Diablo® III

On a SNS+Meteor build, did someone test AO ?

Acronym-less: On a SNS or CM/WW build where the WW part is used to fuel meteors, did someone test the build changing Meteors to Arcane Orbs ?

Is that effective ?

I`m asking because yesterday I was running this spec, and I found its fun to play (specially with a source with +8% AO critical chance).
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Yea I tried it ages ago, sadly the dps of AO just can't compare to Meteors. I remember being able to nearly spam AO-Obliterate and it still wasn't enough in comparable damage.

Its actually more effective and smooth just less dps - by a lot. I remember writing a post on the 1.08 PTR that reached 3-4 pages about how lacklustre Arcane Orb is. It has a lot of potential but its damage is terrible. Its still isn't very good in ROS either. Its better, just still not enough though.
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CM/WW or SNS have a spare skill slot and yeah, I've tried a lot of different runes and ended up going with Meteor (Liquefy specifically) and found it works best with it. Meteor offered more damage and procs to continue spamming. AO damage is just underwhelming. A shame really.

I still use SNS with Liquefy now and it's still pretty fun to play.

Even in PTR, even if you can spam Scorch like a signature spell, the damage is quite low. I was playing with three other wizards in a public game before they nerfed Stretch Time with Duplicates and was standing in 70+ bubbles... Scorch Orbs were coming out pretty damage fast... but just lacked damage. I didn't really test, but Lightning Blast with Cannoneer felt better.
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But but but but but, do you guys know how much difference is the damage from Liquefy and AO, for example ?
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01/25/2014 03:43 AMPosted by MrDuMa
Even in PTR, even if you can spam Scorch like a signature spell, the damage is quite low. I was playing with three other wizards in a public game before they nerfed Stretch Time with Duplicates and was standing in 70+ bubbles... Scorch Orbs were coming out pretty damage fast... but just lacked damage. I didn't really test, but Lightning Blast with Cannoneer felt better.

The damage of Scorch' DoT doesn't stack (the APoC does, not sure about the LoH), so spamming it is not going to make you a happy panda. I feel like the only things it's good for is one hit KO trash farming and proccing Conflagation, and neither of them particularly appeals to me.
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01/25/2014 04:42 AMPosted by Machado
But but but but but, do you guys know how much difference is the damage from Liquefy and AO, for example ?

You're talking D3V? SNS works via CM procs for more EB (for damage) and more DS (for sustain and a bit of damage). I don't know what the proc coefficiency AO has with CM, but it's just one singular hit to enemies whilst Liquefy's DoT does a lot of the work, not just the initial impact.

Essentially, you won't be out DPSing standing SNS with AO. Casting a single AO will most likely drop your eDPS. SNS with Liquefy can out DPS SNS with WW in situations where there are more than... 3 or 4 enemies (correct me if I'm wrong, Tekk... I forgot)?

01/25/2014 05:32 AMPosted by mzy
01/25/2014 03:43 AMPosted by MrDuMa
Even in PTR, even if you can spam Scorch like a signature spell, the damage is quite low. I was playing with three other wizards in a public game before they nerfed Stretch Time with Duplicates and was standing in 70+ bubbles... Scorch Orbs were coming out pretty damage fast... but just lacked damage. I didn't really test, but Lightning Blast with Cannoneer felt better.

The damage of Scorch' DoT doesn't stack (the APoC does, not sure about the LoH), so spamming it is not going to make you a happy panda. I feel like the only things it's good for is one hit KO trash farming and proccing Conflagation, and neither of them particularly appeals to me.

Oh... the DoT's don't stack. what a dumb. I'd rather periodically fill the screen with Meteor Shower than use Scorch then :(
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01/25/2014 07:05 AMPosted by MrDuMa
You're talking D3V?

Yes.

01/25/2014 07:05 AMPosted by MrDuMa
Essentially, you won't be out DPSing standing SNS with AO.

That makes me a sad panda again. Ok, time to go back to meteors.
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Only IF... Orbits didn't require a casting animation, it'd make SNS even better! It'd be ShockNadosOrbitShards! SNOS! Ah well.. pity.
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01/25/2014 05:32 AMPosted by mzy
The damage of Scorch' DoT doesn't stack (the APoC does, not sure about the LoH), so spamming it is not going to make you a happy panda. I feel like the only things it's good for is one hit KO trash farming and proccing Conflagation, and neither of them particularly appeals to me.


I like using it as a primary attack (in place of say MM or Electrocute). It's higher DPS with better AoE coverage but comes at the cost of not being able to proc LoH - so if you're LoH dependant it's right out. It also requires that you have at least 20 APoC, a healthy amount of CC and probably at least 10 cost reduction before it's an option.

Machado,

The others are right. Arcane Orb just doesn't offer any benefit over something like Meteor in an SNS build. I could see a case for Orbit (even with the attack turn) but the freeze is counter productive to things running into them too. The math on it may not come out in favor of it anyways even if you overcome the issue.

-dolynick
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01/25/2014 02:57 PMPosted by dolynick
I could see a case for Orbit


Right now a WW cast will do far more damage than an orbit cast when you factor in procs and such, since both use an attack turn. I think both have a similar aoe radius too.

In RoS it seems orbit will not use an attack turn, but since SNS is going to not existant, that doesn't really help.

I've never really liked meteor myself, always seeing more benefit in MW or teleport over meteor, but at least it's a reasonable option. Arcane Orb with any rune right now is just terrible compared to any and all options, especially with SNS.
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Yeah take standard SNS and drop wormhole for molten or liquefy, evo for conflag. Very powerful spec if you don't mind being a slowpoke, walking. Changing to AO is very doable if you like being both slow and doing less damage!
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Adding Meteor to a standard SNS setup really doesn't help as much as people think. Every WW you fail to cast because you're busy with Meteor costs you 2.5 CM/APoC procs per target hit. Meteor fills the gap a little, by hitting more mobs at the same time than WW does, but it only breaks even against large groups of trash. And if there's one thing SNS doesn't have an issue with, it's trash.

I just did a quick FoM test with my SNS Wizard (229k unbuffed DPS, 2.728 APS, 51 unbuffed CC). Ignore events and dungeons (too random), no deaths, full map sweep, kill KW and elite packs, but ignore stragglers.

SNS + Safe Passage, Evocation: 11:38
SNS + Molten Inpact, Conflagation: 11:29

The second run felt a little inefficient, because I had to cross a bit of land that was already cleared, which cost me about 10 seconds. However, the first run had 2 elite Charger packs, which pretty much balances it out, I'd say.

I ran Meteor in my SNS setup for a couple of months, but in the end it's just not worth losing the utility that Teleport provides. Not Teleport's mobility though. As we can see above, that's already balanced out by Meteor's faster trash killing.

P.S. Thanks for giving me a reason to grind XP for a bit. :P
Edited by mzy#1101 on 1/26/2014 4:39 AM PST
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Which rune were you using, mzy? Liquefy >> Molten Impact, especially if you have decent CC. Of course nothing will beat out WW/tele for DPS and mobility but when I use Meteor (any rune), my mind set changes from speed and DPS to "how many Meteors can I drop without having to cast another WW"... I just find it more fun.

I also have one source of Meteor reduction (I ran two [+Skull Grasp] at one point but DPS loss was too noticeable) so it did feel like I was spamming more than without any.
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01/26/2014 04:35 AMPosted by mzy
Adding Meteor to a standard SNS setup really doesn't help as much as people think.

Yeah when I said "very powerful spec" I didn't mean it was necessarily more powerful than standard but they are both pretty beefy. SNS/wormhole is, of course, the best all-around spec by far due to OP/IMBA freeze and mobility.
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01/26/2014 05:11 AMPosted by MrDuMa
Which rune were you using, mzy? Liquefy >> Molten Impact, especially if you have decent CC.

I've yet to see any conclusive evidence that shows which rune is the "best". Tekk always avoids making any statements about that, which leads me to think the differences are negligable.

However, I'll say this. I went into trash fights with a Frost Nova, then 2-3 WWs, followed by Meteor spam. For most of the fights, the monsters were dead right around the time my initial WWs died out. That leads me to believe Liquify would not gain me much.

But I'll give it a go! Back in 15. Make that 30. I am a !@#$ing moron.

01/26/2014 05:11 AMPosted by MrDuMa
I also have one source of Meteor reduction (I ran two [+Skull Grasp] at one point but DPS loss was too noticeable) so it did feel like I was spamming more than without any.

I used to run with a -5Meteor Force, but when I switched to Teleport I picked up a different Force. During my benchmark today I did not notice much of a difference.
Edited by mzy#1101 on 1/26/2014 7:33 AM PST
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Liquify.

First attempt: 3 deaths.
Second attempt: 4 deaths to 2 simultaneous elite packs, then random screw up by me.
Third attempt: 2 deaths to KW.

I'm not going to bother continuing. Either I'm having bad luck or I'm just playing badly. Either way, I'm angry at the world and that's just going to hurt my run times. I'll give it another try after dinner. Maybe.
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Much better. 11:48 for a full clear with Liquify. A little inefficient due to bad planning, so that accounts for the slightly higher run time. Confirmed my suspicions, at least: Liquify and Molten Impact are not significantly different.
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For prolonged fights, Liquefy is more spammable than MI. I'm not really arguing speed of kills since trash will always die fast either way and it's dependent on gear. I'm talking about spammability of the skills.

When I played with dolynick, his Meteor Shower was doing more DPS than my Liquefy but he certainly wasn't able to spam it more than me, especially during elite fights.

The difference in DPS is more obvious against elites rather than full map clears of trash. In that case, Meteor Shower might be a better rune for speed if you have the DPS where you drop MS straight up, then use WW to top up your AP moving into the next mob. The difference vs elites will be more obvious though.
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01/26/2014 02:13 PMPosted by MrDuMa
When I played with dolynick, his Meteor Shower was doing more DPS than my Liquefy but he certainly wasn't able to spam it more than me, especially during elite fights.


The meteor runes are like a toolkit. Different runes are better for different situations. I'm guessing we were in a crypt run and I was going for the carpet-bombing style for wiping out large packs of trash mobs. You're quite right though, Meteor Shower is not nearly as strong against an elite pack as Liquefy. Shower requires more targets for it to start showing any advantages over the other runes.

In an SNS build, Molten doesn't offer much advantage over Liquefy. With high CC as is typical for SNS and multiple targets Liquefy will approach 420% damage most of the time, while offering twice the procs as well. In the end it comes down to how much meteor spam you do with your hybrid SNS build. If it's a lot of meteor spam, then Liquefy becomes more attractive. If it's less spam and more just an occasional damage bomb, them Molten does offer higher burst damage.

-dolynick
Edited by dolynick#1290 on 1/26/2014 3:22 PM PST
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01/26/2014 02:13 PMPosted by MrDuMa
For prolonged fights, Liquefy is more spammable than MI.

This is a very different (and much more reasonable) statement than "Liquify >> Molten Impact". The Meteor runes all have their pros and cons, there is no "best" rune. It's one of the best balanced skills in the game.
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