Diablo® III

Survival Bonuses should be in D3

I agree with most that death penalties aren't the way to go in D3. This would only encourage people to play it safe to maximize their paragon leveling. Sure it worked in D2, but when you have 100s of paragon levels, xp loss to lag or disconnect would be devastating.

Instead, I would like to see a survival bonus loosely based on the survival bonus stat from sacred 2: fallen angel. These bonuses could be based on challenge level (survival bonus increase could equal number of monsters killed x torment level and elites/champions/bosses should give a sizeable boost to this as well).

This bonus would give:

+% of all stats
+% armor and all resist
+% life
+% health regen and life on hit/life after kill
+% max resource and resource regeneration
+% gold find, magic find and exp gain

In Sacred2, it would take weeks of gameplay to build up a decent survival bonus, but it was well worth it in the end and severely discouraged sloppy gameplay and gearing. I remember having a temple guardian who had, after months of not dying, a 72% survival bonus (increasing all my stats by 72%), and then I died. Essentially lost almost half of my power.

Here are some positive effects I can see this having on gameplay:

This would make gear important, but would allow character progression that wasn't dependent on gear alone so long as they didn't die.

It would encourage balancing between offensive and defensive gearing/building.

It would encourage players to play in a difficulty setting that is manageable yet challenging.

It would discourage players from trying to leech on higher difficulty settings.

It would make mindless botting even less appealing.

Players who want to play glass cannon will be rewarded for playing well or hindered by sloppy gameplay.
Edited by MadMyke#1785 on 12/2/2013 2:52 AM PST
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12/02/2013 02:49 AMPosted by MadMyke
It would make mindless botting even less appealing.


Actually, it kinda sounds like it would encourage botting on low MP levels to grind up lots of bonuses. :/

I'd prefer a reward system like this to a punishment system like exp loss on death, but I'm not really convinced that either feature is really an improvement to the game. Whether a reward for surviving or a punishment for dying, the end result is basically the same: making death suck more. And the more death sucks, the fewer risks players are going to take.
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12/02/2013 03:47 AMPosted by WDrSharkon
Actually, it kinda sounds like it would encourage botting on low MP levels to grind up lots of bonuses. :/


That's why it needs to be balanced so characters will get a much lower rate of bonus increase for doing low mp than higher mp. And botting will only work if that player (running on a script) doesn't die. That seems unlikely :D
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That's why it needs to be balanced so characters will get a much lower rate of bonus increase for doing low mp than higher mp. And botting will only work if that player (running on a script) doesn't die. That seems unlikely :D


Eh, I don't know enough about botting to really argue any further, but my main point stands.

What if there were a game option that increased the amount of magic/gold/exp gained from NV stacks by, say, 5% per stack, in exchange for losing all your NV stacks any time you die? Or allowed your NV to stack higher, up to, say, 10 stacks? I realize that's not nearly as extensive as what you're suggesting here, but it would certainly be a lot easier to implement, accomplishes basically the same goal, and gives players a choice. It could be a check box next to the MP setting on the act select window.
Edited by WDrSharkon#1325 on 12/2/2013 4:34 AM PST
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I'd like a survival bonus.
Better than a deathpenalty.
But I'm uncertain if it would be good to have it carry over games.
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12/02/2013 04:32 AMPosted by WDrSharkon
That's why it needs to be balanced so characters will get a much lower rate of bonus increase for doing low mp than higher mp. And botting will only work if that player (running on a script) doesn't die. That seems unlikely :D


Eh, I don't know enough about botting to really argue any further, but my main point stands.

What if there were a game option that increased the amount of magic/gold/exp gained from NV stacks by, say, 5% per stack, in exchange for losing all your NV stacks any time you die? Or allowed your NV to stack higher, up to, say, 10 stacks? I realize that's not nearly as extensive as what you're suggesting here, but it would certainly be a lot easier to implement, accomplishes basically the same goal, and gives players a choice. It could be a check box next to the MP setting on the act select window.


NV is being removed for RoS, so that's not really an option. ANd my solution also adds stat bonuses as a survival bonus, making characters not just mannequins wearing their power on their sleeves.

An in-depth survival bonus can accomplish many things that people have complained about since day1.
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12/02/2013 04:37 AMPosted by MadMyke
mannequins wearing their power on their sleeves.


I don't really understand the arguments as to why this is a problem in the first place. Diablo is all about the loot hunt. Why wouldn't we expect loot to be the most potent aspect of empowering our characters? If gear is secondary to a character's raw stats, the loot hunt, the whole point of the game, starts losing its appeal.

But whatever, that's another topic. I still go back to my original point: no matter whether it's punishing death or rewarding survival, the result is the same: discouraging risk taking. So what's the benefit of making death suck more that outweighs this?
Edited by WDrSharkon#1325 on 12/2/2013 4:47 AM PST
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I really like the Survival Bonus in Sacred 2, and your idea sounds enjoyable too.

However, while it took ages to get high survival bonus in Sacred 2, that game was also ridiculously easy to survive in.
It seems fair enough that if Diablo 3 RoS is (hopefully) more difficult, then it is also fine if it takes less time to build up the survival bonus.

Also, while I STRONGLY support a survival bonus in D3, the bonus should not be so strong that tank-mode becomes the only way to play. Then we have really achieved nothing over what we have now, where glass-cannon is the only effective way to play.

In any case,this game would benefit greatly from a survival bonus.
Edited by Shadout#2849 on 12/2/2013 10:31 AM PST
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12/02/2013 04:46 AMPosted by WDrSharkon
I don't really understand the arguments as to why this is a problem in the first place. Diablo is all about the loot hunt. Why wouldn't we expect loot to be the most potent aspect of empowering our characters? If gear is secondary to a character's raw stats, the loot hunt, the whole point of the game, starts losing its appeal.


I will break this down into 3 different parts:

1. We do not want 'player power>gear power' ... we simply want gear to not be the only source of power. While paragon points seem to be headed in this direction, it would take 200 paragon levels just to get 250 points of main stat, 1/4 or less of what exists on a single piece of armor. They are supposed to feel like heroes, not grubs in mech suits.

2. I have met plenty of people with higher paragon characters who have had terrible luck with itemization. While itemization will be revamped in loot 2.0, let's face it ... some people just have crappy luck. Having alternate sources of power outside of completely randomized rolls would give players with abysmal luck the opportunity to still have a sense of character progression.

3. Having 99% of your power exist as completely gear dependent means once you start to hit that brick wall for gearing, your character will become stagnant for long periods of time (between gear upgrades). 5 points of main stat every once in a while will take months to be anything of significance. If a character possesses good gear balancing, a survival bonus will allow that player to still feel a sense of character progression during long intervals of inadequate gear drops.

A new thread could be started on the topic, but I am sure 100s already exist. Survival Bonuses seem to be a good way to add more variety and balancing to the game.
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12/02/2013 10:26 AMPosted by Shadout
Also, while I STRONGLY support a survival bonus in D3, the bonus should not be so strong that tank-mode becomes the only way to play.


A Survival Bonus, coupled with the new difficulties' loot tables, means that anyone who simply gears for tankiness without regard to damage output will have lower benefits than well rounded characters. I don't think that survival bonuses should provide a bulk of the player's power, but putting major restrictions on Survival Bonuses would result in the continuation of the current trend of glass cannon gameplay.

They could even put in insane modes where a character should have top tier gear, solid build and gear synergies and a high survival bonus to even be able to compete in these modes. A place where only the most stalwart of heroes dares to venture. And if you die, back to easy mode for survival building :D
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I disagree. Surviving should be the point and what you gain while alive is the point of the game...death should be feared and you should regret it. I'm not saying go as extreme as the way I play(hardcore)...but it's already impossible to lose on SC as is. It's amazing to me...so many people want to play a "Glass Cannon" but it seems that they also expect to not die anymore...if they do die, they expect a meaningless death. Before I go on to much of a rant...No to the survival bonus and yes to a meaningful death penalty.

If you want to reach a compromise....have it be like this!

MP0-5 = Current death penalty
MP6-8 = 5% EXP loss
MP9 = 10% EXP loss
MP10 = 15% EXP loss
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Do you really see any difference between a survival bonus and a death penalty though?

If you lose 15% exp on death, is that so different than getting XP equally slower for some time after dying (resulting in the same amount of XP lost over time) because you lost your survival bonus buff?

Imo, if a survival bonus is easier for the masses to accept, then we who prefer death penalties, should be more than fine with a reasonably designed survival bonus too.

12/02/2013 11:05 AMPosted by MadMyke
They could even put in insane modes where a character should have top tier gear, solid build and gear synergies and a high survival bonus to even be able to compete in these modes. A place where only the most stalwart of heroes dares to venture. And if you die, back to easy mode for survival building :D

That would make it more like Sacred 2 as well.
Since in S2 Survival bonus both gave you bonuses, but it also increased the monster lvls (since that game had auto-scaling like D3 will have in RoS).
Kinda like getting access to higher MPs with higher survival bonus.

Of course in Sacred, you were pretty much forced into higher monster lvls the more you survived, since it scaled automaitcally. That is probably too harsh for Diablo 3 :)
Edited by Shadout#2849 on 12/2/2013 11:16 AM PST
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12/02/2013 11:12 AMPosted by Shadout
Do you really see any difference between a survival bonus and a death penalty though?

If you lose 15% exp on death, is that so different than getting XP equally slower for some time after dying (resulting in the same amount of XP lost over time) because you lost your survival bonus buff?

Imo, if a survival bonus is easier for the masses to accept, then we who prefer death penalties, should be more than fine with a reasonably designed survival bonus too.


An XP loss on death at really high paragon means going back days worth of progress ... losing a survival bonus means slower progression while it builds back up. An XP penalty on death reminds me too much of that time my friend tripped over my PSone cord and I lost 7 hours of Final Fantasy 7 progression. You want me to strangle somebody? Give me an XP penalty on death and a serious lag spike.
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I agree there is a difference in how a penalty and a bonus are perceived. Hence why a bonus is easier to accept for many people, and should be the preferred solution here.

But in the end, when you look at "time spent", then there should not really be any difference between a bonus and a equally designed penalty.
So I don't see why people who want a death penalty, wouldn't be equally happy with a survival bonus.
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^^^ Well stated and I wholeheartedly agree. Developers have stated on numerous occasions they don't want DPS to be the only stat, but everything they have done so far in RoS seems to be perpetuating the problem.
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12/02/2013 11:12 AMPosted by Shadout
Do you really see any difference between a survival bonus and a death penalty though?

If you lose 15% exp on death, is that so different than getting XP equally slower for some time after dying (resulting in the same amount of XP lost over time) because you lost your survival bonus buff?

Imo, if a survival bonus is easier for the masses to accept, then we who prefer death penalties, should be more than fine with a reasonably designed survival bonus too.


1) I don't believe the masses always know what is best. Many old Nintendo/Sega games were extremely frustrating but the reward for success was only enhanced because of how punishing defeat was. Again, not that I believe every game should be like this.....The trend to date seems to be following the lines of "No Child Left Behind"...little johnny can't fail regardless of if he deserves it!

2) They are psychologically different...both reward different aspects...I'm not gonna bother going into that much detail here...I personally think that a death penalty is more rewarding in the long run.
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Maybe a survival bonus will appease both sides of the argument. Right now, people are penalized for being well rounded and rewarded for being DPS junkies. How can someone say they want it to be less about DPS if making it all about DPS is the most rewarding scenario?
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12/02/2013 11:32 AMPosted by Utukka
2) They are psychologically different...both reward different aspects...I'm not gonna bother going into that much detail here...I personally think that a death penalty is more rewarding in the long run.


If you want to bring psychology into the topic, please do some research on positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement. Everything psychology has learned in the past 50 years makes the second part of your statement contradictory.
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12/02/2013 11:32 AMPosted by Utukka
1) I don't believe the masses always know what is best.

Oh, they most certainly do not imo.
Blizzard cares a lot about the masses though, so a survival bonus is incredibly more likely to be implemented than a death penalty.
There is no good reason why the people who want death to have more meaning should be split on such a "minor" (in the case of this game) issue as the semantics and psychology of bonuses vs penalties.
Edited by Shadout#2849 on 12/2/2013 11:38 AM PST
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Am I the only one that prefers a death penalty to a survival bonus? How far have gone that we need to add bonuses just for playing the game?

We are playing Diablo people come on, we fought through the Lords of Hell and are now fighting the Lord of Death himself Malthael......and you guys want a bonus just for surviving?
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