Diablo® III

SF's rant about breakpoints

Dear OP, Silverfire,

I understand your point. The problem is none of the build threads I have looked at have any real information in them.

No definition of abbreviations. APS? EF?
No information except links that circle around endlessly, and no one is saying what the break points are or laying down a standard build that can be developed as gear is found or bought.
As an example:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7591980848

This thread starts with a wall of links that in a week I could not possibly read half of the threads linked; let alone the dozens of pages in that one link. I could spend months tracing ever thread linked and then have to go back and sort through it a second time just to find the pertinent information to the build I want to develop.

I do understand that with the Gigantic variation in gear, and build possibilities, it is not easy, but I cannot find the information you are talking about let alone the information I would like to be a better barb.

So please stop hating me because I can't find what you are talking about and look me up in game, send me a invite, give me a chat addy; talk to me to help me. Saying I am stupid is pointless and unhelpful. It drives me away from the game when uber smart barbs like you hate me instead of helping me.

PS I got a 6 million budget, so stuff is not easy to come by, I buy what I can when I can, but most stuff is way out of my price range, so maybe it is all moot, I will never find the gear I need and never have the money to afford the gear I want.

WHY EVEN TRY!
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So please stop hating me because I can't find what you are talking about and look me up in game, send me a invite, give me a chat addy; talk to me to help me. Saying I am stupid is pointless and unhelpful. It drives me away from the game when uber smart barbs like you hate me instead of helping me.


Barb class is not a very hard class to learn but there is a great depth of knowledge to it. My advice is to not get frustrated and impatient. Keep reading and post questions about what you don't understand. You will find that a lot of peps here are more than willing to help out if you ask. Keep in mind that many barbs here know what they know becuase they have taken the time to learn it.

It's ok to make threads asking questions but make sure you have done your own research before you do so that you ask closer to specific questions. This will help you understand the various replies since there can be different ways to tackle a single issue.

If you want one on one gear advice take the initiative and send the friend request asking courteously for help.

12/31/2013 09:35 AMPosted by UncleFester
WHY EVEN TRY!


no one cares if you do or don't. but if you "try" we can help.
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12/31/2013 09:35 AMPosted by UncleFester
Dear OP, Silverfire,

I understand your point. The problem is none of the build threads I have looked at have any real information in them.

No definition of abbreviations. APS? EF?
No information except links that circle around endlessly, and no one is saying what the break points are or laying down a standard build that can be developed as gear is found or bought.
As an example:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7591980848

This thread starts with a wall of links that in a week I could not possibly read half of the threads linked; let alone the dozens of pages in that one link. I could spend months tracing ever thread linked and then have to go back and sort through it a second time just to find the pertinent information to the build I want to develop.

I do understand that with the Gigantic variation in gear, and build possibilities, it is not easy, but I cannot find the information you are talking about let alone the information I would like to be a better barb.

So please stop hating me because I can't find what you are talking about and look me up in game, send me a invite, give me a chat addy; talk to me to help me. Saying I am stupid is pointless and unhelpful. It drives me away from the game when uber smart barbs like you hate me instead of helping me.

PS I got a 6 million budget, so stuff is not easy to come by, I buy what I can when I can, but most stuff is way out of my price range, so maybe it is all moot, I will never find the gear I need and never have the money to afford the gear I want.

WHY EVEN TRY!

I know, its very hard to find information since there's just so much of it. That's why I tried to put it in a somewhat condensed format. Also, my "hate" is very tongue-in-cheek. I'll gladly help anyone who seeks it. I've tried posting general pointers in the past, but this thread has attracted much more traffic than anything else, so mission accomplished. There are a lot of tricks on how to gear at varying budgets. Once you go below 50m-100m, it starts taking creativity beyond just looking at typical profiles, and the lower you go, the more it takes, which ironically makes things harder, since the newbies are the ones without much to spend.
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12/31/2013 09:35 AMPosted by UncleFester
Dear OP, Silverfire,

I understand your point. The problem is none of the build threads I have looked at have any real information in them.

No definition of abbreviations. APS? EF?
No information except links that circle around endlessly, and no one is saying what the break points are or laying down a standard build that can be developed as gear is found or bought.
As an example:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7591980848

This thread starts with a wall of links that in a week I could not possibly read half of the threads linked; let alone the dozens of pages in that one link. I could spend months tracing ever thread linked and then have to go back and sort through it a second time just to find the pertinent information to the build I want to develop.

I do understand that with the Gigantic variation in gear, and build possibilities, it is not easy, but I cannot find the information you are talking about let alone the information I would like to be a better barb.

So please stop hating me because I can't find what you are talking about and look me up in game, send me a invite, give me a chat addy; talk to me to help me. Saying I am stupid is pointless and unhelpful. It drives me away from the game when uber smart barbs like you hate me instead of helping me.

PS I got a 6 million budget, so stuff is not easy to come by, I buy what I can when I can, but most stuff is way out of my price range, so maybe it is all moot, I will never find the gear I need and never have the money to afford the gear I want.

WHY EVEN TRY!


Baby steps bro...baby steps.

I started from scratch, struggled with everything as the game mechanics were still being figured out but eventually reached the top of the mountain. It wasn't easy and that was half the fun.

I remember when I had 3m gold and thought, "I'm a multi-millionnaire!!"...you're sitting on double that so relax and learn.

First...don't play as if you're going to find a drop worth 2B...odds are against it...as a matter of fact, I've played for THOUSANDS of hours and the best I ever did was clear about 600m on a find....'twas a wonderful day. But here's the thing, the only reason I found that nice item (crazy high int/vit Viles) was because I learned the mechanics, knew what to gear towards, and PLAYED.

A proven strategy for gameplay is to upgrade 1 to 2 pieces at a time and to get the highest quality possible. It saves gold in the long run...ask any old school barb, they will confirm this. With this in mind, I would advise you to focus on crafting Strength Amulets. If the amulet doesn't roll crit chance, vendor it...you NEED crit chance on the amulet...that in turn will allow you to replace your IK helm (4 piece has no value) with a strength mempo. The crit chance amulet will/should keep you from dropping crit chance when you replace the IK helm....the Mempo will provide a nice chunk of all res and atk spd. That switch up would be a gigantic boost for your barb. Once you have that accomplished, come back to the forum and start a topic titled, "What's my next piece of gear?"...or something similar. You'll have 20 people all chiming in and offering advice.

You're wielding a 2h wep, so I'll leave the skill selection to those more qualified as I run a dual wielder. GL.

Tell you what UncleFester....roll a better amulet (one with crit chance) and I'll give you the Mempo on my BloodyZbub barb (sans amethyst of course).

Bloodyzbub#1683
Edited by Bloodyzbub#1683 on 12/31/2013 11:33 AM PST
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Can i get your stamp of approval even tho I'm breaking a few of your rules* SF ? :)

2-handed Rend setup: http://www.d3rawr.com/d-9STYk

DW tDPS setup: http://www.d3rawr.com/d-Py3T2

* =

Why I can guess that a barb using an axe is put together badly 99% of the time without even taking a close look at the gear is because there's really only one good way to use one, and that's with 5 slots of exactly 9% IAS with a +.25 EF. No 8%'s anywhere, no +.24's. 6 slots of IAS can be tolerable if they're done right, but cramming that many slots in without making major sacrifices elsewhere is virtually impossible.
Edited by Det0x#2856 on 1/7/2014 3:32 PM PST
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What are you talking about? The setup you linked is exactly what I described the "right" way to use an axe...5x9, +.25 EF. You had a sloppy setup on with a 6% IAS ring at one point that gotten beaten by Morpheus despite him being well behind you in sheet DPS.

So...what's the point? The part you bolded isn't even relevant to you.
Edited by silverfire#1855 on 1/7/2014 3:46 PM PST
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Sorry i didn't know you got out of the wrong side of bed this morning :(

Anyhow, its right that i have been using my 6% ias allres ring for my VotA clears lately, but please note that also was done with a other amulet.. But I dont find 5.3mil tDPS all that shabby for that setup.

But my point was, and still it: (and i was happy that i managed to snipe my new ring from the auction house)

You can run with a axe mainhand without sacrificing all that much in other aspects of your character. The cost of doing so is an whole other story tho.. Nothing i would recommend others without a "high" budget to do
Edited by Det0x#2856 on 1/7/2014 4:12 PM PST
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It's the first day of work after a 2 week vacation, you can't blame me.

You misunderstood the post. I didn't say that running an axe makes you sacrifice a lot. I said that going past 5 slots of IAS does. That's what the bolded sentence says. Most people run axes either with 6 or more, or with less than 5 so that they don't even hit 2.86 aps.
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Yeah your right, when i read it again, i see that i misunderstood what you meant..

Guess i have to blame it on not speaking English natively. (there is a reason for all my edits :)

You can at-least take comfort in that your not the only one starting work after 2 weeks off.. And in my case we are doing 10 hours shifts right from the getgo. (15.00 -> 01.00)
Edited by Det0x#2856 on 1/7/2014 4:24 PM PST
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Based on the below,

MH IAS Axe w/ OH EF - MH: 2.8 and OH: 2.5
.24aps EF w/ 8%IAS Axe - 34%ias on gear (9/9/8/8)
.25aps EF w/ 8%IAS Axe - 33%ias on gear (9/8/8/8)

How much IAS do I need with .23aps EF?
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Lol.. why does it have to be so complicated. Yeah I know some of these things are fun to solve and really makes difference but using calculators and spreadsheets everytime you find a new possible "upgrade" is not fun for me at least.

For 2h weapon it is more simple but seeing all that crap about different breakpoints for mh and oh is just lol :)

All I just wonder why WW weapon hits has to be affected by attack speed. It should be more about movement speed.. the faster you rotate the more the weapons hit. You don't actually swing weapons normally when rotating like that (or thats what I just think :) ). Why does attackspeed affect on tornadoes ticks also?? They are tornadoes the faster you run the faster they swirl. SO again it is about movement speed.

Anyways to not make movement speed so important they could also just have some static number of ticks/hits no matter what you equip.

I just loved D2 classic WW barb. Equip any weapon .. only difference was damage and range on different weapon types, WW would do as much hits no matter how slow weapon you equipped.

D2:LoD required weaponspeed for WW breakpoints. This was kinda silly you could find really insane high damage weapon with sockets but totally ruin it for WW by socketing wrong stuff (not enough IAS). Also IIRC the most badass highest dmg best stat 2H Unique Sword The Grandfather couldn't even reach the WW breakpoint so it was actually almost useless since even blue weapons did more damage because they hit more.

These complicated mechanics limit quite a lot of gear choices.

Anyways what u guys say about my barb (the SC one in EU)? I am not a big fan of AH I think i've got a couple of pieces (that offhand for 50k or something :) because I needed CHD and LS ) there but mostly everything is self found.

Reason why I use EF in mainhand is because it is the weapon with most damage that I have found so far, I would like to put it to my OH but it has kinda crappy OH stats since no socket etc.

What is the best way to improve? And keep in mind I don't want to go to AH and just buy the stuff, lets say I would craft amulets and other Archon pieces..or find items.

Currently I play MP5 I could do MP6 already I think since most of the monsters in Mp5 seems to die so fast. I'm quite happy about how it works since I have no problems at all.. I really had to get more LS since elite fights were quite hazardous, since then it's been easy.

Fury is generally not a problem.. so I think I have enough crit and speed to keep WW all the time. I still like to have Bash to generate at the start and since I like to loot all rares too etc I have some breaks in killing which reduces my Fury so it is more convinient to get back to the fight after a break at town etc. Also against elites when there is the boss only left and you generate less fury i like to boost my damage with the punish rune and get some fury.

So thanks in advance..
Edited by akse#2721 on 1/30/2014 3:35 AM PST
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01/30/2014 02:07 AMPosted by Repuls0r
Based on the below,

MH IAS Axe w/ OH EF - MH: 2.8 and OH: 2.5
.24aps EF w/ 8%IAS Axe - 34%ias on gear (9/9/8/8)
.25aps EF w/ 8%IAS Axe - 33%ias on gear (9/8/8/8)

How much IAS do I need with .23aps EF?

with a ias axe with .23 ef, you need 35% from gear
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Just started my Barb(Main is a Wizz)

still lvling up, so I'll probably be breaking every rule in the book. I'll worry about it when I hit 60.

Just have to say HOLY CRAP Barbs are BadA$$ lol
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Bump for Noob Awareness Day.

Learn your bp's kids.
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12/18/2013 11:18 AMPosted by silverfire
-If you are using more than one out of the following, you're probably doing it wrong; lacunis, inna's, tal's chest, witching hour
-If more than 4 pieces of your gear have an IAS mod on them, chances are you're doing it wrong. Count them.


I knew you hated me silverfire and this is all the proof I needed.

ALL THIS TIME I HAVE BEEN DOING IT WRONG AND YOU DIDN'T TELL ME.

...and you said we were friends.

#HelpMeMauryOrJerrySpringer

OH...and I counted my IAS slots....and guess what...it is still less than the number of times you stomped on my heart. FEEL GOOD ABOUT YOURSELF TODAY, HEARTBREAKER.
Edited by Pri#1584 on 2/4/2014 12:46 PM PST
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02/04/2014 12:41 PMPosted by Pri
12/18/2013 11:18 AMPosted by silverfire
-If you are using more than one out of the following, you're probably doing it wrong; lacunis, inna's, tal's chest, witching hour
-If more than 4 pieces of your gear have an IAS mod on them, chances are you're doing it wrong. Count them.


I knew you hated me silverfire and this is all the proof I needed.

ALL THIS TIME I HAVE BEEN DOING IT WRONG AND YOU DIDN'T TELL ME.

...and you said we were friends.

#HelpMeMauryOrJerrySpringer


2.86/2.86 has to do everything wrong because there's really no other option sadly. I really wish I didn't have use to lacs innas and wh simultaneously, but it's basically the only choice.

Actually what has potential for being better is using legacy zuni boots for the last couple %, will win in DPS and possibly EHP depending on how its done...but not at all easy to find. Other option is making a tanky as hell enchantress like Nubtro did, but I don't like this option either because it only works solo.

But this late in the game everything is meh whatever anyways.
Edited by silverfire#1855 on 2/4/2014 12:51 PM PST
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02/04/2014 12:41 PMPosted by Pri
I knew you hated me silverfire and this is all the proof I needed.

ALL THIS TIME I HAVE BEEN DOING IT WRONG AND YOU DIDN'T TELL ME.

...and you said we were friends.

#HelpMeMauryOrJerrySpringer

Jerry Springer for sure. Let's entice Silver onto the show, then we'll both burst into tears and start hurling chairs at him.
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02/04/2014 12:41 PMPosted by Pri
OH...and I counted my IAS slots....and guess what...it is still less than the number of times you stomped on my heart.


Every rose has its thorn, just like every.....WTF!!
Edited by KingBenjamin#1485 on 2/4/2014 1:03 PM PST
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02/04/2014 12:49 PMPosted by gooball
Jerry Springer for sure. Let's entice Silver onto the show, then we'll both burst into tears and start hurling chairs at him.


You hurl the chair...I'll pretend to hold you back. Then as soon as the crowd starts cheering Jerry....I let you loose to do your worst!

Then again...Silver will just switch to his monk and pop Hard Target.

#DodgeOPwhenItWorks
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12/18/2013 11:18 AMPosted by silverfire
No, not at all the whining over RoS.

I'm getting annoyed at the influx of dual wield barbs that have their breakpoint optimization completely messed up.

It's practically an epidemic. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Nived and PhatPho's old threads going over the basics haven't seen much light of day lately, and we're getting a lot of people from other classes looking for quick paragons.

I cringe every time I see barbs built on obviously high budgets make really fundamental mistakes. First I think to myself, oh, another sheet DPS chaser, but now it's crossing my mind that they just don't know any better, because I swear that 90% of the dual wield barbs I see these days are geared like this.

Here are some of the main offenses.

-If you are using an axe and don't know what you're doing, chances are you're doing it wrong.
-If you are using more than one out of the following, you're probably doing it wrong; lacunis, inna's, tal's chest, witching hour
-If more than 4 pieces of your gear have an IAS mod on them, chances are you're doing it wrong. Count them.
-If your echoing fury is in your mainhand, chances are you're doing it wrong.
-If war cry shows up on your skill bar, you're doing it wrong.*
-If bash shows up on your skill bar, you're also likely doing it wrong.*

*unless you're in hardcore

There are exceptions to every rule, but the bottom line is that you don't want to be wasting any IAS. Worse still, is wasting an entire slot or even two. Whirlwind and sprint have breakpoints, and they're far apart from each other. The 3 most common ones are 2.5, 2.86 and 3.33. Wide gap between each of them.You don't want to be in some messy grey area like 2.7 aps with any of your weapons. If you are, much of your IAS is completely useless. Those affixes could have been used for something contributing real damage, like strength, crit damage or +damage instead. The worst is doing something like using inna's for a wasted IAS slot because then you've just gimped yourself out of strength, vit and ar together. Bad.

Axes are not always bad, but if you don't know what you're doing, they will gimp your damage heavily versus a mace. To put it simply, the echoing fury is a mace. If you use a rare mace (without any IAS mods on the weapon) with the echoing fury, they will swing at the same speed. If you use an axe, it can swing faster. A 1.3 APS axe equipped with a 1.45 EF will put the EF at 1.6 APS with no buffs and no IAS, and the axe at 1.7 APS.

What this means is that you have to have the axe and the EF at different breakpoints to take advantage of the axe's higher attack speed. If you don't, the axe will just be a weaker-hitting version of a mace, which is what nearly every barb using an axe ends up doing.

Why I can guess that a barb using an axe is put together badly 99% of the time without even taking a close look at the gear is because there's really only one good way to use one, and that's with 5 slots of exactly 9% IAS with a +.25 EF. No 8%'s anywhere, no +.24's. 6 slots of IAS can be tolerable if they're done right, but cramming that many slots in without making major sacrifices elsewhere is virtually impossible.

Don't use an axe unless you know what you're doing. Just go with a mace to make your life easy. Look at the weapon damage range, don't let the weapon DPS of the axe fool you.

Mainhand EF, almost always bad but BigBaller & co will throw a tantrum at me for saying it. Obvious reason is that there's tons of fear. Bad. More subtle reason is that rend resets tornado tick frequency to the mainhand frequency. With EF mainhand setups, the offhand will be either a sword or dagger, and they will swing faster than the EF. By resetting to the mainhand frequency, you're not taking advantage of the high attack speed of the sword/dagger, and you're getting no benefit at all from them and are additionally suffering from the relatively low damage range of most EF's when compared to most maces. If you're not using rend, it'll be somewhat unpredictable how fast you're swinging, which isn't really a good thing either.

tl;dr

If you don't want to be fussed with a lot of effort and cost in optimizing a barb properly, get a mace, an EF with +.24 aps or higher, and 4 slots of 8%+ IAS. The really cookie cutter setup we used to beat into peoples' heads in the old days. If you want to go beyond that, take a lot of care with selecting how much IAS you're getting and where you're putting it. And use d3rawr's tdps calculator while planning.


@silverfire

I hate to res an old thread, but i have heard from bloodyzbub that you have obtained some gold (for items) to distribute to a newbie barb of your choice (just hit lvl 60 on my first hero as of today! woot!), I just wanted to let you know that I am interested, and hope to win!

btw very helpful thread, i shall ditch the 1h axe immediately...

Thanks so much!
TLC
Edited by TheLostCake#1385 on 2/4/2014 10:21 PM PST
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