Diablo® III

Goodbye Manticore in ROS

and other slow 2hand bows.

Due to the removal of Life Steal from SP, proc'ing LOH will favor those of high AS weapons.

I've been watching lots of streams lately and I keep asking myself how to incorporate high damage slow hitting bows into certain builds.

Aside from LOH, certain things such as chance of Crushing Blow or "chance to XXX on hit" legendaries procs will favor them fast hitters.

I can image a low-DPS DH betting on a high Crushing blow strikes with insane AS doing a better job surviving / killing XXX million HP mobs/elites.

---

TL:DR

Removing LS from SP killed the Manticore
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Behind his poker face creeps a small smile, twitching at the corner of his mouth... As Impreza calls D3MONs hand his face lights up as he spreads his hand out on the table in front of him!

Behold....

The "FUN CARD" strikeS!
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Hmm not sure tbh. In terms of LoH, certain skills like trail of cinders proc LoH really well and don't scale w/ attack speed.

For crushing blow, it really depends on too many factors. If you can clear the content fast enough, the DH that spec'd for higher DPS will win. If the monster has way too much HP, the crushing blow DH might win instead.

But if you have a team and combine both the DH that spec high DPS and the DH that spec'd for crushing blow, it might be something more epic.
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Its not as if there's gonna be an AH to shop for weaps and gear on ROS(unless they change it)

We're all gonna be playing self-found anyways. So we build upon what we find. I highly doubt any of our existing items are going to make it.

I can't wait to show you again how its really done :P
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get a manticore and then mystic out the poison damage and turn to avg damage (>^^)>
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I WIN! FUN CARD! lol >_<
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11/23/2013 07:29 AMPosted by Crazy
get a manticore and then mystic out the poison damage and turn to avg damage (>^^)>


will not increase the proc rate...

11/23/2013 07:24 AMPosted by VocaloidNyan
But if you have a team and combine both the DH that spec high DPS and the DH that spec'd for crushing blow, it might be something more epic.


I thinking more of solo play

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What i really want to know :

1. If i buy a weapon with LS / Socket now... will the damage rolls be of iLVL70 or same ? (iLVL63) using the Mystic ofcourse.

2. a List of rolls a certain roll can turn into. E.g : Cold resist = Fire res / Light Res/ All Res. More imporantly, what roll can you roll into CD / CC / AS ? If anyone has compiled a list of these stuff it be great.
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2. a List of rolls a certain roll can turn into. E.g : Cold resist = Fire res / Light Res/ All Res. More imporantly, what roll can you roll into CD / CC / AS ? If anyone has compiled a list of these stuff it be great.


Sorry they are busy with boosting their epeen XD

Sadly.. those that really care that much about these stuff aren't streaming.. Or.. they haven't even bothered with it yet. I'm hoping for the latter though.
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Build around LpS that should solve your problem. And we don't even know what is the proc rate on too many skill to conclude slow weapon = bad.

All we know is that our weapon damage is lower than everyone else... And blizz should think about balance damage vs aoe for all the class. The others are doing too much for the aoe they have if you look at us.

CA 6 yards <<< CoB 6 yards
ST 8 yards < HoA 6 yards (smash is 6) << WoL 14 yards

Why do we do less damage?
We are ranged that is why but why have a 100% gap?

--- ---- ---
...OMG
we are really behind in damage...
RoS 2hand crossbow
http://media-titanium.cursecdn.com/attachments/54/955/wojahnni-assaulter.jpg

RoS 2hand weapon
http://media-titanium.cursecdn.com/attachments/54/945/the-sultan-of-blinding-sand.jpg
http://media-titanium.cursecdn.com/attachments/54/936/stalgards-decimator.jpg

Focus on the available roll on each item. And the slower they are the better
http://media-titanium.cursecdn.com/attachments/54/970/schaefers-hammer.jpg

1hand can be just as good as our 2hands
http://media-titanium.cursecdn.com/attachments/54/973/skycutter.jpg
http://media-titanium.cursecdn.com/attachments/54/934/sky-splitter.jpg

edit again:
I think that crossbow has other ranges (It must...) because it has lower damage range than a 1hand bolt pistol. Unless blizz changed them from blizzcon
http://imgur.com/a/kielq#dv3HBth
Edited by KirusAlufras#1739 on 11/23/2013 9:49 AM PST
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11/23/2013 08:26 AMPosted by Impreza
1. If i buy a weapon with LS / Socket now... will the damage rolls be of iLVL70 or same ? (iLVL63) using the Mystic ofcourse.

The Answer to this is NO

I saw Jaetch re-rolling his weapon but even at ilvl70 the range is fixed to ilvl63 (RoS). That maybe because he has already re-rolled it once. The first re-roll he got did increase the weapon dps since RoS has a higher weapon range than us.

2. a List of rolls a certain roll can turn into. E.g : Cold resist = Fire res / Light Res/ All Res. More imporantly, what roll can you roll into CD / CC / AS ? If anyone has compiled a list of these stuff it be great.

Thread
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/10490549784
Link
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/10490549784#7

Just a side note:
Life per Hit can roll on armor pieces like gloves and belt, etc. (don't have the complete list so couldn't add to the OP). btw the new place to stack discipline is on weapon. Armor we need to save them for defense stat such as socket(s), all resist, vit, and dex, etc.
Edited by KirusAlufras#1739 on 11/23/2013 9:01 AM PST
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11/23/2013 06:22 AMPosted by Impreza
and other slow 2hand bows.

Due to the removal of Life Steal from SP, proc'ing LOH will favor those of high AS weapons.

I've been watching lots of streams lately and I keep asking myself how to incorporate high damage slow hitting bows into certain builds.

Aside from LOH, certain things such as chance of Crushing Blow or "chance to XXX on hit" legendaries procs will favor them fast hitters.

I can image a low-DPS DH betting on a high Crushing blow strikes with insane AS doing a better job surviving / killing XXX million HP mobs/elites.

---

TL:DR

Removing LS from SP killed the Manticore


1. Welcome back!

2. I'm a bit disappointed in your post. I wouldn't expect you of all people to make conclusions out of pure speculation without being able to get your hands on it first and actually experiment.

You're going to come up with ways to keep your style/flavor happening in RoS, and I plan on doing the same on my end. If it wasn't for a few DH's wanting and continuing to pioneer the class and go against the norm at the times, we wouldn't have the styles and specs we have now, whether people agree/disagree/pull it off or not.

This fact will not change in RoS. It's very early beta ATM with most streamers that don't have a ton of experience with a DH, so IMO it's pretty moot to make any real conclusions. I'll wait till I can either get my hands on beta, or wait until RoS is released after the multitude of changes that will happen throughout beta and start being creative there.
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11/23/2013 08:43 AMPosted by Chrizzle
Sadly.. those that really care that much about these stuff aren't streaming.. Or.. they haven't even bothered with it yet. I'm hoping for the latter though.


yeah true. most if not all streams are just non stop farming

11/23/2013 08:52 AMPosted by KirusAlufras
..OMG
we are really behind in damage...
RoS 2hand crossbow
http://media-titanium.cursecdn.com/attachments/54/955/wojahnni-assaulter.jpg

RoS 2hand weapon
http://media-titanium.cursecdn.com/attachments/54/945/the-sultan-of-blinding-sand.jpg
http://media-titanium.cursecdn.com/attachments/54/936/stalgards-decimator.jpg


yes wth!

Xbox > 1500 to 1900 APS 1.1
2h sword > 1900 to 2900 APS 1.1

plus we got gimped on the modifiers on skills... just wow

11/23/2013 08:56 AMPosted by KirusAlufras
The Answer to this is NO


thanks.

I assume they created a group of people just to make sure none of the Vanilla items make it to ROS :D

11/23/2013 08:56 AMPosted by KirusAlufras
Thread
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/10490549784
Link
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/10490549784#7


nice. a very good start
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1. Welcome back!

2. I'm a bit


Thanks!

It just feels like bazooka-like DHs are gonna be obsolete. I guess only time will tell.

I can't wait myself! It seems as if playstyle will revolve around lots of CControl. A bit of stun / freeze / slow / kite.. rinse and repeat.. is whats gonna be our game play be about. Not something you're unfamiliar with. Sounds like fun. No pun intended :P
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concerns for 2H gimpage through AS is going to end up in the pile as the one about dual wielders getting 6% leech or combined LoH value.

the limit between 1.6 vs 1.1 approaches a 45% effective difference but this is ONLY achieved at the absolute extremes. Things like proc coef and the fact that a majority of damage comes from strikes this hypothetical 45% lead collapses dramatically. (**no way Bola gets the same crushing% as a single target impale, that's just dumb imba)

besides..
you're be better off starting a fight with high crushing + AS
then at 1/2 way switch back to better pDPS
(we did this all the time in D2, too bad we don't have "w" switch with D3)

any gains in long fights made by 1h are lost in the last 1/2 as the 2H still has better sustain and probably burst
Edited by zoid#1554 on 11/23/2013 10:11 AM PST
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concerns for 2H gimpage through AS is going to end up in the pile as the one about dual wielders getting 6% leech or combined LoH value.

the limit of effect 1.6 vs 1.1 approaches 45% difference and is achieved at extremes. With Proc coef (no way bombardment gets the same crushing odds as a single target impale, that's just dumb imba) and the fact that a majority of damage comes from strikes this hypothetical 45% lead dramatically collapses.


zoid i like you... but you need to speak in english sometimes

Here's my dilema :

2 DH's HP are at half e.g. 25,000 / 50,000

Demon Hunter A with Calamity : shoots 3 balls of lightning at the crowd in X amount of time.

Demon Hunter B with Manticore : shoots 2 balls of lightning at the crowd in X amount of time.

Result :

Calamity hunter heals more from LOH simply because he was able to fire 1 extra ball**

** all things being equal (procs / DPS..etc)
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11/23/2013 10:11 AMPosted by Impreza
concerns for 2H gimpage through AS is going to end up in the pile as the one about dual wielders getting 6% leech or combined LoH value.

the limit of effect 1.6 vs 1.1 approaches 45% difference and is achieved at extremes. With Proc coef (no way bombardment gets the same crushing odds as a single target impale, that's just dumb imba) and the fact that a majority of damage comes from strikes this hypothetical 45% lead dramatically collapses.
Calamity hunter heals more from LOH simply because he was able to fire 1 extra ball**
Concerns about survival (rather than crushing dps) -- i'll point out 1h always could reach survival cliffs sooner (this will still be true in RoS);This is not the whole picture

1000 life returned has a different impact for players with 95% mitigation vs 94%
Once you achieve a symbiotic level between LoH/Mitigation%/HP/Regen(and gameplay style) more is superfluous.

AS helps nudge the LoH portion there a bit sooner, your concern suggests this balance is unobtainable unless we play 1h.
that's hyperbolic.

Monster density (number of strikes) has the most dramatic feedback -- it doesn't cap at the speed difference (1.1 vs 1.6) Keep mobs off hitting 6+ per shot & you don't need much; instead you quickly ceiling full hp. Be it 3.00 aps or 2.00 at this rate of return any 1H advantage is null simply by mob density
Edited by zoid#1554 on 11/23/2013 10:58 AM PST
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11/23/2013 08:56 AMPosted by KirusAlufras
1. If i buy a weapon with LS / Socket now... will the damage rolls be of iLVL70 or same ? (iLVL63) using the Mystic ofcourse.

The Answer to this is NO

I saw Jaetch re-rolling his weapon but even at ilvl70 the range is fixed to ilvl63 (RoS). That maybe because he has already re-rolled it once. The first re-roll he got did increase the weapon dps since RoS has a higher weapon range than us.

It would be nice of someone would be doing a few tests especially regarding rerolling weapon damage and how it is affected by % weapon damage. Let's say you reroll Manticores damage and get 750-950 damage (2 socket, 50% ed). One possibility could be:
(413 + 498) + (750 + 950) *1.5 * 1.22 / 2 = 2389

Damage wise this does not look that good, but compared to just a socketed weapon (aren't too many socket/crit weapons around at the moment) without crit, 100% and 2 125% sockets would be about 45% more damage at 200% crit damage (other gear, base, paragon) and 60% crit chance.

A Manticore like that would do roughly as much damage as a 3450 damage xbow and you'd be able to use it almost right at the beginning.

There might be other quite interesting items. I have a 10% CC, 7% Strafe CC Maras for example. In RoS skills bonuses seem to be damage only (at least what I have seen), so you won't be able to get CC or skill cost reduction. Now an item like a Maras or Skull Grasp that could be enhanced with like 400-500 Dex might even be pretty good later on.
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1. If i buy a weapon with LS / Socket now... will the damage rolls be of iLVL70 or same ? (iLVL63) using the Mystic ofcourse.

The Answer to this is NO

I saw Jaetch re-rolling his weapon but even at ilvl70 the range is fixed to ilvl63 (RoS). That maybe because he has already re-rolled it once. The first re-roll he got did increase the weapon dps since RoS has a higher weapon range than us.



I thought the whole point wasnt to try to reroll the base average damage or damage % modifier but to reroll the elemental damage modifier since those could reroll to ilvl 70 and are where the new items are truly getting the high damage numbers not their base numbers which would help bring the weapoin up a TON but still be slightly behind 150+~ base average damage.

also the base crit dmg + 2 sockets makes a huge difference compared to whats out there right now, the well rerolled manti could hang with the 2.5k+ new gear like nothing due to how gear nowadays lacks crit or sockets lol. That second socket is its saving grace haha

that said though, i dont know why you think slow attack speed would matter for LOH, LOH blows right now its useless, people are sustaining right now with healing vapors and brooding MUCH better. The best healing are the % based ones right now, LOH just doesnt reach high enough levels to compete even with high attack speeds.

As for crushing blow we all know thats getting seriously nerfed lol so i wouldnt worry too much about 2handers to be honest just yet, they do need a higher DPS range though. i think its gonna be Buriza FTW to be honest lol
Edited by METATRON#1945 on 11/23/2013 11:26 AM PST
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http://i.imgur.com/C78zEpD.png
rubied(+160) == 4100 output also has 900 dex and pierce%

lightning on a 50% double rubied(320) manti ((413-498)*.5 + 480+(1936 + 2395)*.5)*1.221
= 3178 dps

even with 75% crit favoring the CHD bonus i'd probably take buriza
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11/23/2013 11:28 AMPosted by zoid
http://i.imgur.com/C78zEpD.png
rubied(+160) == 4100 output also has 900 dex and pierce%

lightning on a 50% double rubied(320) manti ((413-498)*.5 + 480+(1936 + 2395)*.5)*1.221
= 3178 dps

even with 75% crit favoring the CHD bonus i'd probably take buriza


well yea lol im just saying its not as bad as people think and will last them until they find that godly buriza etc. Buriza looks like the best weapon we have due to its pierce.
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