Diablo® III

Goodbye Manticore in ROS

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11/23/2013 10:51 AMPosted by METATRON
I thought the whole point wasnt to try to reroll the base average damage or damage % modifier but to reroll the elemental damage modifier since those could reroll to ilvl 70 and are where the new items are truly getting the high damage numbers not their base numbers which would help bring the weapoin up a TON but still be slightly behind 150+~ base average damage.

You can't re-roll the weapon damage on an item. You can only re-roll

min-max damage

either they are physical (no label) or cold/fire/lightning/etc.

And I think you are missing what Imperza and I was saying. The min-max damage cannot roll up to ilvl70 on our old items. No matter how good of a weapon you get now it is not going to be as good as the new ones.

New weapons do not roll
- CHD
we have up to 100% new ones go up to 35% on specific legendary only
%WD
we have up to 50% new ones go up to 10%

I can understand why the devs are stopping the re-roll since we got 50% any physical weapon will be OP if it can roll
low
1600s-1900s = 1750 x 1.5 = 2625
high 1hand
1700s-2200s = 1950 -> = 2925
high 2hand (xbow - base on archon's buzi and the dmg range I have on file)
1900s-2400s = 2150 -> 3225
high 2hand melee
2400s-2900s = 2400 -> 3600

If I didn't remember it wrong the weapon damage on the sword in Jaetch's stream is
600-900 x1.5 ~> 1125

edit: mystic re-roll
weapon lvl61
range is [530-735]-[635-926] when player is lvl70

source: http://www.twitch.tv/jaetch/b/481641046
time: 06:30
Edited by KirusAlufras#1739 on 11/23/2013 12:40 PM PST
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I guess it needs more tests.

http://bbs.d.163.com/data/attachment/forum/201311/21/1220479uddy9jycz63mmsg.jpg.thumb.jpg

Re-rolled Echoing Fury
+788-944 damage

I am not sure at which level this was re-rolled.

11/23/2013 12:15 PMPosted by KirusAlufras
edit: mystic re-roll
weapon lvl61
range is [530-735]-[635-926] when player is lvl70
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Actually the Manticore idea isn't so bad.

Maybe try to find a Manticore with :

2 sockets
48% + Weapon damage
Dex
95% + CD

Then try to re-roll the Min-Max. (change poison to black)

You'll have more than 300% CD just right there! If you can get it to show more than 2k dps then that'll be something no?!
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11/23/2013 02:51 PMPosted by Impreza

Maybe try to find a Manticore with :

2 sockets
48% + Weapon damage
Dex
95% + CD

Dex should not really matter (Manticores with high %damage, 2 sockets and Dex are quite costly regardless of damage while you could get a low damage int Manticore for a fraction of the price). At 6k+ dex the 170+ dex from Manticore is neglibile. Looking at rerolling costs just get a 2 socket, 45%+ int Manticore. Sadly current streamers just don't seem to be in a testing mood...

€: Looking at the Echoing Fury the new formula for (at least black) damage would be:
Min dam * %dam and max dam * % dam. So a Manticore would get about 2300-2400 damage with similar damage stats and be a weapon comparable to a 3500, 1 socket, no CD weapon.

With 788-994 and 50% ed it should be:
413 + 788 + 498 + 994 * 1.5 * 1.22 = 2464
Which should be close to a 1 socket 3600 crossbow.
Edited by Poekel#2407 on 11/23/2013 4:09 PM PST
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11/23/2013 04:01 PMPosted by Poekel

Maybe try to find a Manticore with :

2 sockets
48% + Weapon damage
Dex
95% + CD

Dex should not really matter (Manticores with high %damage, 2 sockets and Dex are quite costly regardless of damage while you could get a low damage int Manticore for a fraction of the price). At 6k+ dex the 170+ dex from Manticore is neglibile. Looking at rerolling costs just get a 2 socket, 45%+ int Manticore. Sadly current streamers just don't seem to be in a testing mood...


they are more into the o look at me faceroll with crusader rather than test bug theorycraft etc lol...
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Two sockets were never supposed to exist on weapons and that includes Manticores. There is no way the devs will let that bug slip by in the expansion.
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2. I'm a bit disappointed in your post. I wouldn't expect you of all people to make conclusions out of pure speculation without being able to get your hands on it first and actually experiment.


Put your hands up, put, put, put your hands up. Here is a really good answer ↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑.

For those who are calculating w/o stop. I have an advice, you're killing your brain cells before you get the problem to solve.
Edited by Woogmoog#1877 on 11/23/2013 5:11 PM PST
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11/23/2013 04:42 PMPosted by sneakytails
Two sockets were never supposed to exist on weapons and that includes Manticores. There is no way the devs will let that bug slip by in the expansion.

They'll probably fix this bug, but this is more about theocrafting for starting out. You'll probably get better items in RoS but you'll be starting better. Weapon wise rerolled legacy items probably won't be best in slot but they might at least be somewhat competitive and other item types really might be best in slot. If they change the way cold SoJ works but keep the current mechanic for legacy SoJ, current cold SoJ could turn out to be pretty sick especially considiering CtW. Reduced cost on Impale or Chakram could turn out to be very intersting too (looking at Chakram you'd only need two legacy items to get the cost down to 2 or 1).
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I don't see slow weapons making it big in RoS, the monsters are all pretty fast and many charge/stomp on you before you can even blink. Without the snapshot LS and unless you have a tanker or CS monk in your party fast weapons are the way to go. I can see people are trying to sell off the "used to be" top end gear in the AH now in billions but most of it are just sitting there.
Edited by fathom#6674 on 11/23/2013 5:51 PM PST
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11/23/2013 05:50 PMPosted by fathom
I don't see slow weapons making it big in RoS, the monsters are all pretty fast and many charge/stomp on you before you can even blink. Without the snapshot LS and unless you have a tanker or CS monk in your party fast weapons are the way to go. I can see people are trying to sell off the "used to be" top end gear in the AH now in billions but most of it are just sitting there.


I think the a slow Buriza would beg to differ since its pretty devastating due to that beast pierce proc, its like hitting multiple times for one shot lol
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11/23/2013 05:58 PMPosted by METATRON
I don't see slow weapons making it big in RoS, the monsters are all pretty fast and many charge/stomp on you before you can even blink. Without the snapshot LS and unless you have a tanker or CS monk in your party fast weapons are the way to go. I can see people are trying to sell off the "used to be" top end gear in the AH now in billions but most of it are just sitting there.


I think the a slow Buriza would beg to differ since its pretty devastating due to that beast pierce proc, its like hitting multiple times for one shot lol


Hopefully it works, I'm all for more variety but looking at current state crusaders are the way to go for end game :(
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lol well yea blizzard had to give all the quitting noobarians and returning players something OP to come back to haha i didnt expect anything less from blizzard. They are known for doing these things, meanwhile they kind of left our class in the dust lol. Most of our legendaries so far shown are kinda meh, best one ive seen is probably the beckon sail with the 30sec auto SS adnt he calamity which does the same thing just to more enemies now lol

the summon 3 pets at once cloak was nice too until the streamer realized the wolves were dying way to easily -__- lol i have some hope though, it is beta and hopefully blizzard does care about DH's and reads our suggestions but it is a long shot lol
Edited by METATRON#1945 on 11/23/2013 6:29 PM PST
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11/23/2013 07:27 AMPosted by Impreza
I can't wait to show you again how its really done


I don't doubt this at all. Past disagreements aside, I truly believe the creame of the crop will rise to the top regardless. Great players will always find a way.

@Imprezza - I have seen your past builds ( CA - cluster bomb / BL builds ) showcase your imagination. You have been stuck in the RF runt recently. RoS is a nice RESET, wouldn't you agree?
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Back to original topic " Manticore / crossbow " less desired in RoS may not be true. It does seem that high AoE skills can have higher proc. rates making low APS builds viable.

What maybe dead for sure is DH tank builds. Even Barbs and Monks have a harder time tanking at the moment. We will see it all play out as we get more and more gear of course.
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DH tank builds that used %LS will be dead, at least at the higher character levels they will be.

Brooding looks like its coming into its own now, and with the really big vitality rolls we are seeing on items it becomes even more powerful.

http://media-titanium.cursecdn.com/attachments/54/979/boots-of-disregard.jpg

Those boots look pretty good for some DH tanks. My life regeneration themed tank would love those for sure. The modifier really fits her movement profile, I still foresee some tactical movement but at key times when the mitigation is overwhelmed.

I think for tanking its going to be about stacking mitigation in layers and then playing off the legendary affixes and your skill choices. Elemental damage will be the real killer, tanks will have to kite that stuff on the micro level, not nearly as much as ranged but enough to keep strategy in tanking. Armour, resistances, damage reduction modifiers and skills, and a nice life pool should all be considered now, instead of just damage and LS%. Its a very good thing for tanks and this game.

Stacking EHP should mean something, even on the high difficulties, its should gain you something tangible for lost DPS. That's tanking to me, its never been just relying on a certain modifier and just standing there spamming. So if that type of tank is dead then I say good riddance.
Edited by sneakytails#1320 on 11/25/2013 2:06 PM PST
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Good riddance! the days of holding down right click and winning are over, a good thing really lol no class should be able to do that, it takes away from the player engagement and planning. it makes the game trivial and boring actually lol *cough WW barb
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yes wth!Xbox > 1500 to 1900 APS 1.12h sword > 1900 to 2900 APS 1.1plus we got gimped on the modifiers on skills... just wow
But we got quivers. How other classes roll with a Skorn and off hand? Xbow currently come with 10CC, 20AS, 600 stat (combo dex/vit), and skill bonus.

Edit: and hatred regen!
Edited by Rav1n#1381 on 11/25/2013 8:03 PM PST
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But we got quivers. How other classes roll with a Skorn and off hand? Xbow currently come with 10CC, 20AS, 600 stat (combo dex/vit), and skill bonus.

You really missed the new stuff. Let me ignore weapon base damage. If you hate number stop your read here...

2hand + shield = crusader
1595-2906 mmd
1125-1460 core attribute
2816-4224 shield block (100% added to weapon damage with skill)
+10% cc
750-975 core attribute (shield)

1hand + source = wiz and witch doc
1595-2422 mmd
750-975 core attribute
635-949 mmd (highest I see so far - not exact data)
+10% cc
750-975 core attribute (source)

ex-2hand + quiver = dh
1595-2422 mmd
750-975 core attribute
+20% aps
+10% cc
750-975 core attribute (quiver)

1hand (bolt pistol) + quiver
1595-2422 mmd
750-975 core attribute
+20% aps
+10% cc
750-975 core attribute (quiver)
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11/25/2013 08:49 PMPosted by KirusAlufras
If you hate number stop your read here...
LMAO I love math. Looking at those numbers, yea- it is silly that our 2H and 1H weapons roll the same MMD. That needs to be adjusted, and not by nerfing hand crossbow MMD. Should our weapons roll higher? yes, but not quite as high as weapons that are not DH specific.
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Well the number are the same in the current game

2hand, 1hand
286-667 mmd (286+381=667)
286-667 fire/cold/etc.

basically all the damage range is the same outside of base weapon range. In RoS 2hand melee are the only weapon with a different range, a even larger one... (maybe that was the plan, make crusader...)

Looking at these two 2hand weapons
http://media-titanium.cursecdn.com/attachments/54/987/soulsmasher.jpg
http://media-titanium.cursecdn.com/attachments/54/980/burst-of-wrath.jpg

Base damage various by a lot.

But even if the base weapon range on a crossbow is high we are still behind...

Take this and work backward
http://media-titanium.cursecdn.com/attachments/54/955/wojahnni-assaulter.jpg
2993-3650 - (1701-2078) = 1292-1572
assume base + max roll
= 1292-1572 + (1914-2422) = 3206-3994 > 3600x1.1 = 3960 dps

1hand bolt pistol range is even lower > 130-738

btw this weapon has the same aps as crossbow
http://media-titanium.cursecdn.com/attachments/54/936/stalgards-decimator.jpg
3500-4642 - (2327-2887) = 1173-1755
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