Diablo® III

Crusader - Phalanx Shieldbearers nerf

C'mon, someone had to say it.

I love the skill, but it's seriously OP. It costs nothing compared to the insane damage it's doing. It is currently my main Wrath spender, as Moldran's crusader as I've seen in his last video.
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I belive this skillrune is just bugged and do far more damage as intended.
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i dont think its damage its OP. its just the way the spell works: its a full melee skill and has its ups and downs, but the damage is based on your stats afterall. the real thing that may be "op" is the 100%knockback rate (on whites, it doesnt work on bosses etc).

if anything should be changed, its the knockback procrate, damage isnt so unreal. last rune of heaven's ray crits for 8-10millions for me and its costs roughly the same amount of wrath.
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01/01/2014 09:57 PMPosted by Gantz
i dont think its damage its OP. its just the way the spell works: its a full melee skill and has its ups and downs, but the damage is based on your stats afterall. the real thing that may be "op" is the 100%knockback rate (on whites, it doesnt work on bosses etc).

if anything should be changed, its the knockback procrate, damage isnt so unreal. last rune of heaven's ray crits for 8-10millions for me and its costs roughly the same amount of wrath.


Nah, damage is too much for a zero CD spender. Every shieldbearer hits 9 times per cast with my gear (and its not great) dealing 295% weapon damage each cast. Taking into account that bigger enemies with greater hitboxes can be hit by multiple shieldbearers further makes this skill by far the strongest spender.
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Yeah, Shieldbearers is a no brainer. People will almost always choose the most efficient way, and this rune is the way to go. It's defense and crazy offense so...
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I disagree. I feel as though many of the other skills are underwhelming and in need of enhancement. Every other skill either falls into the category of being too expensive or not doing enough damage. I happen to really like Fist of the Heavens for example, but it feels so crappy when I can only cast it 3 times and then have to swing my weapon 4-6 times just to cast it again. Considering just about everyone will be using a two hander, this can take a long time. A little off topic, but honestly I feel like using a two-hander should be innate within the class, as the 30% damage reduction would be on other melees. Requiring a passive just to utilize what should be a signature aspect is lame.

My crusader is around 240k dps using a 2 handed flail and using any skill but Phalanx - Shield Bearers seems worthless and not very fun.
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Be fair PoopsOnGirls. Allmost ALL Crusaders are running this skill+rune and everyone is twinking a Crusader as this combo is sooooooo much better then anythink the other classes can offer.

Do the test. Try to find people with ~500k pDPS and let them kill the Butcher on Torment 1 + stop the time. Crus with Phlanax will outperform every other class with any other skillbuild BY FAR!

PS:
- Bombardment has a far to long cooldown for the damage it does. Heavn's Fury, Condemn and Falling Swords are on 15/20/25 second cooldowns. So why has Bombardement 60 seconds? Damage of all 3 are compareble. I realy can't understand the 60 seconds.

- Blessed Shields damage is to low compared to other wrath-spender

- Shield Bash cost to much Wrath for what it does and more often then not you get blocked by invisible stuff ending in not doing any damage

- Blessed Hammer ... don't know till now. Over all I like it but without resuce cost reduction it's not that usefull. Maybe if someone manages to get wrath-reg >>> wrath-spend it will work as perma spamm (old Hammerdin).

- And Crusader should get the 30% damage reduction like Monk and Barb. Most of his abilitys are meele or close range abilitys. If you want him to be short/medium range he should at last get a 20% reduction.
Edited by Jahor#2300 on 1/3/2014 1:45 PM PST
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Almost every other stupid skill in this game requires you to build around attack speed and blizz want to keep nerfing attack speed. If anything we need more skills like phalanx to add variety and options and 2h weapon availability.
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01/03/2014 10:48 AMPosted by Jahor
- Blessed Hammer ... don't know till now. Over all I like it but without resuce cost reduction it's not that usefull. Maybe if someone manages to get wrath-reg >>> wrath-spend it will work as perma spamm (old Hammerdin).


Hammer has some big flaws imo. First, you can't cast it while moving. Second, you need a high attack speed to spam them quickly (which you want especially with -resource builds) but then the damage of your big cooldowns is lower as they don't scale with AS, at least not to my knowledge. Add to that the somewhat erratic flight path and I just don't see it as a very good skill :(
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Ha, I'm surprised anyone's defending it here.

30 wrath for:

- 300% damage per hit
- 8 hits per ghost
- each ghost hits a small area around it, they're not single target attacks
- pretty easy to get all four hitting the same target with good placement
- crowd control due to the small launch effect

on top of that, you're allowed to have many instances of the spell out at once. 8 x 4 x 300 = 9600% damage per cast on big targets, dealt in about 4 seconds. I was easily doing 1 million effective DPS with a crusader with 15k sheet damage.

It's better at the Rend playstyle than Rend is.
Edited by Raticus79#1110 on 1/6/2014 8:01 AM PST
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Yes phalanx should do a bit less damage, but as I've said more skills need to work in a similar fashion, i.e. forget the damn attack speed already!

Oh and don't forget you won't be spamming this without a bugged Pride's Fall or you will end up nerfing yourself elsewhere to gain resource cost reduction.
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I'm sure they should do 300% damage for the time of their life (300% over 8 hits) and not peer hit. That's the way the other Phalanx runes work.
Same bug as old x-ray beam of death where it did all the damage peer tick and not over lfietime.

For the Hammers I still sugest:
- faster flight speed
- smaller radius increase peer spin
- longer lifetime to reach the same max radius

Casteble while moving would be to much as any other cast except WW, TR and Strafe need you to stand still too. Maybe as rune where you get some small drawbacks like "Hammer can now be cast while moving but movespeed is reduced to 80%".
Edited by Jahor#2300 on 1/8/2014 3:00 AM PST
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The skill is so incredibly overpowered, I can't believe that anybody is even defending it. I played crusader almost exclusively for 2 wks, and with shieldbearers I can farm 1-2 torment levels higher than I can with my barb using all of the same gear.
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It is OP, but the problem is that if they nerf it, there is literally nothing to replace it.
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Like I posted in main feedback I did the test with level 70 chars, all about 600k pDPS. I do not call this numbers as hammered in stone ... but the difference is sooooo significant ... they talk for themselfe.


DH (598k pDPS): 2:44 min (but I'm realy bad with DH). Rappid fire / rocket + 3 rocket Turrets + new skill

WD (601k pDPS): 2:50 min. 3 dogs, gargantua, voodoo, SP/WoS, Zombie/PillOn

Wiz (617k DPS): 2:46 min (no healpots *g* as I forgot them). Ray of Frost/sleetstorm, IceArmor/Frozen Storm, Familar/Cannoner

Monk (583k pDPS): 2:40 min with 35% lightning dam, 15% Lashing Tail Kick/Scorpion, 14% Tempest Rush, 23% Sweeping Wind/Cyclon, Epiphanie, Deadly Reach/Foresight

Crusader (585k pDPS): 0.40 min PHALANX ...
nuf said, not OP? trollolloll roflstomp

PS: Crusader same build except Fist of Heavn instead of Phalanx 3:15 min
PPS: Crusader same build but this time Hammer 3:25 min (hard to land as we all know)

Over all? FoH (warth from 20 to 15 should be enough) and Hammer (biger hitbox for the hammers) are in good positions but Phalanx is INSANE OVERPOWER ... or BUGed what I belive (same BUG as Heavns Furry before. Should be 295% over 8 hits NOT peer hit (which is 2360% over 8 hits)).

PPPS: yes times can vary if I do it again as Butcher is no static fight. He moves, I move, a lucky fight might be 20 sec fast, a unluck 20 sec slower.
But in NO WAY there should be 2 minutes difference like Phalanx >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rest


There are for sure different builds for all the classes which might be faster or slower then my builds. I do not claim to have "perfect" builds or whatever!

But as long as nobody can provide a build for Monk, Wiz, DH, WD, Barb which can do the Butcher as fast as Crusader/Phalanx at T1 with only 600k pDPS I keep my words: Phalanx is bugged or insane overpowert!

01/11/2014 03:36 AMPosted by Silvont
It is OP, but the problem is that if they nerf it, there is literally nothing to replace it.

As I showed Hammer and FoH are in a good place to be on paar with the other classes. Slightly adjustments and they are fine!
Just not as ZombiStyleNoBrain like Phalanx ;).
Edited by Jahor#2300 on 1/12/2014 2:21 PM PST
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Jahor, do you even read?

We ALL know that Shield Bearers is bugged atm. That's no secret for anyone. It will be nerfed. But you showed it: WITHOUT Phalanx the Crusader is WAY slower than any other class.

That's what I wanted to tell you the last few days.

Crusader is NOT finished.
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01/12/2014 02:47 PMPosted by Ban4NnaP0w4
Jahor, do you even read?

We ALL know that Shield Bearers is bugged atm. That's no secret for anyone. It will be nerfed. But you showed it: WITHOUT Phalanx the Crusader is WAY slower than any other class.

That's what I wanted to tell you the last few days.

Crusader is NOT finished.

OMG not you again

You don't understand the numbers. Or you tryhard to mis-read them to abuse them for your propaganda.

My Crusader has the lowest pDPS of all my chars. The Monks looks wors first but I clearly wrote down all the xx% damage boosts he has!

With 22k less pDPS then my Wizard the numbers for the Crusader with hammer and FoH aren't as bad as you try to tell us now.

AND I too mentioned, that Hammer and FoH need TINY buffs. But in no way as much as you want them!

Where I do agree is, that the wrath-generators except Slash need to be looked at.
And where I do agree is, that Crusader should have a 15-30% build in damage reduction like Monk and Barb.

But Crusader is in no way even close to the terrible conditions you want people to belive!
Edited by Jahor#2300 on 1/12/2014 5:26 PM PST
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Hey Jahor, first good you put that to the test. But I have a few gripes with your tests:

1. Paper DPS doesn't say much. Perhaps your other chars have +% elemental damage to the attack types they are specialized in..

2. I can't see which legendaries your chars wield. Some of them are worth much more dps that doesn't show.

3. Butcher is a suboptimal fight for dps comparisons. Better use Azmodan!

4. My main concern with crusader doesn't lie with FoH and the ranged builds but with his melee styles especially shield bash. Could you do your test with shield bash (you can even take pound as a rune)
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Even abusing this skill with 12m hitpoints, fire immunity and 1m damage, I can only do T3 without any deaths and at a reasonable speed. Higher difficulties are possible, however not really enjoyable.

As someone already suggested, there is a bug that your summons do their overall damage with every hit instead of over time, so once blizz fixes this, I guess I am back to my barb where I can farm the same difficulty without anyone telling me how bad I am for using bugged skills (I think it was Jahor flaming me in a public game, I might be wrong though) ... :)
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01/12/2014 09:55 PMPosted by pasch
Hey Jahor, first good you put that to the test. But I have a few gripes with your tests:

1. Paper DPS doesn't say much. Perhaps your other chars have +% elemental damage to the attack types they are specialized in..

I would love to get a fast way to write them all down ;).
@Blizzard, might it be posible to see stuff like "xx% lightning damage" at the char-screen?

DH: 15% rapid fire bonus, 8% cdr, 0% hate 10% disziplin rcr (passive)

WD: 13% Firebats which I didn't use, 0% cdr, 35% mana rcr, 60 base mana regen

Wiz: 11% Femilar damage, 0% cdr, 0% rcr, 19 arcane on crit, 60,1% cc

Monk: well, lots of xx% for everythink I use ;). 28.78% cdr, 50,5% cc

Crusader: 14% FoH, 11% Heavens Furry, 15% Lightning, 15% Slash, 8% cdr, 41% rcr (Bugged helm)


2. I can't see which legendaries your chars wield. Some of them are worth much more dps that doesn't show.

Well, suboptimals :).

DH: Hellrack X-Bow (root on hit), Cord of the Sherma belt (creat chaos field), Boj Angles boots (15% rapid fire)

WD: Quetzalquote helm (Haunt, Swarm, Piranas last forever which I all didn't use), Old Talrashas Body, Wildwood sword (no spezial), Ring of royal Grandeur (-1 setitem, no real use but nice stat roll)

Wiz: Dark Magics helm (auto cast Diamond skin), Warzechian bracers (movespeed on destroy objects), Cord of the Sherman belt, Leorics ring, Envios Blade (100% cc against full life enemys ... not helpy with my builds and this fight), Boots of Disregard (insane lifereg while standing *g*), Old Talrashas body

Monk: Old modified Won Kim Lau, Cord of the Sherman (I love this belt *g*), Exarian (-1 sec cooldown on killing demons)
I had to downgrade ALOT to get close to my 600k pDPS target!

Crusader: Prides Fall helm (bugged 30% rcr), Guardians set belt+bracers for MUCHO GRANDE life *g*, 2h unique Flail with bugged name (norm_unique 6) (every enemy hit with Condemn triggers another Condemn, not realy helpy against singel target)


3. Butcher is a suboptimal fight for dps comparisons. Better use Azmodan!

but requiers alot more lifereg/LoH/whatever and defens. Not posible with my DH for example :(.

01/12/2014 09:55 PMPosted by pasch

4. My main concern with crusader doesn't lie with FoH and the ranged builds but with his melee styles especially shield bash. Could you do your test with shield bash (you can even take pound as a rune)

I try

PS: I tryed ;)
3:46 min
Punish as wrath builder with Retaliad
Shield Bash with Pound (using a yellow crusader level 70 shield)
Condemn with Vaccum (didn't change this a I like it *g* works great with my flail)
Heavn's Furry with Split Furry

This would work MUCH better with a fast 1h then my slow 2h flail! Attackspeed of Shield Bash would be much better and wrath regen with Punish would be much faster!
P3S: I had to move alot near end as I can't stay in the fire with my Crusader. Would kill me ;).
P4S: I try to get my hands on a good and fast 1h and to repeat the test then.

PPS: as I recheck my numbers ... Monk is terrible slow against singel target when I compare my equip and time :( MONK NEED BUFF!!!!!
No he don't! My Monk build is bad agains singel targets and I know it! Deadly Reach is not for singel Target, WohF with first rune is much better and would speed the fight up by a good amount.
Edited by Jahor#2300 on 1/13/2014 5:37 AM PST
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