Diablo® III

BoA Versus Free Trade: *Is* There A Compromise?

Community Manager
Posts: 3,389
01/15/2014 01:21 AMPosted by AngelOfDeath
Color me confused.


There can be multiple great threads on the same subject. Forum discussions aren't like Highlander.

And, yes. I'm here to foster discussion -- because I care about what you think, not simply for the sake of fostering discussion itself.
Edited by Lylirra on 1/15/2014 2:01 AM PST
100 Undead Priest
10760
Posts: 2,289
You mean usually 1 or more uniques per 5 minute run on avg? :P Yeah it's like a foreign language to some people.

PS: Just had an earthquake :P


Sounds awesome, can you expand on that?
Community Manager
Posts: 3,389
01/15/2014 01:38 AMPosted by Shrew
Blue Lady, don't lock it. We're trying


Don't intend to, and don't see the need at present. :)

01/15/2014 01:40 AMPosted by TheSaint
PS: Just had an earthquake :P


Shock wave buddies! /highfive
Edited by Lylirra on 1/15/2014 2:01 AM PST
Posts: 11,031
01/15/2014 01:07 AMPosted by Lylirra
Less debating each other's BattleTag identities. More debating ideas.

This is a great thread; let's keep it focused.


Yeah thanks :). My apologies, I get tetchy when I'm hungry.

01/15/2014 12:46 AMPosted by Logos
This man can get impressions from that which is silent... BURN THE WITCH! I kid, but seriously, how do you know what the silent majority says? o.O


Haha touche :). But you know what I mean. If BoA was really such a crushing issue, I would personally expect to see a lot more complaints about it in beta. We will see once the next patch goes live.

01/15/2014 12:46 AMPosted by Logos
As for how my "ideal" ARPG goes, I wouldn't mind free trade being in the game, but I'd make gear pretty available, but the content pretty tough, so the game would be all about finding the right gear / build combinations to tackle it. Rather than RNG drops, your accomplishments would be how many gear / build combos that you "made work" fighting the hardest stuff in the game. That's what ARPGs are all about for me anyway..


This is a cool idea, and sounds a lot like Guild Wars 2. Thing is I personally prefer tons and tons of varied and interesting loot and slowly gathering a stash, which gradually allows me to test and create more builds.
MVP
Posts: 14,156
View profile
01/15/2014 12:53 AMPosted by Shrew
Yuck it up all you want. It's frustrating we even have to argue about any of this.


Oh I'm not yucking it up regarding BoA. I'm just getting a bit of entertainment value out of the fora for once with the back and forth bruehaha. Even I like to have fun once in a while. ;)

I see the purpose of BoA, but I'm still on the fence as to exactly how it might be best implemented. There is unfortunately no 100% surefire way to stop exploits or third party sites except full-on BoA on every last thing in the game, which I firmly believe would be pushing that envelope too far.

While a clan restriction sounds nice, and can in fact minimize the illicit activity of third party sites, it can't eliminate them completely. Finding that "just right" balance between BoA and trading is nowhere near as black and white as most of the people here would like to think it is.

I'd have been perfectly happy with a Bind on Trade (BoT) system that lets you trade once and that's it. It would eliminate any possibility of a defacto currency from emerging within the game and would force third party sites to expose their actual accounts instead of using shill accounts to hold items. It would not, as I've noted previously, eliminate the practice. Items would retain their actual value to the individual player doing the trade due to a lack of currency, thus forcing the player to value it in the "here and now".

I do know that the developers are aiming to eliminate as much of the pay to win/third party influence on the game as they can. What remains to be seen, and is known only by the devs themselves, is just what level of compromise, if any, they intend to implement with such a system.

And I'm still somewhat on the fence with BoA in its current form regarding its restrictions, as I've found a couple of legendaries that I wanted to give a friend, but had no way of doing so. It was frustrating for sure. But I try to be objective about the situation and take a look at it from both sides to see the ramifications having and not having BoA restrictions in place will have. I suspect that the devs are in a similar situation to me - they want to make playing the game the way to get loot, but don't want to necessarily make it constricting either.

It isn't an easy thing to balance the needs of the game vs. the wants of the players in this particular instance. This, and the inability to farm low level gear for alts (for those times I just want to start over or make another of the same class to use a different build with its own set of gear) weigh very heavily on me.

BoA on legendaries and set items will almost assuredly stay in its most basic form at least. It's the restrictions on trading those items that needs to be hammered out, and soon so we can really test the results before it goes live.

Now, if only I could turn off monster scaling or set the monster level and turn off smart drops so I could farm for alts, or my followers (good luck finding INT gear for your follower while on anything else besides a Wizard or WD for example).

01/15/2014 01:49 AMPosted by TheSaint
Haha, you felt it too I assume :P


Where was it?
________________________________________________
Technical Support MVP
Official Mac Tech Support Forum Cookie™ (Mint Chocolate Chip)
Guaranteed tasty; Potentially volatile when dipped in General Forums Syrup®
Caution: This cookie bites back.
Edited by TheTias#1192 on 1/15/2014 1:54 AM PST
Posts: 11,031
01/15/2014 12:36 AMPosted by TheTias
/popcorn
/creamsicle
________________________________________________
Technical Support MVP
Official Mac Tech Support Forum Cookie™ (Mint Chocolate Chip)
Guaranteed tasty; Potentially volatile when dipped in General Forums Syrup®
Caution: This cookie bites back.


What the heck is a creamsicle? Although...gah. I *really* want some Popping Shower right now (yes, Japanese ice creams have awesome names).

01/15/2014 01:40 AMPosted by TheSaint
You mean usually 1 or more uniques per 5 minute run on avg? :P Yeah it's like a foreign language to some people.

PS: Just had an earthquake :P


This is where D3 is different to D2 though. In D2 you would see a lot of Uniques/sets, but most of them would be very meh.

D3 is at least aiming for a situation where you will see legendaries at a reasonable rate and be excited when they drop, because chances are it's going to be awesome. Right now it's still being tuned though.
Community Manager
Posts: 3,389
01/15/2014 01:46 AMPosted by TheSaint
I am talking this topic specifically, though I do appreciate the time you took to type that, I do mean like actual subject matter from this topic, maybe you could isolate and enhance what you find to be important, as there is a decent about of hyperbole as well, proper guidance would help instruct on quality thread/posting procedures.This helps so we are not wasting our time trying to combat things that are set in stone, and help the community refocus its efforts on more worthwhile pursuits, other then using the forum as a cage match.


Honestly, this particular thread is good as-is. While we're still pretty keen on the current BoA rule set, we're also still in development, which means that discussions like this one are definitely worth having. In particular, this thread stood out because a lot of the ideas and alternatives being discussed in it meshed (or were trying to mesh) with the main goals of the BoA system, rather than simply saying "trash it."* There have been other threads like this, too, and I made sure to follow those closely.

Only reason I jumped in was to try to diffuse the sidebars about posting identities, which was starting to derail the main conversation.

*Note: "Trash it" is a totally valid opinion, too. Just gives me less to work with.
Edited by Lylirra on 1/15/2014 2:00 AM PST
Less debating each other's BattleTag identities. More debating ideas.

This is a great thread; let's keep it focused.

Appreciate the communication and the sentiment, but with all due respect very little has been said in this thread that hasn't been debated in the thousand (or so) previous threads on this subject. Hope you've been reading those too.
Community Manager
Posts: 3,389
01/15/2014 01:59 AMPosted by Dogf
Hope you've been reading those too.


I have. Just didn't need to jump into those. :)
Posts: 11,031
01/15/2014 01:51 AMPosted by TheTias
I'd have been perfectly happy with a Bind on Trade (BoT) system that lets you trade once and that's it. It would eliminate any possibility of a defacto currency from emerging within the game and would force third party sites to expose their actual accounts instead of using shill accounts to hold items. It would not, as I've noted previously, eliminate the practice. Items would retain their actual value to the individual player doing the trade due to a lack of currency, thus forcing the player to value it in the "here and now".


I would be absolutely fine with BoT, although I will probably have a gripe with it once Ladder goes live and we see Streamers being fed gear by subscribers :).

01/15/2014 01:51 AMPosted by TheTias
I do know that the developers are aiming to eliminate as much of the pay to win/third party influence on the game as they can. What remains to be seen, and is known only by the devs themselves, is just what level of compromise, if any, they intend to implement with such a system.


This is the other side of the issue. Unfortunately taking measures to eliminate illicit behaviour often catches innocent players in the crossfire. See: Always Online. There really is no easy solution to this one.

01/15/2014 01:51 AMPosted by TheTias
Now, if only I could turn off monster scaling or set the monster level and turn off smart drops so I could farm for alts, or my followers (good luck finding INT gear for your follower while on anything else besides a Wizard or WD for example).


Ooh yes, this one gets aggravating at times. You've seen my luck lol - great bow on my Wizard, great Wizard OH on my DH >:|.

Good god, you don't need separate modes.

You can have good drops drop at a high rate, but you can have really good drops be really rare.

Have any of you people ever played a Diablo game *bursts into tears*


My thoughts are that Ladder is:
- A) very popular and on a *lot* of people's wishlists (just look at the 'what else do you want in ROS' type threads).
- B) Ladder should almost certainly be BoA, because direct competition alongside the black market just ruins any sense of legitimacy whatsoever.
- C) As a side effect of the above, Ladder would be a good way to give BoA players what they want while still offering Free Traders the option.

Sometimes when you have two groups of players who want things that are mutually exclusive with one another, you need to separate them. See: Hardcore. PvP servers.

Path of Exile, for all it's flaws, actually does this really well.
01/14/2014 07:36 AMPosted by DrothVader
If there was a way for free trade to exist without lowering the droprates to the point where the only way I can reasonably progress is to trade then I'd support it.

But it doesn't exist, at least not in any capacity that has been mentioned previously.


It only rakes ONE word to prove you wrong.

DIABLO 2
100 Undead Priest
10760
Posts: 2,289
TheTias, good post. Appreciate it. :)

01/15/2014 01:51 AMPosted by TheTias
I see the purpose of BoA,


I don't.

It doesn't solve itemization, longevity, cheating, etc. It's a mechanic that's put in place for no reason. I've always argued against BoA because it simply has no point in a game like this.

01/15/2014 01:49 AMPosted by Starbird
Haha touche :). But you know what I mean. If BoA was really such a crushing issue, I would personally expect to see a lot more complaints about it in beta. We will see once the next patch goes live.


Haha, yeah. And it looks like you completely overlooked the concerns of streamers, and players.
MVP
Posts: 14,156
View profile
01/15/2014 02:04 AMPosted by Starbird
I would be absolutely fine with BoT, although I will probably have a gripe with it once Ladder goes live and we see Streamers being fed gear by subscribers :).


Well, in a competitive environment like Ladder, BoA would kind of be necessary. I know the devs don't like having different rulesets for different modes, but if they wish to adhere to the spirit of competition, BoA instead of BoT would be necessary on Ladder. I don't really see a way around that without tainting the Ladder season results.

01/15/2014 02:04 AMPosted by Starbird
This is the other side of the issue. Unfortunately taking measures to eliminate illicit behaviour often catches innocent players in the crossfire. See: Always Online. There really is no easy solution to this one.


Hence why we're all here arguing about it and why both the devs and CMs are keeping a close eye on threads like these. ;)

01/15/2014 02:04 AMPosted by Starbird
Ooh yes, this one gets aggravating at times. You've seen my luck lol - great bow on my Wizard, great Wizard OH on my DH >:|.


It took me five hours to come across just one INT item on my DH. Thankfully it was a ring that my follower could use. Unfortunately that was the sum total of my follower gear hunt that night. I really dislike having to switch classes to farm gear for followers, especially when my INT users aren't well geared yet themselves and/or I may not want to play them at the time.

01/15/2014 02:11 AMPosted by TheSaint
Droth already admitted to not liking Diablo 2, to expect him to understand how it worked is almost impossible. Which is the irony that he bought Diablo 3.


Knock off the personal attacks please. Lylirra already jumped in here once. Forcing her back in is not in our best interest.

01/15/2014 02:11 AMPosted by Shrew
It doesn't solve itemization, longevity, cheating, etc. It's a mechanic that's put in place for no reason. I've always argued against BoA because it simply has no point in a game like this.


It solves the "pay to win" issue, which is the "cheating" you refer to. Itemization itself used as an argument here is just a straw man I'm afraid, as that is its own subject matter and has no bearing on whether or not something is BoA.
________________________________________________
Technical Support MVP
Official Mac Tech Support Forum Cookie™ (Mint Chocolate Chip)
Guaranteed tasty; Potentially volatile when dipped in General Forums Syrup®
Caution: This cookie bites back.
Edited by TheTias#1192 on 1/15/2014 2:16 AM PST
I really believe the only way to actually make unintended progression in this system inefficient is to put forward probability barriers.

Given RMT is already seen as shady, a player who is promised "100 runs" already has the idea in their head that the seller will be lying to them and probably won't give them more than a few runs, so it's a self fulfilling prophecy when the RMT guy goes "sorry dude, didn't get your item, but you still have to pay me because it's just not good business for me to invest my time because I might stumble upon the item you're looking for" that the buyer doesn't really believe the RMT guy put any effort into it at all.

The RMT seller cannot confirm the amount of effort he put into the run, and therefore cannot confirm his reputation as putting the invested effort in trying to acquire the item, unless he provides proof he did these runs, which are easily traceable.

I think that's what the gifting scroll concept is, it's at least the seed of an idea of insulating inefficiency behind a probability barrier, and adding more probability barriers the more you branch out from your close circle of friends and family until the probability barriers become so inefficient that trading among the larger populace just isn't worth it.
This topic has reached its post limit. You may no longer post or reply to posts for this topic.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]