Diablo® III

BoA Versus Free Trade: *Is* There A Compromise?

Posts: 5,791
01/15/2014 02:08 AMPosted by sheltem
If there was a way for free trade to exist without lowering the droprates to the point where the only way I can reasonably progress is to trade then I'd support it.

But it doesn't exist, at least not in any capacity that has been mentioned previously.


It only rakes ONE word to prove you wrong.

DIABLO 2


Diablo 2 was a good game. Heck, it's probably still my favourite game of all time. But it wasn't perfect - and one of the major issues with it (at least to me) was how much the 'competitive' side of it (Ladder) revolved almost entirely around shady 3rd party sites, bots etc.

01/15/2014 02:11 AMPosted by Shrew
Haha, yeah. And it looks like you completely overlooked the concerns of streamers, and players.


?

I'm talking about my general observations regarding posts about beta thus far. I don't follow streamers and about this issue (where streamers have a *strong* personal interest in preventing BoA) I'm not convinced they can be objective.
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01/15/2014 02:15 AMPosted by TheSaint
I would relate it more to a tourniquet, which not only stems the bleeding of a bad economy, but it also cuts off circulation completely. Which very well could save the patient, or it could be a recipe for gangrene.


I've yet to see a good argument as to why BoA automatically means Diablo 3 will die.

Many players enjoyed D2 very happily for *years* without trading at all. Why? Because there was a lot of interesting loot to find.

So long as D3 has even more cool loot, cool builds and cool stuff to do with it, I just do not see why trading is such a necessary feature.
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01/15/2014 02:08 AMPosted by sheltem
It only rakes ONE word to prove you wrong.

DIABLO 2


Well, two words actually. Diablo 2. But man, it goes a long way...
01/15/2014 02:08 AMPosted by sheltem
If there was a way for free trade to exist without lowering the droprates to the point where the only way I can reasonably progress is to trade then I'd support it.

But it doesn't exist, at least not in any capacity that has been mentioned previously.


It only rakes ONE word to prove you wrong.

DIABLO 2


LoL D2 is the poster child for BoA. Today it is a cesspool and has impossible spam due to rmt by the d2jsp sites. D2 is one of the reasons I support BoA.
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01/15/2014 02:24 AMPosted by TheSaint
IMO XP ladders are DEAD. There are far too many automated programs out there, or that will be built to chew the grind. Even having the items themselves bound wouldn't do a thing to stop bots from racing. There needs to be more human elements rather then grind.


So long as they tune it so that you get much more xp from completing tasks than from just grinding white monsters, I think Pxp Ladders could work.

Yes, they would not be perfect, and xp gear would need a second look, but I think it's worth a try at least.

For me the appeal of a Ladder isn't the race so much as it is a periodic reset alongside a lot of other like-minded individuals.
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01/15/2014 02:22 AMPosted by Starbird
Many players enjoyed D2 very happily for *years* without trading at all. Why? Because there was a lot of interesting loot to find.


I thoroughly enjoyed finding low level sets that made me feel cool (and at least somewhat powerful). D3 really lacks in that department. Unfortunately, the sets in D3 are for the most part unimaginative. It was nice that D2's sets not only had set piece bonus, but interaction between specific pieces gave tertiary bonuses when equipped together, such as a belt and gloves giving both the 2pc set bonus and say, +25% MF or +50 STR.

I miss +X/CLv affixes. Those were freaking awesome, and would make a great resource regen secondary affix.

01/15/2014 02:24 AMPosted by TheSaint
It's not a personal attack, Droth admitted it, and I have had many debates with him over it, its better to know where someone stands on need to know information if they are debating over actual data. My replies are brutally logical and not very loving, I designed them that way for a reason.


You stated that because he didn't like it he couldn't possibly understand its mechanics and attempted to use that as a valid argument against him. That's a personal attack. There are lots of things in WoW that I absolutely despise, but I do understand why they're there and what their mechanics entail. Not liking something isn't the same thing as not understanding it. If that were the case, one could say you don't understand BoA because you don't like it.

See where that is going? Thankfully I know better than that, which is why I don't say things like "TheSaint doesn't like BoA, so he can't possibly understand it". There would be zero logic to that statement.
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Edited by TheTias#1192 on 1/15/2014 2:32 AM PST
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01/15/2014 02:27 AMPosted by TheTias
Many players enjoyed D2 very happily for *years* without trading at all. Why? Because there was a lot of interesting loot to find.


I thoroughly enjoyed finding low level sets that made me feel cool (and at least somewhat powerful). D3 really lacks in that department. Unfortunately, the sets in D3 are for the most part unimaginative. It was nice that D2's sets not only had set piece bonus, but interaction between specific pieces gave tertiary bonuses when equipped together, such as a belt and gloves giving both the 2pc set bonus and say, +25% MF or +50 STR.

I miss +X/CLv affixes. Those were freaking awesome, and would make a great resource regen secondary affix.
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Mm. Again, that next beta patch is going to be quite telling in this regard. I'm almost certainly going to start by leveling another character and seeing how it feels.
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So why do games like Diablo and Diablo 2 do perfectly fine with trading, but why does Diablo 3 need to impose limits on trading.
Edited by Shrew#1302 on 1/15/2014 2:35 AM PST
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01/15/2014 02:31 AMPosted by Shrew
And why do games like Diablo and Diablo 2 do perfectly fine with trading, and why does Diablo 3 need to impose limits on trading.


Because Diablo 1 is completely irrelevant.
Diablo 2 absolutely did *not* do fine with trading. Ladder is just a mess of Forum Gold and 3rd party sites.
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Because Diablo 1 is completely irrelevant.
Diablo 2 absolutely did *not* do fine with trading. Ladder is just a mess of Forum Gold and 3rd party sites.


Tell that to the people who played offline, they didn't care about any of that.
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What is your primary crux of BoA? Without giving away security procedure, what in fact is the end goal? Greatest fears? Greatest hopes? If you are serious I will be serious, if you are not I won't bother spinning my wheels. Just being straight, and honest.


Main goals:

- Make it so that playing the game is the best way to get the best items. In this scenario, "playing the game" refers to the core mechanic, which is killing monsters. The designers really dig that kill monsters > get loot > kill more monsters > get more loot reward loop, and felt it was being compromised by the ease of trading, particularly for Legendary and Set items. We want those top-tier items to be earned through gameplay.
- In light of the AH shutting down, still try to limit the negative impact the third-party market has on the game as much as possible. (This goes back to goal #1 and is one of the reasons why the current rules are set up the way they are.)

Greatest hopes? That the new loot model for the majority of players feels rewarding and satisfying -- and natural, too -- and that there's an actual sense of personal progression as you advance from finding Rares to finding Legendaries. An item being BoA ideally won't be a dealbreaker because the loot hunt itself is in a good place (this is where the rewarding/satisfying/natural part comes in).

Greatest fears? As with anything game design related, the greatest fear is that -- despite your research, your testing, your experience, and your gut -- what you've designed isn't fun for most players and winds up hindering the game more than helping it. We don't believe that will be the case with BoA (and feel it will actually be the opposite), but no one here is infallible.
Edited by Lylirra on 1/15/2014 2:41 AM PST
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01/15/2014 02:31 AMPosted by TheSaint
From an outsiders perspective BoA is a relatively simple concept, its not. You need a why, how, and when design, which I haven't heard from much from the Dev team. I also believe for a good reason.


This is a tricky one, because I think that - like the Online Only issue - it comes down to preventing illicit activities which is something they are loathe to discuss at all. They have also given a lengthy few posts about why the AH was removed - and if you think about it, the same arguments apply to trading (since all the AH really was is a safer, more convenient way to trade). Really not going to dig posts up now though, but I'm sure someone can.

EDIT: Foot in mouth. Thanks Ly ^_^.
Edited by Starbird#1360 on 1/15/2014 2:38 AM PST
Well, I didn't read it all, but personally, I don't like when a game is too focused on trading.. Trading is cool, but I do prefer it being secondary and limited.

The improvements of RoS looks really nice, and all the "let's close AH", BoAs, etc is what will bring me and some friends back to D3, probably.

I don't want to go off-topic, but since ppl like to talk about PoE sometimes... I think PoE is a good exemple of an excess of focus on trading, also the crafting system in PoE = masochist gameplay, imo. That said, it's a good game overall.

I also like the potential of BoAs to minimize spammers, sellers, bots, ...

So, in the end BoA > free trade, imo. Ofc, that's doesn't mean ZERO trading, but a limited trading.

Like I said before, trading can be cool, but as a secondary activity. Otherwise people won't play diablo, but a Monopoly game with a diablo name.

I don't know if BoA is the perfect solution, but right now, to me it seems to be the best option. (and a good one, actually)
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01/15/2014 02:35 AMPosted by Starbird
Diablo 2 absolutely did *not* do fine with trading. Ladder is just a mess of Forum Gold and 3rd party sites.


Diablo 2 also had an offline mode where players could avoid the trading/duping issues and still be able to find loot at a decent clip. Granted, the online portion of the game did not even really attempt to deal with the third party sites, but Battle.net 1.0's infrastructure and Diablo 2/LoD's client design were well before the creation of Warden, so it took active mitigation by the developers such as when Rust Storm hit the first time in order to even begin dealing with the onslaught of illicit activities.

Now, if D3 had an offline mode, all three gameplay desires could be met: A stable HC environment and free trade for all items (since offline is very limited in scope), Ladder for competition with BoA to keep it in check, and a BoT system for non-ladder online mode. Unfortunately that's pie in the sky wishful thinking on my part.
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01/15/2014 02:37 AMPosted by Lylirra
What is your primary crux of BoA? Without giving away security procedure, what in fact is the end goal? Greatest fears? Greatest hopes? If you are serious I will be serious, if you are not I won't bother spinning my wheels. Just being straight, and honest.


Main goals:

- Make it so that playing the game is the best way to get the best items. In this scenario, "playing the game" refers to core mechanic, which is killing monsters. The designers really dig that kill monsters > get loot > kill more monsters > get more loot reward loop, and felt it was being compromised by the ease of trading, particularly for Legendary and Set items. We want those top-tier items to be earned through gameplay.
- In light of the AH shutting down, reduce the negative impact the third-party market has on the game as much as possible. (This goes back to goal #1 and is one of the reasons why the current rules are set up the way they are.)

Greatest hopes? That the new loot model for the majority of players feels rewarding and satisfying -- and natural, too -- and that there's an actual sense of personal progression as you advance from finding Rares to finding Legendaries. An item being BoA ideally won't be a dealbreaker because the loot hunt itself is in a good place (this is where the rewarding/satisfying/natural part comes in).

Greatest fears? As with anything game design related, the greatest fear is that -- despite your research, your testing, your experience, and your gut -- what you've designed isn't fun for most players and winds up hindering the game more than helping it. We don't believe that will be the case with BoA (and feel it will actually be the opposite), but no one here is infallible.


Well said. I think it comes down to this for me: I never liked the idea of the RMAH, but I was okay with the AH. I didn't love it, but I was willing to give it a shot.

However after 2 years of it I dislike the effect it had on the game and I'm equally willing to give BoA a shot. It may work or it may not, but right now I absolutely think that it's worth the risk.

That said (yes, a little OT) there is a long way to go in terms of your goal. Rares still rain down like...well, rain at max level and it's fairly quick and easy to get rared out. Legendary hunting and the move into Torment on the other hand feels *very* slow and RNG reliant. BoA, at present, probably won't float with this in play.
Edited by Starbird#1360 on 1/15/2014 2:44 AM PST
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01/15/2014 02:37 AMPosted by Lylirra
Greatest hopes? That the new loot model for the majority of players feels rewarding and satisfying -- and natural, too -- and that there's an actual sense of personal progression as you advance from finding Rares to finding Legendaries. An item being BoA ideally won't be a dealbreaker because the loot hunt itself is in a good place (this is where the rewarding/satisfying/natural part comes in).


Regarding the "feels natural" part - could you please reiterate to the devs that them putting the D3v item level "tier" system was not only jarring, but created massively frustrating brick walls at several points along the way?

The "item tiering" system is when items only drop at specific levels such as 61, 66, and 70 (the system runs the full range of 1-70 in that fashion, but those are the most visible breakpoints in the RoS beta). Legendaries are still using the RoS mechanic of dropping at the character's level, but the magic and rare items are not - they are back to set level drop points and it makes finding upgrades next to impossible much of the time. It's one of the reasons the FaF beta felt so damned good - even the rares had relevancy. Now they don't during leveling and it just feels horrible.
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01/15/2014 02:43 AMPosted by TheTias
Regarding the "feels natural" part - could you please reiterate to the devs that them putting the D3v item level "tier" system was not only jarring, but created massively frustrating brick walls at several points along the way?


Can do. I know I saw it in Neva's feedback list, but doubling-down can't hurt. :)
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Sleepless night?
In America is quite late... or are you here in Europe for a tour in the Paris Blizz HQ? ;D

[/OT]
Edited by Edriel#2341 on 1/15/2014 2:46 AM PST
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