Diablo® III

SF's rant about breakpoints

No, not at all the whining over RoS.

I'm getting annoyed at the influx of dual wield barbs that have their breakpoint optimization completely messed up.

It's practically an epidemic. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Nived and PhatPho's old threads going over the basics haven't seen much light of day lately, and we're getting a lot of people from other classes looking for quick paragons.

I cringe every time I see barbs built on obviously high budgets make really fundamental mistakes. First I think to myself, oh, another sheet DPS chaser, but now it's crossing my mind that they just don't know any better, because I swear that 90% of the dual wield barbs I see these days are geared like this.

Here are some of the main offenses.

-If you are using an axe and don't know what you're doing, chances are you're doing it wrong.
-If you are using more than one out of the following, you're probably doing it wrong; lacunis, inna's, tal's chest, witching hour
-If more than 4 pieces of your gear have an IAS mod on them, chances are you're doing it wrong. Count them.
-If your echoing fury is in your mainhand, chances are you're doing it wrong.
-If war cry shows up on your skill bar, you're doing it wrong.*
-If bash shows up on your skill bar, you're also likely doing it wrong.*

*unless you're in hardcore

There are exceptions to every rule, but the bottom line is that you don't want to be wasting any IAS. Worse still, is wasting an entire slot or even two. Whirlwind and sprint have breakpoints, and they're far apart from each other. The 3 most common ones are 2.5, 2.86 and 3.33. Wide gap between each of them.You don't want to be in some messy grey area like 2.7 aps with any of your weapons. If you are, much of your IAS is completely useless. Those affixes could have been used for something contributing real damage, like strength, crit damage or +damage instead. The worst is doing something like using inna's for a wasted IAS slot because then you've just gimped yourself out of strength, vit and ar together. Bad.

Axes are not always bad, but if you don't know what you're doing, they will gimp your damage heavily versus a mace. To put it simply, the echoing fury is a mace. If you use a rare mace (without any IAS mods on the weapon) with the echoing fury, they will swing at the same speed. If you use an axe, it can swing faster. A 1.3 APS axe equipped with a 1.45 EF will put the EF at 1.6 APS with no buffs and no IAS, and the axe at 1.7 APS.

What this means is that you have to have the axe and the EF at different breakpoints to take advantage of the axe's higher attack speed. If you don't, the axe will just be a weaker-hitting version of a mace, which is what nearly every barb using an axe ends up doing.

Why I can guess that a barb using an axe is put together badly 99% of the time without even taking a close look at the gear is because there's really only one good way to use one, and that's with 5 slots of exactly 9% IAS with a +.25 EF. No 8%'s anywhere, no +.24's. 6 slots of IAS can be tolerable if they're done right, but cramming that many slots in without making major sacrifices elsewhere is virtually impossible.

Don't use an axe unless you know what you're doing. Just go with a mace to make your life easy. Look at the weapon damage range, don't let the weapon DPS of the axe fool you.

Mainhand EF, almost always bad but BigBaller & co will throw a tantrum at me for saying it. Obvious reason is that there's tons of fear. Bad. More subtle reason is that rend resets tornado tick frequency to the mainhand frequency. With EF mainhand setups, the offhand will be either a sword or dagger, and they will swing faster than the EF. By resetting to the mainhand frequency, you're not taking advantage of the high attack speed of the sword/dagger, and you're getting no benefit at all from them and are additionally suffering from the relatively low damage range of most EF's when compared to most maces. If you're not using rend, it'll be somewhat unpredictable how fast you're swinging, which isn't really a good thing either.

tl;dr

If you don't want to be fussed with a lot of effort and cost in optimizing a barb properly, get a mace, an EF with +.24 aps or higher, and 4 slots of 8%+ IAS. The really cookie cutter setup we used to beat into peoples' heads in the old days. If you want to go beyond that, take a lot of care with selecting how much IAS you're getting and where you're putting it. And use d3rawr's tdps calculator while planning.
Edited by silverfire#1855 on 12/29/2013 8:46 AM PST
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+1 , These guys should do it right while they got the chance, before the death of the present cookie cutter.
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Yeah, around 4 months from now, none of this will matter much. Breakpoints will still matter but without AH it'll be a lot harder to control your gearing path.
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https://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7591980848
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I completely gave up trying to help people with this in the numerous 'Rate the barb above' threads. I seen one guy.... Billions in gear... Some really nice stuff teeming rugged ect and he was over by something crazy 3 full slots if I remember correctly. Didn't wanna listen, could of went up half a million tdps pretty easy but just wouldn't listen.

I may not be super skilled or super mechanically inclined but I sure as hell can work d3rawr lol.

I'm just gonna stand to the side and flex my smooth 2.86/2.5 split anyone wanna join?
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hrmmm. my barb is almost two weeks old. i hope i did it right =/
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12/18/2013 11:58 AMPosted by Aelfin
hrmmm. my barb is almost two weeks old. i hope i did it right =/


If I counted your IAS correctly, you are 11 IAS shy of the 2.86 BP. So if you want to hit that BP than get 11 IAS, if not than you need to ditch the axe :) Simply just switching that to a rare 1.2 APS mace puts you at the 2.5 BP.

I suggest reading this write up
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/10950835104#new-post
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@Aelfin unfortunately you've done what Silverfire has written about axes. With wrath up, your attack speeds are 2.67/2.5. That means the axe doesn't hit the next breakpoint, so its ias is wasted. A mace would hit the same bp, and do more damage. This is particularly relevant for a ww/rend build, because the rend damage is based off the main hand weapon.
Edited by gooball#6178 on 12/18/2013 12:08 PM PST
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@Soldier, your link is pointing back to this thread. But I think I know the post you are talking about, the one that explained as bps. I thought I read that and the shortened version.

Seems I skimmed tho. My takeaway was that I needed the slowest hand to be at least 2.5.

Thanks much, I'll keep an eye out for a reasonable mace. Not having a prob with the 2.5 speed so not sure I care too much about hitting 2.86.
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@Aelfin - The link points back to here because your toon is the perfect example of what Silverfire is talking about. I wasn't mocking you or anything, just want to make sure that you actually read what he had said.

When you go to purchase a 1.2 mace you don't want any IAS on it. Get one with the HIGHEST average damage as possible. CD. OS, LS (only because it's on your axe). Some people say LS on MH isn't ideal and that it should be on the EF, but your EF isn't that bad so unless you want to replace more than one item just get it on your MH
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12/18/2013 12:32 PMPosted by Aelfin
@Soldier, your link is pointing back to this thread. But I think I know the post you are talking about, the one that explained as bps. I thought I read that and the shortened version.

Seems I skimmed tho. My takeaway was that I needed the slowest hand to be at least 2.5.

Thanks much, I'll keep an eye out for a reasonable mace. Not having a prob with the 2.5 speed so not sure I care too much about hitting 2.86.

Using axe mainhand and bad slots for IAS (both lacunis and inna's)

I've seen better, I've seen worse.
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Hey silverfire.

Thank you for the info. I thought I had a pretty good build, but now I am reconsidering. What could I change about my gear to make it better. Please, any input would be good. I am looking for upgrades.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/aton304-1687/hero/28174689
Edited by aton304#1687 on 12/18/2013 1:48 PM PST
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12/18/2013 01:48 PMPosted by aton304
Hey silverfire.

Thank you for the info. I thought I had a pretty good build, but now I am reconsidering. What could I change about my gear to make it better. Please, any input would be good. I am looking for upgrades.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/aton304-1687/hero/28174689

You aren't doing anything wrong as far as breakpoints go which is what my "beef" in this thread. You would be better off getting lifesteal (instead of vit) on your mainhand and getting crit damage on your EF. Other than that, you have a solid 2.86 setup.

Just learn to get rid of bash. At 2.86/2.86, fury should pretty much never be a problem.
Edited by silverfire#1855 on 12/18/2013 2:03 PM PST
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Wow, awesome post. I prefer d3up to d3 rawr, but really they're just 2 iterations of the same thing.

edit: and I don't take offense about the bash and WC comments, very very few hardcore players run a no fury generator build, and only a couple have done so successfully all the way to p100.
Edited by Bryanw1995#1913 on 12/18/2013 3:19 PM PST
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I use bash, therefore I'm a noob.

/sosad

In all honesty I don't know what I'm doing completely, but I do have fun :)
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But the axe and extra 5%ias on jewelry makes my detail page dps get HUUUUGE!
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edit: and I don't take offense about the bash and WC comments, very very few hardcore players run a no fury generator build, and only a couple have done so successfully all the way to p100.

True, HC is a totally different game. I'd probably (grudgingly) be using both myself if I had the balls to play HC. That's also why I said all rules have exceptions.
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By the way, nice write up Silverfire. It's exhausting trying to help people in this same scenario over and over and over, and over.

Thank you sir.

Edit: And over and over.. ;)
Edited by Sedi#1653 on 12/18/2013 3:52 PM PST
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I feel like such a noob! I think I broke half of your cardinal sins. Oh well.....
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http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9280358016?page=1#2

THE GOLDEN RULES (for breakpoints)

DUAL WIELD
MH Mace w/ OH EF - 2.5 w/ both hands
.23aps EF - 35%ias on gear (9/9/9/8)
.24aps EF - 34%ias on gear (9/9/8/8 or 9/9/9/7)
.25aps EF - 33%ias on gear (9/8/8/8 or 9/9/9/6)

MH EF w/ OH Sword - MH: 2.5 and OH: 2.8
.23aps EF - 36%ias on gear (9/9/9/9)
.24aps EF - 35%ias on gear (9/9/9/8)
.25aps EF - 34%ias on gear (9/9/8/8)

MH Axe w/ OH EF - MH: 2.8 and OH: 2.5
.25aps EF - 45%ias on gear (9/9/9/9/9)

MH IAS Axe w/ OH EF - MH: 2.8 and OH: 2.5
.24aps EF w/ 8%IAS Axe - 34%ias on gear (9/9/8/8)
.25aps EF w/ 8%IAS Axe - 33%ias on gear (9/8/8/8)

MH EF w/ OH IAS Dagger - MH: 2.5 and OH: 3.34
.23aps EF w/ 11%IAS Dagger - 36%ias on gear (9/9/9/9)
.24aps EF w/ 11%IAS Dagger - 35%ias on gear (9/9/9/8)
.25aps EF w/ 11%IAS Dagger - 35%ias on gear (9/9/9/8)
.25aps EF w/ 10%IAS Dagger - 36%ias on gear (9/9/9/9)

SKORN
LS Skorn: 1.67
42%ias on gear (9/9/8/8/8 or 9/9/9/8/7 or 9/9/9/9/6)

LS Skorn: 1.82
57%ias on gear (7 slots of IAS)

LS Skorn: 2.01
75%ias on gear (9 slots of IAS)

IAS Skorn: 1.67
8%IAS - 30%ias on gear (9/8/7/6 or 8/8/7/7)
9%IAS - 28%ias on gear (4 slots of IAS)
10%IAS - 27%ias on gear (9/9/9)
11%IAS - 26%ias on gear (9/9/8)

IAS Skorn: 1.82
8%IAS - 44%ias on gear (5 slots of IAS)
9%IAS - 42%ias on gear (5 slots of IAS)
10%IAS - 41%ias on gear (5 slots of IAS)
11%IAS - 39%ias on gear (5 slots of IAS)

IAS Skorn: 2.01
8%IAS - 61%ias on gear (7 slots of IAS)
9%IAS - 59%ias on gear (7 slots of IAS)
10%IAS - 57%ias on gear (7 slots of IAS)
11%IAS - 56%ias on gear (7 slots of IAS)

S&B
LS Sword: 2.01
19%ias on gear (3 slots of IAS)

LS Sword: 2.23
35%ias on gear (9/9/9/8)

LS Sword: 2.5
54%ias on gear (9/9/9/9/9/9)

IAS Sword: 2.01
6%ias on gear (1 slot of IAS)

IAS Sword: 2.23
21%ias on gear (3 slots of IAS)

IAS Sword: 2.5
39%ias on gear (5 slots of IAS)
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