12/24/2013 03:57 PMNot everything I said above is relevant to your point, but I want to point out that many things in existence have order in them inherently. For example, the revolving of the planets around the sun. There is no effort in this system - the Solar System - for this phenomenon to exist. Or the spherical shapes of all the planets as another example. Was any effort put into that? Of course not. Actually, it can be said that the above phenomena occur when the system loses energy and becomes stable. Yet, it is not chaos but order.
Posted by Wesker
I'm sorry, I also thought the topic was dead :P it seems to have resurrected, so...
well, of course the "natural order" is not result of someone trying to keep it, perhaps I oversimplified my explanation and allowed some misinterpretation. but see, the natural order is always the order of minimal energy and maximum entropy, and remember entropy means disorder/chaos (or, in other interpretations, ignorance of how a system works, but this one is irrelevant here).
using the word "effort" may have been a mistake, it suggested a conscious attempt to do something, it's not what I had in mind. I was thinking about energy. you (or nature) need a lot more energy to create a diamond (highly ordered system, very low entropy) than to create graphite (poorly ordered system, high entropy). similarly you'd need a lot more energy to create a non-spherical planet, non-elliptic orbits, etc.
and also such systems only keep going because the environment allows, if these systems are disturbed they just go wild. if a star passes close enough to the sun you can say good bye to the stable orbits of the planets. asteroids big enough shatter a planet to non-spherically-shaped pieces. if the climate suddenly changes mass extinctions happen. if you have a 42ºC fever or a 30ºC hypothermia many intracellular mechanisms that rely on your thermal stability stop functioning and you eventually die. an excited atom naturally goes back to fundamental state. (this last example doesn't even require a disturbance).
the whole point is, if you disturb a system order crumbles while chaos thrives. and if you accept the analogy that angels embody order and demons embody chaos, angels can be easily corrupted while demons can't be easily saved.
12/24/2013 03:57 PMYou can just as much argue that the nature of the Angels in D3 is not brought about by any effort on their part. It's just the way things are. Ithereal and Tyrael say as much too when they comment that Angels have no free will. They cannot change the way they think or their behavior unless a great deal of effort is made. In fact, it requires a significant amount of effort to change themselves or to be changed by outside forces.
Posted by Wesker
This change can come through the effort of self-reflection (Malthael) or it can be forced
actually it is an effort on their part, they keep a complex hierarchy, law system, the whole structure of heaven; one could unarguably say it takes a lot more effort than keeping hell the way it is. just because it's the angel's nature to do things this way doesn't mean they don't spend time, energy and resources to do it.
also, the amount of effort needed to change an angel can be meaningful, but is surely much less than what is needed to change demon. you can break a good person with mere torture, but how can you fix a psychopath?
I also don't entirely buy the "no free will" story. Tyrael chose not to be an angel anymore. I interpret that angels and demons are VERY strongly oriented by their natures, to the point that their actions are almost always possible to foresee (pretty much like animals), but they still have a drop of free will that makes such choices possible. but this part is speculative.