Diablo® III

Hitting Hard vs Hitting fast ROS

Hitting Hard = 2HxBOW
Hitting fast = 1HxBow

Assuming same DPS:

Hitting fast is preferred when i) your build spams a generator in which case you regen hatred faster ii) your skill can proc some kind of cc (e.g. thunderball)

Hitting hard is preferred when you rely on a hatred spender for damage (e.g. bombardment) and hence consuming hatred slower.

Is it just me or did ROS really turn the tables and DH's are now more incentivised to hit hard (slowly) as opposed to hitting fast?

1) Hatred spenders have all been buffed vs hatred generators. This means you have higher eDPS if you hit hard with your spenders as opposed to hitting fast with your spenders and using generators when you run out of hatred.

2) Many cooldown burst skills have been buffed...RoV and FoK (except knives expert) cannot be spammed and its better to hit hard.

Does anyone else feel this way?
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Steppers usually take the Hitting Fast route, while "nukers" take the Hard route.

Or whatever their build is needing.

Cluster Arrow builds tend to use XBows while stepper builds that uses multiple attacks to keep enemies at bay uses Fast attacks.
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12/21/2013 01:53 AMPosted by Alagos
Hitting Hard = 2HxBOW
Hitting fast = 1HxBow

Assuming same DPS:

Hitting fast is preferred when i) your build spams a generator in which case you regen hatred faster ii) your skill can proc some kind of cc (e.g. thunderball)

Hitting hard is preferred when you rely on a hatred spender for damage (e.g. bombardment) and hence consuming hatred slower.

Is it just me or did ROS really turn the tables and DH's are now more incentivised to hit hard (slowly) as opposed to hitting fast?

1) Hatred spenders have all been buffed vs hatred generators. This means you have higher eDPS if you hit hard with your spenders as opposed to hitting fast with your spenders and using generators when you run out of hatred.

2) Many cooldown burst skills have been buffed...RoV and FoK (except knives expert) cannot be spammed and its better to hit hard.

Does anyone else feel this way?


It's actually a bit more complex than that. For example, you forgot to mention that our hatred spenders also got cost reductions, on top of paragon points into resource cost reduction and max hatred pools, then lastly, gear.

This means that yes, you can literally spam a high % weapon damage hatred spender till jesus comes with a slower attack speed, but this also means a player with fast attack speed can combine several hatred spenders and use them in specific windows to maximize damage. The skills we have is more than just it's weapon damage, and some skills absolutely suck alone unless they are paired with others and that's the beauty of it, seeing how there's none of our skills that work the same as another.

Then you also have burst damage vs sustain damage. With burst damage, it's possible to clear out content extremely fast as long as the amount of burst damage you're dealing in relation to your hatred pool is enough to clear the area. However, if that player turns up the difficulty and mobs are not cleared by the time his/her hatred pool is drained, that person loses significant amount of damage output having to regenerate it slowly. Sustained damage will not clear as fast as burst damage in it's best scenario, however sustained damage is very consistent, which involves constant launching of different spenders and in general will end up dealing more damage in longer fights (higher difficulties usually) as there's no downtime of which his/her attacks are at a weak point.

There are many more factors that are not mentioned, but in the end, I don't feel like there's an incentive to HAVE to do either. It's pretty clear to me that all of the options are there, it just not as cut and dry and it's more dependent on how you want to build your character and your specific play style.
Edited by DiEoxidE#1987 on 12/21/2013 2:59 AM PST
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12/21/2013 02:54 AMPosted by DiEoxidE
This means that yes, you can literally spam a high % weapon damage hatred spender till jesus comes with a slower attack speed,


In the exp, I am thinking of running ele arrow without a generator as my primary which as long as I have a slow attack speed will never run out of hatred. If I attack fast, then of course I will run out of hatred and then have to switch from elemental arrow to bola which now represents a significant drop off in DPS.

This is what I mean. I guess before elemental arrow/chakrams do not do that much more damage compared to bolas/HA: SoT so having a faster attack speed doesn't result in a loss of eDPS.

The only exception is grenade cache which is capable with grenadier to be on level in damage with spenders.
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12/21/2013 03:07 AMPosted by Alagos
In the exp, I am thinking of running ele arrow without a generator as my primary which as long as I have a slow attack speed will never run out of hatred. If I attack fast, then of course I will run out of hatred and then have to switch from elemental arrow to bola which now represents a significant drop off in DPS


true

However, if you read Dieoxides reply, you'll find out that certain builds will be limited to content i.e. mob HP and your DPS. You might find out that you'll be clearing much faster in optimizing difficulty, once mobs have tremendous HP in ratio to your same DPS, youd run out of hatred and will either start shooting generators / or you'll need to up your damage (which always isn't an option)

I like optimized builds, but that's something personal. Others prefer some sort of "fixed" build which can handle any* content.

TL : DR

Fast attack'ers" will have a flat time kill : HP ratio. Nukers* will have some sort of curved ratio.
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Run both? With Free Impale being possible you can hit very hard (600% 3 enemies) non stop as fast as you can throw. I've been running free impale to very devastating effect with either a 2hander or 1 or dual wield. No need for punishment so that's an extra skill slot for FOK or rain of vengeance or sentry etc.
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Also need to consider the powerful skill affixes on new weapons (like free Strafe or EA as hatred generator) and LoH.

I think for higher mob HP the synergy with punishment, nightstalker and skill proc coefficients could become the new thing for Cluster Bombs with gear reduction + bonuses or FOK with no cool down rune as main damage dealers.

Time and selffound RNG will tell ;-)
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I have a problem with 4 spenders on my bar atm

I can't hit (use) all of them at the same time :p

btw I'm dual-wielding

This is just an example shouldn't be compare against elites since boss are much easier to kill. Azmodan has 45-50m HP in Master 60. I have 60k dps. I kill it in this time frame: 40 sec. How much is my edps and how many times has I increased by sheet dps to?

This is how you stack damage compare to some 1-2 button(s) build and to stack you need the aps to active as many attacks as possible in the same time frame: 1-2 seconds.
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Hit Fast unless you want to die to bosses, because LoH+Brooding makes you invincible.
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12/21/2013 07:54 PMPosted by MrBlonde
Hit Fast unless you want to die to bosses, because LoH+Brooding makes you invincible.


Try that on Torment I and above.. No one is invincible.. well.. as of the moment that is XD
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You forgot dual wield and normal bow + quiver.

Dual wield provides speed AND power at the cost of accuracy, while 2h normal bow + quiver provides the most consistent and reliable medium of all.

When it comes to HC, I'd rather dual wield or 2h normal bow + quiver more than 2h crossbow or 1h+quiver by far and without a doubt. My reasoning for it is complicated and I'm not talking about style points. And for the record, my original progressed HC DH was a dual wielder and chosen purposely.

I almost feel that options like 1h+quiver or 2h crossbow + quiver are better when the content is known and outgeared, then the advantages from these options start to really unfold.

PTR and RoS, Blizzard did a much better job with balancing the passives between all of these options instead of favoring 2h crossbow and 1h+quiver. Each option looks to take their own advantages further than ever before.

I mean, there's also 1h bow + shield and 1h melee + shield, but I haven't brainstormed any possibilities in RoS with it. The way dodge and block work in the game hurts it the most, if many of the things that couldn't be dodged could be blocked and vice versa, that would be a net buff for those options first and foremost.
Edited by ActionKungfu#1184 on 12/22/2013 3:21 AM PST
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12/22/2013 03:17 AMPosted by ActionKungfu
I mean, there's also 1h bow + shield and 1h melee + shield, but I haven't brainstormed any possibilities in RoS with it. The way dodge and block work in the game hurts it the most, if many of the things that couldn't be dodged could be blocked and vice versa, that would be a net buff for those options first and foremost.


With legendaries being quite Legendary.. I don't think 1H Melee + Shield WOULDN'T work ;)

We have Grenade Cache and Bola as our Generator. Sentries provide more utility now. and so on.

I tried using Vanilla Azurewraith with Sentry-Impaling Bolt/Spitfire.. it's like using Buriza :3

CoT + Azure was also fun >_<

Their EFFICIENCY, yes that word, can be questioned however in higher Difficulties, namely Torment 1 to 6. As of the moment, you can play in Master(60) with ANY Skills possible :) Melee or Ranged.

To note, Impale-Richochet is quite lethal and is one of them nice skills to use with 1H + Shield build It will be a tanky set up on it's own.

I still haven't seen a Lidless Wall in RoS.. I'm kinda excited what that does in RoS.
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Question:

Will there be any difference in damage output of sentries over like 10 seconds?

I see allot of players using bow/hxbow for the fast attacking rate of sentry, but AFAIK, xbow has higher weapon damage if the dps is the same and you don't need to spend allot of hatred to utilize the fast generator attacks.

I know that sentry only benefits from primary stats and attack speed, but it doesn't have any additional advantage by using a fast weapon right? Unless I'm mistaken, do spitfire shoot more rockets if your attack is faster?

Any breakpoint/framerate for sentry to consider?
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01/09/2014 09:00 PMPosted by HachiKumo
Question:

Will there be any difference in damage output of sentries over like 10 seconds?

I see allot of players using bow/hxbow for the fast attacking rate of sentry, but AFAIK, xbow has higher weapon damage if the dps is the same and you don't need to spend allot of hatred to utilize the fast generator attacks.

I know that sentry only benefits from primary stats and attack speed, but it doesn't have any additional advantage by using a fast weapon right? Unless I'm mistaken, do spitfire shoot more rockets if your attack is faster?

Any breakpoint/framerate for sentry to consider?


What I'm about to say will be a bit different in RoS, but as of current this is how it works.

2hxbow's are geared to be very crit heavy, in which your sentries don't care about. They also don't thrive on average damage nor attack speed like their counterparts do, so the thing to do with this weapon is to stack as much crit as possible. Most even forgo attack speed, especially in "no generator" builds which leads to more favorable hatred management for the style.

1h and 2hbow's are geared moreso towards high average damage with emphasis in crit damage later AFTER the average damage and +% elemental damage has been nearly maxed out. They also benefit a bit better from attack speed than the 2hxbow's. Both of these elements gives tremendous benefit to sentry damage output since these weapons are geared for high amounts of "natural damage"

The end result in a usual case is 1h and 2hbow's (2hbow's being the best) will put out considerably more damage over time than a 2hxbow for a sentry. The only way a 2hxbow can semi-keep up, is if the manticore user went dual ruby in a high +% damage weapon or Ruby in hellion with zuni boots + inna's belt. Dual wielding isn't bad for sentries either, though that's a different animal all together.

Breakpoint's are the same as any attack speed "non-channeling" skills, except sentries no longer benefit from attack speeds above 3.0 breakpoint.
Edited by DiEoxidE#1987 on 1/10/2014 1:32 AM PST
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The only way a 2hxbow can semi-keep up, is if the manticore user went dual ruby in a high +% damage weapon or Ruby in hellion with zuni boots + inna's belt. Dual wielding isn't bad for sentries either, though that's a different animal all together.


Meaning to say 2x Ruby Manticore (1.3k dps b4 gems) is weaker or the same as 1xRuby Windforce (1.3k dps b4 gems)? All the damage modifier like zuni boots/inna belt and attack speed boost stays the same.

01/10/2014 12:31 AMPosted by DiEoxidE
Breakpoint's are the same as any attack speed "non-channeling" skills, except sentries no longer benefit from attack speeds above 3.0 breakpoint.

I don't know about this. Damage granted from Total 3.0 ASI is the same as 3.1 ASI, if paper dps is identical? Does it mean that using a xbow and thereafter gear up to almost 3asi from gears will result in the higher damage output?

Thanks for answering.
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01/10/2014 12:57 AMPosted by HachiKumo
Meaning to say 2x Ruby Manticore (1.3k dps b4 gems) is weaker or the same as 1xRuby Windforce (1.3k dps b4 gems)? All the damage modifier like zuni boots/inna belt and attack speed boost stays the same.


The 2hbow will still output more over time than a 2hxbow. This mainly will have to do with the archery passive in which is a flat "natural damage" buff for 2hbow's and a crit damage buff for 2hxbows.

01/10/2014 12:57 AMPosted by HachiKumo
I don't know about this. Damage granted from Total 3.0 ASI is the same as 3.1 ASI, if paper dps is identical? Does it mean that using a xbow and thereafter gear up to almost 3asi from gears will result in the higher damage output?


Over time, technically speaking, yes. Realistically speaking, it can't happen.

There are sentry experts that can chime in on more details pertaining to this. I assume Mao will be on this shortly :P
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Hachi =>>
I see allot of players using bow/hxbow for the fast attacking rate of sentry, but AFAIK, xbow has higher weapon damage if the dps is the same and you don't need to spend allot of hatred to utilize the fast generator attacks.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sentry Point of View (in general)( special tanky CoT builds are a diff category)

1 handed bow ( Calmity, Dawn, etc ) user with High dex , high crit chance & aspd .
- Fastest attack speed
- Archery gives 10 % crit chance, does not benefit Sentry
- Goes for crit damage & crit chance. Sentry becomes a secondary source of damage.
- Result : Lowest sentry damage of all. Hits for 75-110k perhit , but your crits are already at 400-500 k.
Conclusion : Sentry shoots faster then rest but your shots still hit harder. If u just stand still , it will take 4 light years to clear the elite.

2 handed bow ( Windforce , etc)
- Moderate aspd
- Archery gives 15 % increased damage. Sentries gain that 15 %
- Opened to alot of options. Sentry shoots at moderate damage, but because of archery , damage is boosted up and you can focus on attack speed. To make it stronger. (possible to become a main source of damage)
- Result : A fast firing moderate damage sentry. Hits from 120 k - 185 k perhit , at 3 hits persecond. Used with Custom Engineering to boost damage over time.
Conclusion : Sentry shoots hard, with a high aspd, provided you r geared & built towards it. Clears elite in 1 light years . (right , Fumo? :P )

2 handed x bow ( Manticore , etc)
- Slow aspd like crazy
- Archery gives 50 % crit damage. Sentries cant gain %
- Worst weapon for sentry, due to slow attack speed. Even with 95 % aspd bonus , with a crossbow at 1800 damage and dex, the sentries shoot like 1.5 hits persecond.
- Hits for 160- 225k perhit but because the attack speed is too slow, mobs cannot be cleared in time and thats baddd.
Conclusion : Sentry shoots hardest, but it will take u 10 light years to watch it kill that elite.
(I once bought a 1420 ++ 2hxbow, to test out the effect and almost cried because not only because i wasted 100 mil + 5 mil to unsocket but the letdown was omg ! ) that was 6-7 months ago lol

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Ps : If i had to choose between hitting hard and hitting fast, I dont want either. I want bothh !!!!
Edited by Mao#6908 on 1/10/2014 1:43 AM PST
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You somehow ended up quoting me with his quote mao, lol.
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haha , lazy to scroll up 1 screen , sozzzzz loll
Edited by Mao#6908 on 1/10/2014 1:44 AM PST
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Thanks for the information.

I need to clarify a bit, by damage output, I meant sentry's damage, and I like to main my damage from sentries.

Actually this question comes up when I finally saw someone's twitch on the DH set which allows sentry to fire Hatred Spender.

So I'm thinking if the firing rate is slow due to the internal cooldown, I might as well, use a crossbow to deal a higher burst damage. I can even use a Buriza (if I managed to find all the required gears, there's will there's way), which allow me to 'freeze', pierce(normal attack) from impale - chemical burn.

I also see it somewhere about sentry that crits, or maybe it is the pets. If it does, I'm hoping that they doesn't reset Sharpshooter ;-]
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