Diablo® III

Carrot on a stick-the philosophical problem with d3

I haven't played this game in years. I have long thrown in the towel. I didn't think they would be able to fix the game and it appears that even now with the new expansion coming they still won't. I still join the forums to see the train wreck continue to unfold so yes I've been a negative nelly for some time now. Because that is all disillusioned fans have left. But when even the MVP's are frustrated and losing faith you know that there is no hope. I have a lot of respect for the MVP's and their recent threads only solidified what I expected from this game.

As a former customer here is the glaringly clear issue:

Carrot on a stick. That is an analogy we can say is the effort vs reward component of playing any game. You play, you are challenged in the game, if you overcome the challenge you get rewarded. That is a simple formula that for thousands of games has produced successful titles.

I'm not surprised that the game in almost two years is still broken (and by broken drop rates, drop quality, lack of builds, hardcore lag deaths, pvp, etc). Why? In the most simple of terms the developers cannot determine how long to make the stick, or rather how far away they can dangle the carrot and keep the mule moving forward. It is as if they have never played a game of this genre to get an idea of what an appropriate reward system should look like. Maybe the majority never have before. If only they had examples to use as a guide to how random drops work. Hmmm.......

Look at the body of work of patches and design philosophies that this game has gone through. It is and always has been a beta test. Radical ideas and changes abound. You add the auction house, a portion of players leave, you take it away the same will happen. You add bind on equip like this is world of warcraft? And ROS will continue that trend. No focal understanding of how this genre works

It is clear reading the forums that the developers are sticking to their design philosophies. What isn't clear is why. Ignoring the thousands of posts about poor drop quality, not just drop rates, but the fact that getting a legendary drop to them is enough reward for the customer, no matter how useless. *Edit: They said today they will double the legendary drop rates (but not the quality).

If you had the plan for a successful game already provided in the previous two titles why wrap up the blueprints and toss them into storage? Hubris. The developers thought and still think they know better than the original developers, as well as the fans on how to play this genre game. They tell you how to play, where you can get the best items, how to get them, when you can progress, yet they continue to approach it like it is world of warcraft. In that game you have to spend months upon months to get the best gear only in the toughest dungeon. There is no random drop like the other diablo games. In the other games you could kick open a clay pot and a unique would fall.

OMG we cannot let them find items randomly in the world, that means they would be rewarded TOO much too fast and will not have fun. They have to toil for hours on end to enjoy it. when randomness was being tampered to keep the droprates low to funnel everyone into the auction house to create a microtransaction game you know this game was in trouble.

Now they're trying to quantify FUN by saying "how many hours can a player sit down in one complete sitting and play the game until they give up?" That is literally what they are saying. Grind for two hours and we may or may not drop a legendary that has a microscopic chance to be an upgrade? Aren't you thankful? Why aren't you kissing our feet??

The philosophy behind the reward system should be embarrassing to the team. Go play diablo or diablo 2 or LOD and in the first level you may get a unique by RANDOM chance. holy crap I want to keep on killing! this is exciting BECAUSE I'll never know when the next random cool item will drop. I want to kick over every pot because wow I can get a set piece.....wow what the heck is wrong with these people. Who are they to tell the customer what is a fun way to play a game with random drop rates. (they are the developers I know)

What does it say that they are trying to convince you to buy the expansion by saying "We promise that you'll only have to grind for 2 hours tops before you find a legendary or we've manipulated the system to force one on you with a timer." Which only should insult anyone because what is being left out is that the QUALITY of that legendary will still be worthless overall.

The world of warcraft shallow pit of attributes chokes the life out of this game. Who wants to grind 200 hours only to find +10 strength more on their gear on a legendary? Way to strip the game of any fun attributes. Way to make gear finding as bland as wow.

I think one of the original diablo developers gave a speech talking about design philosphy and I think it would apply to this. Carrot on a stick. The players have to be motivated to continue playing by giving them a reason to keep going. What this game does effectively is denies you any advancement and the challenge is artifical. It's a gear check. Like wow. Grats Blizzard that must have been hard to do. Copy paste coding I bet.

But you mention anything about the blizzard north team on this website and every employee who is paid to troll any criticism of this game will insult the old team like they were horrible. This current team may have sold more copies than the previous titles but it was BECAUSE the previous titles. No matter what excuse they use the expansion sales will be a testament to the quality of the work the CURRENT group implements. You can't continue to throw mud at Blizzard North and D1, D2, LOD when your ROS comes out and you get 1% of the sales from the original D3.

History is already proving that this game was a disaster and continues to be so. ROS does not appear that it will save it.

Stop this madness. Really.
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Great post. I logged into D2: MexianXL today, spent five minutes running around the rogue camp - holy hell, the anticipation to wander just outside of the camp, beat down some lowbie zombies, and *pray* for a blue -

This will never be recreated in D3. Never.

Signed, sealed, delivered.
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Heeehawwwwheeeehawww!
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01/23/2014 02:34 PMPosted by Hammerskalds
The world of warcraft shallow pit of attributes chokes the life out of this game. Who wants to grind 200 hours only to find +10 strength more on their gear on a legendary? Way to strip the game of any fun attributes. Way to make gear finding as bland as wow.


You have heard about Loot 2.0 and the "build changing legendaries", right ?

But really, all ARPG games, even D2, reach a point where they become this end-game grind for items that becomes a bit "bland".

It's all still in Beta and it's all going to keep on changing more and more for the next Patches to come.
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01/23/2014 02:34 PMPosted by Hammerskalds
is that the QUALITY of that legendary will still be worthless overall.


compared to what?? worthless compared to T6 quality gear?

01/23/2014 02:34 PMPosted by Hammerskalds
I still join the forums to see the train wreck continue to unfold so yes I've been a negative nelly for some time now


01/23/2014 02:34 PMPosted by Hammerskalds
What this game does effectively is denies you any advancement and the challenge is artifical.


Then surely you would have seen all the posts begging for /playersx type of difficulty to be added to the game when they nerfed original Inferno? and hence MP1-10.

Then surely you would have seen all the posts complaining about not being allowed to have Torment difficulty in PTR??

You can say gear check progression is artificial, but players want to test themselves with the gear they find to take on bigger challenges. Killing Diablo naked is dumb.
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01/23/2014 02:48 PMPosted by TomCii
But really, all ARPG games, even D2, reach a point where they become this end-game grind for items that becomes a bit "bland".


This is untrue of diablo 2 totally. The reason diablo 2 is STILL popular is simple. No matter how much you play, there is still a character build type that you have not done....Guaranteed.

You have a world of customization of both skills and stats.

Want to have a "caster" barb? Yes you can.
Want to make a melee-only Sorc? Yes you can.

Are they the most efficient? Not always....They have their limits, but can be quite powerful.

Damage is influenced directly by stats that seem appropriate. I.e. Strength (and at times) dex affects damage, and Intelligence affects spell casting damage. Equipping a caster with an "EBOTD" will not affect caster's damage in a meaningful manner.

It works totally different in D3, and goes against everything I have enjoyed about "Diablo 1-2"

D3 removed any ability to create a unique character. All damage is based on the weapon in the hand? Wow. Just wow.

I enjoy playing a game, and making the decisions on how to build a character. Omni-corp has designed a game that dictates to me how I will play....In the end, that is not really playing...just a point and click experience with rewards being given based on time spent....If that does not sound a bit backward, I don't know what is.

Graphics aside, D2 and D1 were hands down better than 3. The 3rd "installment" is not even a finished title, and has more bugs than the Orkin man will ever find. I have an odd sensation that this "expansion" is a poorly veiled attempt to fleece people from more money.

I quit playing the game for the above listed reasons. D3 has as much interaction as "Clue VCR Mystery Game".

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3022/clue-vcr-mystery-game
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01/23/2014 04:02 PMPosted by Orion
Pereg, only 20% of the legendaries found are MP5-10 quality. So yes, for the most
part they are worthless. If they hold your character back - less than worthless.


I think that's the crux of the carrot problem some people have.

On one hand you have people who want difficulties and strive for mp10 or t6, but you have to have the gear to support it (wide variance in stats, or rare drops with powerful affixes)

On the other hand you have people that don't like challenge and demagogue additional mp levels or progression as being artificial since its just higher hp and damage numbers. And because of it, complain about low rolling stats on legendarys or complain about accessibility to certain legendarys, set items, build changing items, etc.

Example would be people who think stats on legendarys should be very narrow where the hardcore hunt for the perfect rolled items. But that doesn't really provide for enough of a difference in character power to allow for a variety of meaningful difficulty levels.
Edited by Pereg#1907 on 1/23/2014 7:02 PM PST
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D3 is an arcade game. There is First Person shooters with better itemization than this. ONLY thing it had going for it was difficulty as "end game" which they carebeared to the max. Now it really sux.

If you accept Diablo 3 as an arcade game with fantastic graphics physics and combat it's not so bad. Saved me a lot of quarters.

If you want it to be Diablo 2 or PoE like experience you will hate it.
Edited by Aimless#1700 on 1/23/2014 7:13 PM PST
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op is rite

well worth the read
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01/23/2014 02:34 PMPosted by Hammerskalds
The world of warcraft shallow pit of attributes chokes the life out of this game.


Been saying that since the beginning myself. Great post!
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Although this post, and similar observations, make me frothy with range and anger....they are true. I quit this game months ago (in the neighborhood of 6 months), in the hopes that ROS would bring new life. Unfortunately, I, as are many others, are left in a perpetual state of "MEH".

Did the whole POE deal...that game is no better than this (and if your wondering how much POE I played...82 before open Beta). Not worth it IMO. The game gives you the same feeling, just later on in the game.

All in all, I feel these past few years have been empty with regards to games such as these. Too much has gone into making things entirely different...for gods sake you had it somewhat right once! The formula is there for the taking...someone do something with it!

As to you OP...thank you...I do not have the time or effort to pour my energy into such a post, but you sir are SPOT ON.

Let the Trolls come because I will NOT be sporting these forums for a while...if ever again.
Edited by oOSlushyOo#1208 on 1/23/2014 10:27 PM PST
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How amazing is Median XL!!!!!!!! D3 devs need to sit down and take some notes from that mod.
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01/23/2014 02:34 PMPosted by Hammerskalds
Carrot on a stick.


In gaming... it isn't "carrot on a stick"

its "carrot AND the stick"

meaning you reward and punish in equal measure.

some people like the carrot, the reward for playing...

others prefer the stick, the challenge in playing.
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agree with OP

at 60 (PTR) or 70 (Beta), u have best in slot rare gear realy soon, due to smartdrops. At that point, only legendary items can improve your gear.

If I see streams, then I see people salvaging yellow / blue items right away, they dont even check their stats.

Imo, there need to be alot more items to lookout for to give you the idea "hey I found something, this could be realy good, lets kill that next pack, so I might find more".

for example, Diablo 2 had:

-charms
-jewels
-socketted items
-white items, to socket
-runes
-best in slot rare items
-even best in slot blue items
-unique (legendary) items
etc

there was a good reason to double check what dropped in that game, there could be something realy good in that pile of loot.

sure, diablo3 has gems and plans, those forfill that need, but only real short. Then people got enough plans and gems. After that, only legendary items count.

If legendary items are the only items to lookout for, I feel no droprate can average what people need to satisfy their gameplay.
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^ they also need items to make certain builds even work. Instead of deleting say perma wrath why not have a ring that gives it but you take 25% more damage. All items need to interesting and sought after and many more "GG"items per slot and with pros and cons.

Instead I watch the beta players streams and it's virtually same gear we have now with mainstat vit CC CD IAS AR everywhere just bigger numbers. Boring.

A lot of good feedback in this thread. I never played Diablo 2 I was like 5 when it came out but to hear you guys tell it and my bother tell it really makes me want to instead of order expansion.
Edited by Aimless#1700 on 1/24/2014 1:10 AM PST
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01/23/2014 02:34 PMPosted by Hammerskalds
I haven't played this game in years. I have long thrown in the towel.
I mean no offense but this was quite obvious having read your post. Your thoughts on what you 'think' the game is like holds some truths but is also pretty funny because of how you seem to believe the game still operates.

You keep talking about drop quality and yet this has been addressed in just about every patch. The most extreme changes to it are in the current RoS beta where they pretty much emulate the number ranges from Diablo 2 except with far better legendary procs to promote more potential build diversity.

01/23/2014 02:34 PMPosted by Hammerskalds
The developers thought and still think they know better than the original developers, as well as the fans on how to play this genre game. They tell you how to play, where you can get the best items, how to get them, when you can progress, yet they continue to approach it like it is world of warcraft. In that game you have to spend months upon months to get the best gear only in the toughest dungeon. There is no random drop like the other diablo games. In the other games you could kick open a clay pot and a unique would fall.

Blizzard North did the same thing in Diablo 2. They told you through the mechanics that you had to have a MF farming character and that this character had to farm bosses. They made a very small list of efficient xp farming areas where you had to fight so everything could be heavily controlled at all times. Even worse, they used loot tables to force players to fight enemies they didn't want to fight to have a chance at finding items.

Protip: I've found almost a dozen legendary items from things like weapon racks. Most of my legendary items drop from trash mobs. Uniques can be found everywhere.

01/23/2014 02:34 PMPosted by Hammerskalds
Now they're trying to quantify FUN by saying "how many hours can a player sit down in one complete sitting and play the game until they give up?" That is literally what they are saying. Grind for two hours and we may or may not drop a legendary that has a microscopic chance to be an upgrade? Aren't you thankful? Why aren't you kissing our feet??
They gave out information about drop rates. Do you honestly believe this wasn't discussed in Diablo 2 internally as well? It's clearly part of the design process of all loot hunt games.

01/23/2014 02:34 PMPosted by Hammerskalds
Go play diablo or diablo 2 or LOD and in the first level you may get a unique by RANDOM chance. holy crap I want to keep on killing! this is exciting BECAUSE I'll never know when the next random cool item will drop.
This is still true in Diablo 3. Reading your post is getting embarrassing because of how out of touch you are....just wow. Yesterday I found 2 set drops in the span of 60 seconds with a legendary drop within the next 3 minutes. That's crazy good random chance but it illustrates that the game is still run by random chance.

01/23/2014 02:34 PMPosted by Hammerskalds
The world of warcraft shallow pit of attributes chokes the life out of this game. Who wants to grind 200 hours only to find +10 strength more on their gear on a legendary?
You keep comparing things to WoW but using examples that exist in Diablo 2 *shakes head*. Legendary items in that game had small ranges to roll. People would grind endlessly just to get a slightly better roll in that game as well.

01/23/2014 02:34 PMPosted by Hammerskalds
History is already proving that this game was a disaster and continues to be so. ROS does not appear that it will save it.
Replace the word disaster with 'disappointment' and I agree with this statement. People clearly weren't ready for any changes in the genre. They just wanted Diablo 3 to be like Diablo 2. A polished version of a game we already know with a few minimal but safe changes. Just like they did with StarCraft 2.

I'm a huge fanboy of D3 simply because it's not the same as every loot hunt game on the market. If I want Diablo 2 reborn I'll go play Path of Exile or Torchlight 2. Heck, TL2 is exactly what people want just with a different aesthetic. As long as you can man up and realize games are more than just graphics you'll realize it was made by Blizzard North guys and has mods for you to tailor your experience.
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No surprise some people agree with the comments and some defend the game. I don't care if they studied the RANDOM drop generation of Titan's Quest, or Torchlight, or Torchlight 2, or Path of Exile, or any other title from the genre to get an idea of what RANDOM rewards look like.

Defend the game to death the fact that Blizzard doesn't understand the word RANDOM is the only thing anyone needs to take out of the talks that have been going on.

Blizz definition of RANDOM: We guarantee that if you buy the ROS you will NOT get anything no matter where to go in the game, what you kill, what you break open, for 2 hours you will NOT find anything WE GUARANTEE. Then after you have spent the amount of time we feel you need to be grinding mindlessly through the game we will give you a chance for an upgrade, a small chance at that.

Every other game's definition of RANDOM: Anywhere you go, anything you do, whether you choose to repeat the same area or advance through around any corner there is a chance that you will find an item that you can use as an upgrade. The RANDOMNESS of those aforementioned games give the players the decision to play wherever in the game they want and there is a chance to get some cool, awesome item. They don't have to progress specific situations in specific locations to have that chance, thereby making the rest of the game worthless. No it's RANDOM.

RANDOM, RANDOM, RANDOM. No matter how much fanboys or as they should be called F&F of the developers act like the diablo series where crap you can't sugarcoat the fact that RANDOM in this game has been tampered and is now broken.
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