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We've known each other awhile, as you know my friend, I am a self found player, and imo, the only thing I gained from not spending a single cent on my WD is some rudimentary version of pride. Sadly, that pride didn't last long. From personal experience, the only thing that always got on my nerves was I felt like I can never be in the top 20 WD players not because of lack of game skills, but because I just couldn't keep up with players that do have that extra cheddar to spend on their toons.
With all that said, I too am baffled at other self found players that are so supportive about this BoA/no trading s*** Blizz is trying to push; as this, as you said, doesn't really have anything to do with how the game is enjoyed and played. To me expecting to have an EASIER time building my toon with a self found approach is just silly. So I just accepted the fact that if I were to play self found, having a harder time building my toon is just something I will have to deal with due to how D3 was put together.
Even with the issue I stated above, I still enjoyed D3, but that might have been more because of the community and the friends I found and rolled with. I guess some self found players just hate the fact that if they want to keep playing self found (or have no choice but to play self found) they actually have to work harder than other players that can afford to spend rl money on a game. Ultimately, I say some self found players just want everyone else to have just as hard a time as they're having building their toons.
As a self found player, I don't care how hard it is to build my toon. If I have to do extra things than the next D3 player to build my toon so be it. All I really want is if I were to put in more in game work to build the gears for my toon, I want my experience and skills to also factor in. If RoS can achieve a gameplay where game skills is equally important to gear, then in my book, we have a winner. Sadly though, I've yet to read anything on RoS that addresses this. Just my 2 cents.
Edited by LordAmsa#1453 on 11/30/2013 12:00 PM PST
My words pretty much verbatim.
I dont think it is that self found players want everybody to play their way. I was completely self found in D2, but I only played single player offline. I read forum posts about people trading and buying gear from D2jsp and thought about doing that myself. I never had to though because I put alot of time into the game and was rewarded for my time.
I dont think a self found player cares at all if I or anybody else spent hundreds, or even thousands on their gear as long as they have a decent chance to find something good after putting in the time. I really hoped to avoid the AH, but early on I could see the way to get gear was not going to come by actually killing monsters. I have played since launch, and yes I know there are many people with way more kills than me and all that, but I have yet to find a single well rolled item. A single one.
I am not very happy with the BoA idea at all. It does not fit with D3 and there is no doubt in my mind it is because these developers are WoW influenced. I dont know much about WoW, but a quick look at a few profiles and I see there what is going on with the RoS items. BoA and all these inflated numbers with some added effect or skill cooldown.
About the only thing I can relate to with Athene is that I grew up on D1 and D2. D2 had a very solid crafting system in runewords. Everything about them leads to playing the game more to find Runes, white/ethereal items, and crafting supplies to roll for sockets. The Uniques/Sets were good enough on their own so that if you found one there was a good chance you could use it. Then there were charms and jewels. I could always count on finding something usable for the time I put in.
BoA in a nutshell
You might wana read that thread. This is explained in depth in there. But basically when you make something less accessible (by cutting off access through trade) you can simultaneously increase its power and increase its drop rate so that it can be found if you play enough but not so abundant as to feel trivial.
2. I guess
Yeah! And this is a core element in the Diablo series that's why Devs are giving it more importance than trading.
3. How does this encourage group play if items are BOA? Well thats the thing , why cant we trade with players in group?..if they are to enforce the BOA rule then extend it to "one" trade, then it binds to the player traded to.
You can trade with players who you are playing with. We can make a game together and play, and as we find stuff we can trade it.
Many people care. Competition is the re-playability and endgame bro, and it can only happen in a environment where you can't Pay2Win. Many people who want to compete in P2W environment cannot do so.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-kMARQUHZ4 - Shinobi's views
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cwHPL1tZzw - Moldran's views
This is a huge part of the game, I am surprised you are even questioning this BTW.
The point of Ladders in D2 was this. Once people acquire the gg gear in the 400+ hours you mention below, the whole game is reset so the competition begins again. But at the core of that is point 4.
I said Collector's end game, which begins precisely at this point you highlight. When the normal end game ends, the collector's endgame, ie one who collects all the Legendaries in the game, completes all teh sets, his endgame begins. This is his time.
Edited by JangBahadur#1968 on 11/30/2013 2:50 PM PST
Watched Moldrans take, who I have respect for BTW.
First time I've seen this.
Now, he mentions that perhaps Blizz will implement a longer trade timer if the friends you have are on one of the group members friend list...now this I can get behind.
The 2 hr window for trade amongst party members, if it sticks, It can be something I can accept as a well.
I support group play and know the benefit of this for many reasons, If Blizz were to implement something like this, I'm all for it then.
Ladders is another story for me, I have no interest in starting over and over again just to race with others. This is not an end game to me
The interest I have is that the game is kept fresh and new, i.e frequent game updates
Edited by REAPER666#1553 on 11/30/2013 4:12 PM PST
Amen, sure add ladders and let the internet epeen warriors duke it out....but lets not let that be considered "End Game." If you have any sort of life outside this game you won't be able to keep up with the kids with no jobs, wife, or kids of their own.
I am a fan boy? I make you sick? I am arrogant and idiotic?
Are we in general chat? I thought this was an "Intelligent" forum.
BoA in a nutshell
On this point in D2, after I explored enough 'end-game' builds for all classes, all I did was start self found hardcore characters with my friends/acquaintances online.
At some point they'd die or I'd try another class that wasn't a summoning necromancer.
It's different in D3 because a living character can play any 'build' on one class.
Edited by MCP#1477 on 11/30/2013 9:37 PM PST
I've been watching Moldran's stream for quite sometime and although he plays a barb I do enjoy and agree with most of the things he says *BUT* with the exception of this video here in regards to BoA items and the AH. The problem that most ppl who are for the BoA items is that players are going to hit a loot wall in a very short period of time.
I'm estimating within 2-3 months of farming give or take depending on how blizzard scales the loot drops. Once a player starts to hit that loot wall they are going to feel unrewarded by playing self found only because as they progress getting those so called epic items will become more and more rare meaning they won't be getting upgrades once a week or even once a month. So the real question is how long is a player willing to keep grinding D3 while they do not receive an upgrade before they loose faith and interest and quit the game?
And my answer is, look at the small amount of players still playing D3 console. That lasted like a whole 2-3 weeks then everyone quit.
Now for those who wish to play multiple classes they will probably keep playing past the 2-3 month period because they will hit a wall and move on to the next toon or they will grind on several characters at once thus stretching out the loot wall to say 6 months or more depending on how many classes they choose to gear out.
I personally am mainly interested in playing my WD and maybe my Monk again but as I've said in other posts that if I'm not able to acquire the gear necessary to advance in D3 within the 2-3 month period I will be leaving the game and blizzard has yet again lost another paying customer.
Don't get me wrong about the gear and loot I am not expecting to be geared out in 2-3 months to be able to farm Torment VI. Personally I would prefer that it takes me perhaps 6-8 months or more of serious grinding before I or anyone for that matter is able to farm such a high lvl of the game. The fact that I was able to farm MP10 within a month of its release was horrible and should not have happened imo.
I do not consider my self a credit card warrior but I have no shame in admitting that I have spent real cash on buying some of the items I have for my toon. Example: I spent a total of 3 solid months crafting gloves just about every day and I calculated that I crafted about 8000 pairs of gloves. Not a single pair of gloves ever rolled trifecta so I lost patience and shelled out the coin to buy some trifecta gloves from another player.
Yes I spent a lot on the gloves but they were exactly what I was looking for that the game did not give me in the fair amount of time and work that I felt I put in. Sure perhaps I should not have gotten a crafted trifecta like the ones I have now but at least some sort of trifecta to give me hope that the one I was looking for was actually some day going to come. After 3 months of crafting and 8000 crafts I pretty much knew I was wasting my time.
Now to some ppl they may feel that 3 months or 8000 crafts is not enough time put in but tbh it's all a matter of opinion and when I'm putting in my time and hard work the only opinion that matters is my own. The problem with D3 was never the AH for those delusional enough to believe that. The problem was the horrible RNG and loot system of the game. If the loot system and loot was as what is coming in Loot 2.0 then no one would be bi tching or against the AH. The reason I am against the BoA of items and AH closure isn't because I want to Pay2Win its because I want to keep my *options* open for advancement and testing in the game.
For those of you who know me they know I like to experiment a lot with my build and having the luxury of the AH allowed me to test and experiment with various builds. The way I see the removal of the AH and BoA items is a step backwards not forwards because we will be very limited with our options.
Furthermore Moldran finally told me the ugly truth that the rest of the self founders don't want seem to want to admit to and that is if you group with someone who has epic gear than you because they are Pay2Win that you feel inferior.
Well the truth is life isn't fair and as we all know blizzard has never been a game company to make their games fair just look at World of Warcraft. If i group with someone who has better gear than me I don't QQ about it like the self founders, sure I may be envious but I'm not going to hate on that player or feel that I should enforce my play style of self found on them just because I don't want them to advance any other way than self found only.
Players in D3 should be able to advance in the game in any way they see fit provided they are not exploiting, end of story.
/agree with Athene
Edited by heyguyslol#1302 on 11/30/2013 11:23 PM PST
I actually haven't played due to other problems such as the game reverting back to an old save or the fact that it was difficult to find people to play with....not the loot. The loot was amazing.
Also the fact that most people I play with play on PC. It was a nice change of pace but console is not for me.
Edited by rockon87#1616 on 11/30/2013 11:35 PM PST
Yep two wrongs don't make a right. Bots and Dupers have been a problem since the launch of D3, I knew it was going to exist but by Blizzard making everything BoA thus eliminating Bots and other exploiters this does not make the game right or good. The only good thing I can think of out of this change to the game is we wont need to use our authenticators anymore because no one will be hacking accounts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cwHPL1tZzw - Moldran's views
Ok so let see if I can sum up your points in a few sentences (in quotes).
Well we don't know how fast it will be. The beta is not a good indication of this. But there are system in the game that carry on even if loot hunt comes to a halt. There is Enchanting, Crafting, Gambling and Paragon. You can see how Paragon makes progression continue after those 3 months. I will talk about the others in the next section.
There can also be a collector's endgame but currently with the limited stash space it's not possible. This is why I made this thread:http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/10702890258
And entire overhaul of the stash system so that it not only fulfills its function well but also promotes a collector's endgame.
2. AH in Vanilla solved the problem of RNG, and bad drops/crafts.
Enchanting, Crafting and Smart Drops will solve the problem of RNG in RoS. The RNG itself was improved by lowering the affix ranges, so the items don't roll offensive stats. Smart Drops means that there will be a chance that the game will cater an item towards your class. From what I have heard this will apply to crafted items as well.
The Crafting System is now less of a gamble. You now need more materials for a chance at better items. White items now have a purpose and certain white items are needed to create Legendaries. And Gambling was removed from the Crafting system and was made into its own thing. Right now Crafting = Gambling, in RoS, these are two separate systems. The strength of one was the weakness of the other one, so I think this was a good change!!
And then there is Enchanting, where you can take your gear and constantly tweak the values on it to make it better using the items you find.
Progression through these systems requires that you play the game and collect the right materials, and I think is a huge improvement over the AH.
3. Trying new builds is fun and you had all the items at your disposal for testing through the AH
This is something that I loved doing on vanilla! In fact, the endgame for me was all about trying new builds. We differ in that I didn't spend real money on the game.
And I gotta say Loot 2.0 just makes that a lot more fun! Yes BoA means you are limited to the gear you find and yeah you are not going to be able to buy your way through all the builds but hey, it's a trade off.
Like I said earlier:
basically when you make something less accessible (by cutting off access through trade) you can simultaneously increase its power and increase its drop rate so that it can be found if you play enough but not so abundant as to feel trivial.
From Zed#1489 (http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/10490929408)
We all want our characters to feel unique, and making legendaries soulbound on pick up proliferates this.If legendaries are used to open up new builds, then when you are using that new build because you actually found that legendary then in a way that build becomes inherently unique to your character. Your friends can't just trade for the item and use that build within the hour. If they want that build they have to put in the work and find that item themselves.
So yeah I really don't mind this trade off despite the fact that I love trying new builds.
4. Life is unfair
Yeah it can be.
Edited by JangBahadur#1968 on 12/1/2013 6:12 PM PST
Mark my words pal, the BOA debate, AH closure, loot drops should be the least of our concerns.
2 weeks after beta..how many are still streaming? one, two a few?
Like I said before, you will do rifts, bounties, run one additional act, level up one more toon... etc etc...then what?
After 2 weeks, streamers seem to be bored already, this is a real problem that needs to be addressed.
More meaningful content must be in place for ROS to ensure longevity of play..
I appreciate the concept of ROS, however what will keep us running?
Content MUST be updated on a frequent basis
Edit: Blizz... huge fan guys, I will go down dying to support your games.
Thats why im so passionate about this, ROS is good, but is it GREAT?
I'm not a game designer, but the changes (beyond static) in environments, challenges in game, monster variations, map variations, reward variations, new toons will in turn help this game "live long and prosper".
Edited by REAPER666#1553 on 12/1/2013 8:56 PM PST
Yeah i know but you asked me to give reasons lol.
Twitch is a bad indication of how good the game is. Like I LOVE the game so far and even I am now bored of watching streams. I just wana play it!
Krip just abused bugged mechanics and when they were fixed, declared that the game has no build diveristy and moved on. Archon and Moldran seem busy with personal lives. Kongor got mad cuz people pushed his buttons. But everyone else is still streaming, Modz, Rankil, Ziss, Hana, bunch of European people, etc. They are not as famous as the above 4 but they are still playing.
Rankil was very cooperative. We told him to test some WD stuff and he did it immediately. Very helpful.
Ps over here in Diablo world we call them Chars not Toons. :P
Edited by JangBahadur#1968 on 12/1/2013 9:18 PM PST
yeah dont get me wrong bud, I appreciate your feedback...and you provided your reasons for believing what you believe.
oh funny, Reaps has only been a Diablo player...I've always called them toons
never played WOW or other blizz games :P
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