Diablo® III

Ray of Frost

01/29/2014 08:55 AMPosted by PieHole
Come on Doly....."about" 7.26. I'm gonna need better data than this! Lol, j/k.


Lol. Well you tend not to every hit the exact calculated multiplier in actual play... so yes, "about". You'll just have to live with my rough approximation on this one.

01/29/2014 08:55 AMPosted by PieHole
So, what is holding channeling spenders like this back? I've been, along with others, trying to get 2-handers back on the map...I've been pushing staff's of course. What would it take for a staff to help out with channeling spells? Bliz reviewed them, and said that they were happy where they are at...but, clearly nobody uses them. They are looking at them again.

Certainly a 1.0 AS weapon would be more desirable than 1.4, which I presume everyone is using. But, what would a staff have to look like for people to use one for RoF or Disentegrate (or arcane torrent or arcane orb...which are kind of channeling-like)??


The problem with 2 handers and channelling builds is that they give you lower APS (good), but they also take away 10 CC and 10 APoC (bad). It becomes a balancing act to make them better than 1H + Source. On top of it, they tend not to offer any DPS advantage either. Then you have to consider that the lower APS also means less LoH and shield generation (when we had LS, this was less of an issue). The addition of Cost Reduction makes things a little more interesting for the APoC/CC argument but trading damage primaries for reductions becomes an issue then.

I've always thought that 2 Handers were a little low on raw DPS. That would be one place to start. Part of the problem is that APS multiplies all your other damage sources too. You don't just want them to be equal damage to 1 Hander + Source raw damage, it has to be 1 Hander + source * APS difference.

That just addresses damage though. You still have to address the stat loss. Main stat isn't so bad because 2H usually rolls a lot higher (maybe not the proper x2 but close). The problem is that this only covers a few stat types and doesn't make up for everything. Maybe increasing the affixes to 7 or 8 (5+2, 5+3 or 6+2 primary/secondary slots in RoS) might help, and include APoC and/or CC in the possibles list. This is just off the top of my head though, you'd have to really sit down and analyze the trade-offs before you pushed this as a serious suggestion.

-dolynick
Edited by dolynick#1290 on 1/29/2014 9:33 AM PST
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I was genuinely shocked when I read Blizzard's post stating that 2H weaps were "ok" where they are. I never see them come close in ROS. They just pale in comparison.

This problem is now compounded by new legendary affixes. Since 1H+source = potentially 2 "game changing" properties, a 2H would need to not only solve Dolynick's above mentioned issues, but offer "better" legendary affixes to draw people to them. It's too late to just fix the numbers, now.
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The maximus I found was nice, but only for dancing around and letting the chain chew through mobs. I'm guessing it won't be super viable for high torment because the demon is probably going to die too much to make it useful vs. elites. It does do over 2000x the damage of the D3V one I happened to bring with me.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/11395919527

What doly suggested about increasing the stats or number of stat or even just the damage of 2H weapons would make people want to use them. If they always offer less damage, less mit, less APS, and less resource; then the only use will be to keep breakpoints down for channeling builds and that barely affects wiz since we can double our APoC with 1H+OH and use a spear or mace or whatever which usually keeps your BPs low enough.

The other option would be to make the legendary effects really good (similar to what they did with maximus). Having the enemies be afraid of your staff just won't cut it (what am I thinking of? Moloth's?)
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Simple...

Keep 2H staffs how they are (sucky) and make one modification...

Make it so you can socket a 2H staff with a Wizard Source. Only the primary stats count. Damage ranges do not increase based on the source socketed.

Now you have to weigh the options of a 1H weapon and the entire stats of the source v.s. the 2H staff and only the primary stats of the source.
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01/29/2014 09:51 AMPosted by Melkor
I was genuinely shocked when I read Blizzard's post stating that 2H weaps were "ok" where they are. I never see them come close in ROS. They just pale in comparison.


It's genuinely shocking until you consider their power in certain stacked CDR builds, which gain almost nothing from IAS/weapons speed. At least that's my feeling, not having 'mathed it out.'

Then it's only mildly shocking. (Sources still add 300-400 avg dmg!)

I think 2H still need some help (more powerful legendary affix(es) for starters).

What if they got a modified 'quiver treatment' at the cost of a passive?

Arcane Gravitation: Emit a gravitational field that causes your source to rotate around you, allowing a source to be wielded with a two-handed weapon. Your source no longer contributes damage directly.


Similar to Crusader wielding a 2H with a shield, with a passive and a drawback. Too much developer resource to implement short term, I know.
Edited by Vox#1186 on 1/29/2014 1:33 PM PST
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01/29/2014 09:51 AMPosted by Melkor
I was genuinely shocked when I read Blizzard's post stating that 2H weaps were "ok" where they are. I never see them come close in ROS. They just pale in comparison.

This problem is now compounded by new legendary affixes. Since 1H+source = potentially 2 "game changing" properties, a 2H would need to not only solve Dolynick's above mentioned issues, but offer "better" legendary affixes to draw people to them. It's too late to just fix the numbers, now.


There are a few 2-handers that are pretty amazing though - I'm using "The Furnace" in beta, and while the dps ain't great (2600), it has a chance to deal 8% damage to an enemy's remaining HP. There just need to be more affixes on part with that for 2-handers...

My thoughts on 2-handers, though, is that to solve their dps inadequacies, they should ALL be able to roll 2 sockets. Bigger weapon, more room for sockets imo... Now if only the Crusader couldn't dual-wield them... I think that's the main problem here - you can't make them that much better as they could just break the game, similar to how OWE can be abused with the new secondaries...

Maybe just have a Crusader lose 50% dps on the weapon in his offhand.
Edited by Suikoden#1920 on 1/29/2014 1:56 PM PST
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01/29/2014 08:55 AMPosted by PieHole
Come on Doly....."about" 7.26. I'm gonna need better data than this! Lol, j/k.


You'll be happy to know that I was wrong about 7.26 PieHole. RoF uses the full 2 tick/speed coefficient on familiar spam (unlike AT and Disintegrate which seem to give only 1.5). That actually raises the base multiplier to x10.17 before any other additions or RoF/cold skill buffing.

I've actually been playing around with this build in PTR this afternoon. I quite like it.

67.5CC, 20 APoC & 10 cost reduction @ 2.03 allows for effectively permanent single target spam with Snow Blast. It's not quite permanent but it's awfully close. Frozen Orb for big groups (often with a quick spray of Snow Blast to debuff them 15% vs cold).

-dolynick
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http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/light-of-grace
It already is...
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