal not HUMAN.
Edited by CaitSith#1673 on 11/14/2013 7:46 PM PST
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I don't see how it's so hard to understand... his compassion/passion for mortals transformed him into something resembling them... The nature of being an angel is something we don't fully understand, and they are not organic in the way we would understand, the "Dna" isn't something we can mention here.

DNA is something that happened after the union, and degradation of the nephalem.
Either that or it is purely a demonic component in the Diablo World.

Angels appear to be spiritual/mineral matter. It wouldn't be hard for an angel's motivation in and of itself
to drastically change it's makeup... He identifies with man and their struggle, now he resembles them.
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Tyrael's disobedience is certainly why he and Imperius butted heads. And if Tyrael continued that path up in the High Heavens, it's unlikely that Imperius would have continued to allow Tyrael to continue his shenanigans.

Tyrael avoided one conflict so he could fully focus on another. The rest of the Angiris Council wasn't willing to intervene, but Tyrael was and is. Not only does he not need to be an angel to do so, but staying an angel would have continued to inhibit his goals. It was certainly a risk, but one he felt was worth taking.


How would being an angel inhibit his goals exactly?

Tyreal is already disobedient which means he exhibits some free will, so being an angel isn't crippling his ability to do things on his own.

Being angel gives him many nifty perks like being immortal, being substantially stronger, and being able to fly.

In essence, reverting from being angel to mortal in order to help humans is a lot like a rich person burning all of their money so they can help poor people.


because imperius would have had to make an example out of tyreal, or at least be more successful in it than he was in the cutscene where tyreal shed his armor/angelic powers

having someone like tyreal keep doing what they are doing is undermining imperius' already shakey authority (let us not forget that malthael was the leader of the angiris council until 20 years ago when the worldstone was destroyed, this seat of power is very new to imperius)

so to assert himself as the new leader he would have eventually had to settle the conflict with tyrael and make him fall in line, or have him delt with (that is if tyreal didn't kill him and usurp his position). therefore tyrael became mortal, relinquishing any authority imperius had, and ending their conflict before it reached its climax. allowing him to fight alongside the nephalem - and remember that in d2 he didn't help us like he does in d3, in d2 we saved him from baals chamber, he rezzed our merc in a4 and told us where to go for the act (and handed out 2 skill points), and then portaled us out before destroying the worldstone. in diablo 3 he fights alongside us in acts 2-4

not to mention his actions in d3 mean a lot more because not only does he fight alongside us but he is now mortal, and can be struck down in battle by even the lowest demon/merc (although blizzard makes tyrael un killable lol)
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11/14/2013 07:35 PMPosted by Ebola


Tyrael's disobedience is certainly why he and Imperius butted heads. And if Tyrael continued that path up in the High Heavens, it's unlikely that Imperius would have continued to allow Tyrael to continue his shenanigans.

Tyrael avoided one conflict so he could fully focus on another. The rest of the Angiris Council wasn't willing to intervene, but Tyrael was and is. Not only does he not need to be an angel to do so, but staying an angel would have continued to inhibit his goals. It was certainly a risk, but one he felt was worth taking.



This gets into a very philosophical discussion that leaps outside the realm of Diablo lore, really. Angels and demons both have the ability to make choice, and we've seen plenty of examples in the past of those that have (most notably Inarius and Lilith). Tyrael's observation is on the sheer amount of devotion his brethren have and how much it blinds them to what may seem, at least to him, the obvious "right" thing to do.

We can actually draw a reasonable comparison here to Kormac. He was following blind faith that had been drilled into him by a corrupt order, and he knew nothing else. To really grow as an individual and pursue his own goals, he had to break away from that order. Staying a Templar and following the beliefs and tenets he was taught simply stopped fitting into his life. One could say the same happened to Tyrael, albeit on a much grander scale.


I was under the impression that Tyrael and Imperius were fighting because of the Worldstone, not necessarily because he had taken on human form.

Also, later on (post D3) the Angiris Council seemed to be fully willing to interfere (see both Hope and Fate actively telling you where to go to stop Diablo in act 4). Does something change?


At that point, its not them meddling in human affairs, its humans getting chucked (or running headfirst) into the middle of demon/angelic affairs. Their world is getting wrecked and theyre willing to suck up their pride and ask for help from someone whos offering it.
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Something else to consider in the discussion of free will and choice and fate and yadda yadda, is that humanity kind of screws the whole thing up.

For example, Tyrael and Izual's attack on the Hellforge was prior to humanity, so it was all predetermined in fate. The assault was fated to happen, Izual was fated to be captured, and was fated to fall to the powers of Hell. Even if his actions were not "pure" and he did not always act as a perfect agent of Heaven, his actions were all bound by fate.

However, any interaction between Heaven and humanity or Hell and humanity is not fated. For example, the birth of the Prime Evil was not fated to happen, and neither was Tyrael's dissent. During non-fated events, angels and demons do have some form of choice, even though it would probably feel to them completely normal.

An interesting dilemma this brings up is that Inarius, Lilith, and the other renegades. By the same logic, their actions, at least up until the birth of Sanctuary, were completely fated actions as well. Therefore, half-demon half-angel abominations might have actually been fated to exist with the intent that the beings themselves had no fate. A little bit like cosmological natural selection. The universe was attempting to create something incredible. But this is mostly conjecture.
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Something else to consider in the discussion of free will and choice and fate and yadda yadda, is that humanity kind of screws the whole thing up.

For example, Tyrael and Izual's attack on the Hellforge was prior to humanity, so it was all predetermined in fate. The assault was fated to happen, Izual was fated to be captured, and was fated to fall to the powers of Hell. Even if his actions were not "pure" and he did not always act as a perfect agent of Heaven, his actions were all bound by fate.

However, any interaction between Heaven and humanity or Hell and humanity is not fated. For example, the birth of the Prime Evil was not fated to happen, and neither was Tyrael's dissent. During non-fated events, angels and demons do have some form of choice, even though it would probably feel to them completely normal.

An interesting dilemma this brings up is that Inarius, Lilith, and the other renegades. By the same logic, their actions, at least up until the birth of Sanctuary, were completely fated actions as well. Therefore, half-demon half-angel abominations might have actually been fated to exist with the intent that the beings themselves had no fate. A little bit like cosmological natural selection. The universe was attempting to create something incredible. But this is mostly conjecture.


I think youre taking the fate thing a little too literally. They don't have a play-by-play of what every action is going to be, nor do they have some compelling force making them follow this path. As near as I can tell, the scroll of fate just gives glimpses and vague images of what will happen. For example, they might have seen the worldstone being stolen, but have no idea when, how, why, or by whom. If they did, obviously they would be able to take steps to prevent it. In danger of sounding like a crazy physicist, just observing fate at that level would change it.
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because imperius would have had to make an example out of tyreal, or at least be more successful in it than he was in the cutscene where tyreal shed his armor/angelic powers

having someone like tyreal keep doing what they are doing is undermining imperius' already shakey authority (let us not forget that malthael was the leader of the angiris council until 20 years ago when the worldstone was destroyed, this seat of power is very new to imperius)

so to assert himself as the new leader he would have eventually had to settle the conflict with tyrael and make him fall in line, or have him delt with (that is if tyreal didn't kill him and usurp his position). therefore tyrael became mortal, relinquishing any authority imperius had, and ending their conflict before it reached its climax.


So essentially, Tyreal is able to say "F*ck You" and turning mortal absolves him of all of his responsibilities. That doesn't make any sense.

allowing him to fight alongside the nephalem - and remember that in d2 he didn't help us like he does in d3, in d2 we saved him from baals chamber, he rezzed our merc in a4 and told us where to go for the act (and handed out 2 skill points), and then portaled us out before destroying the worldstone. in diablo 3 he fights alongside us in acts 2-4

not to mention his actions in d3 mean a lot more because not only does he fight alongside us but he is now mortal, and can be struck down in battle by even the lowest demon/merc (although blizzard makes tyrael un killable lol)


if he's going against imperius' wishes then he can fight along side with us anyway. There's nothing preventing him from doing that if he's already doing his own thing. He never fought with us because of rules, not because he was physically restricted.
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So Angels can't break any of their own laws, but they can just take themselves outside of the law?
Then they aren't really laws are they?


Angels are not restricted by their own laws, they simply uphold those values in all of their actions. It doesn't mean that Auriel, for example, can't express a lack of hope. I've noticed this misconception is pretty prevalent among fans. Players form that connection in their own minds and I can see why, but it's not something that's actually written in the law.

11/14/2013 06:23 PMPosted by CheehC
This ability of choosing between good and evil is a power that MALTHEAL SAYS only the Nephalem have (not angels or demons)..


Again, there's nothing contradicting Malthael's statement in the lore;

-Tyrael doesn't choose to be evil, he simply alligns with the humans

- Lilith didn't become good and Inarius didn't become evil

- Izual was corrupted, he didn't choose evil.

- Malthael is still alligned, at least philosophically, with good.
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11/14/2013 09:16 PMPosted by Providence
So essentially, Tyreal is able to say "F*ck You" and turning mortal absolves him of all of his responsibilities.


How is he being absolved of his responsibilities? He is still very much upholding the idea of Justice after he become mortal.
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11/14/2013 09:23 PMPosted by DamienJohn
So essentially, Tyreal is able to say "F*ck You" and turning mortal absolves him of all of his responsibilities.


How is he being absolved of his responsibilities? He is still very much upholding the idea of Justice after he become mortal.


Tyreal went out of line and Imperius was apparently unable to do anything to him once he became mortal. That's essentially removing any responsibility of going out of line of the authority just for turning mortal. That doesn't make sense.
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The way I see this is: IF Tyreal didn't fall into line and stop helping, he was going to be stripped of his power anyway, because that was part of the agreement. Seems simple, really
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11/14/2013 09:31 PMPosted by Providence


How is he being absolved of his responsibilities? He is still very much upholding the idea of Justice after he become mortal.


Tyreal went out of line and Imperius was apparently unable to do anything to him once he became mortal. That's essentially removing any responsibility of going out of line of the authority just for turning mortal. That doesn't make sense.


effectively he resigned

retired police officers don't still go around arresting people like they did 30 year ago

by joining the mortal realm Tyrael places himself out of reach of Heaven because they are strongly compelled not to interfere with the mortal realm, Imperius didn't follow tyrael to sanctuary

Tyrael serves justice not authority
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Tyreal went out of line and Imperius was apparently unable to do anything to him once he became mortal. That's essentially removing any responsibility of going out of line of the authority just for turning mortal. That doesn't make sense.


effectively he resigned

retired police officers don't still go around arresting people like they did 30 year ago

by joining the mortal realm Tyrael places himself out of reach of Heaven because they are strongly compelled not to interfere with the mortal realm, Imperius didn't follow tyrael to sanctuary

Tyrael serves justice not authority


Retired police officers don't become something else entirely. Tyreal resigning his ranks would just mean he's no longer in command of anything, it shouldn't magically equate to him now being mortal, especially since it effectively wouldn't have except that he explicitly removed his wings in a dramatic climax.

Again this brings up my point that Tyreal turning mortal absolves him of his responsibility. A high ranking angel is able to give his superior the metaphorical middle finger by disobeying him, and when he turns mortal, well, we can't punish him for what he did because he's mortal!

It's like if I were in the army and I went AWOL (a crime punishable with prison) and I got a sex change and the army said "Well they're a different gender now, guess we should all go home"
Edited by Providence#1541 on 11/15/2013 2:37 AM PST
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effectively he resigned

retired police officers don't still go around arresting people like they did 30 year ago

by joining the mortal realm Tyrael places himself out of reach of Heaven because they are strongly compelled not to interfere with the mortal realm, Imperius didn't follow tyrael to sanctuary

Tyrael serves justice not authority


Retired police officers don't become something else entirely. Tyreal resigning his ranks would just mean he's no longer in command of anything, it shouldn't magically equate to him now being mortal, especially since it effectively wouldn't have except that he explicitly removed his wings in a dramatic climax.

Again this brings up my point that Tyreal turning mortal absolves him of his responsibility. A high ranking angel is able to give his superior the metaphorical middle finger by disobeying him, and when he turns mortal, well, we can't punish him for what he did because he's mortal!

It's like if I were in the army and I went AWOL (a crime punishable with prison) and I got a sex change and the army said "Well they're a different gender now, guess we should all go home"


He is no longer affiliated with the Angiris council or bound by their laws and restrictions as a mortal. Tyrale recognized that as a member of this body of entities (the angels) he would be unable to do what he felt was his job. So he quit and became freelance. Its like quitting your job and opening your own company, or moving to another country with less restrictive laws. Your army metaphor is flawed because theres nothing actually compelling the angels to fight the demons or obey those codes besides themselves. They didn't sign some spiritual agreement saying theyd die before they abandoned their laws or anything. Each angel (except Tyrael) individually agrees that the laws are worth upholding for the sake of law.
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I've seen some deliberately obtuse stupidity in my day. This easily takes the top 10.


It's a serious question. In order to "have flesh" humans are half demon. Angels are ethereal creatures with fiery wavelike wings. Just because they rip off their wings doesn't mean they should "grow flesh". The flesh came from somewhere (the demon half). Where did Tyrael get the demon DNA to make that happen?

He didn't (nor would he) need human DNA as it's not a factor. He chose the guise of a human but he's still not actually a human, he's rather a mortal angel that has taken on the human aesthetic.


Where did he get the flesh? Angels minus their wings I would equate to lost spirits since they still lack a "demon half". Where did the flesh actually come from?
Edited by Logos#1946 on 11/15/2013 6:02 AM PST
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Alright...so Tyrael is not immortal anymore not even in soul (at least that what I get it from the blue cause I had the idea his body is only mortal) then what will happen when he die? Where his soul will go if not back to the Crystal?
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I also think that the angel's armor represents some sort of adherence to their law and order vibe.
Tyrael removing it was a representation of him unbinding himself to the law.
Being an Angel no longer suited Tyrael, his nature was too radical and humane.
With nothing keeping him in his original form his body was able to take the shape of that
which he identified most with.
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