Diablo® III

On a SNS+Meteor build, did someone test AO ?

01/26/2014 09:02 PMPosted by mzy
This is a very different (and much more reasonable) statement than "Liquify >> Molten Impact". The Meteor runes all have their pros and cons, there is no "best" rune. It's one of the best balanced skills in the game.


I wouldn't go so far as to call it balanced. Liquefy does have a dominant potential for damage vs return that must be considered in virtually every scenario. Still, it is close enough that other runes are viable and offer some benefit in certain situations - unlike most other skills in Live. I feel this remains true in RoS/2.01 but it's still improved since the competition is a little closer.

-dolynick
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01/26/2014 10:39 PMPosted by dolynick
I wouldn't go so far as to call it balanced. Liquefy does have a dominant potential for damage vs return that must be considered in virtually every scenario.

But then I would've expected to see significant differences in my run time, as in 5-10%, not 2% or less.

Either the runes are balanced, or I'm incompetent with Liquify. That's totally possible (I'm pretty damn far from the best Diablo 3 player on the planet), but then I'd ask you show some supporting evidence for your claim that Liquify is "dominant" in "virtually every" scenario, because that's not what I'm seeing.
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For me, the idea of SNS with Meteor is to see how long you can sub in Meteor for WW before you need to start using WW again. When it comes to MI v Liquefy, the latter has a superior proc rate fueling your other damaging spells. Less procs means less damage across the board which means less casting due to lower APoC returns.

As far as I'm concerned, this translates to either lower CC in a classic SNS build or sitting on a lower break point.

If your DPS is high enough MI will probably be better, but for MP10, your MIs aren't really killing elites before your AP runs dry.. Liquefy allows you to go for longer before having to drop back to WW.

A better test would be to remove WW from your skill bar and see which performs better. Really, if you're not spamming meteors (any rune), then you may as well use another skill. I think this will illustrate Liquefy's advantages over other runes a little more clearly.
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The whole Build can be a bit harder to play as you really need to time your WW's to be up long enough for you to kill the mobs, or even time when to weave some more in(just enough) to keep up the proc's for the Meteors. It does take practice to perfect, a lot more than SNS.

I really enjoyed playing the build, more so than pure SNS, but to me the downside of losing Teleport was just to much due to the loss of movement speed and more importantly the perfect positioning you can do with teleporting when actually fighting.

Sorry OP we drift off tract, but by that you can see from our conversations that Meteor is just downright better and incomparable to AO.

Edit: I'm still a believer in Impact over Liquefy when >60cc. :)
Edited by Aphraell#1269 on 1/27/2014 5:26 AM PST
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My DPS is still low for SNS and even lower with Meteor so for me, it's more of a necessity. The extra bit of DPS from MI isn't really helping me kill faster so Liquefy is really being used as a cooler looking WW :p
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01/27/2014 04:37 AMPosted by MrDuMa
For me, the idea of SNS with Meteor is to see how long you can sub in Meteor for WW before you need to start using WW again. When it comes to MI v Liquefy, the latter has a superior proc rate fueling your other damaging spells.

Absolutely. If all you want is to spam a spell for as long as possible, then the one with the best proc rate will win, and that's Liquify. No argument from me.

01/27/2014 04:37 AMPosted by MrDuMa
Less procs means less damage across the board which means less casting due to lower APoC returns.

But this is not quite accurate. Less procs mean less casts, yes, but not necessarily less damage. For example, if Molten Impact did double the damage, and Liquify got double the proc rate, then the two would come out perfectly even, in all scenarios.

The reality is a little more complicated. All DoTs included, Molten Impact does 450% damage, to Liquify's 420%, assuming it crits 100% of the time, which is very reasonable when you hit multiple targets, but not so much against single elites. Molten only gets 0.5 procs, Liquify gets 0.954, again assuming 100% crit chance. Molten does its damage and gets its procs over 3 seconds (increasing the chance all of its DoTs connect), and Liquify over 8, which risks more of the DoTs to miss, either due to mobs moving or the fight ending. My gut feeling is that Liquify indeed has a small lead over Molten Impact. Almost double the procs is hard to beat.

That's all just theory, though. If that were the case, I would expect to see experiments confirm that. So my challenge remains the same: if Liquify is really significantly better than Molten Impact in a majority of scenarios, then show me some evidence! I'm not the one who's saying one rune is significantly better than the others, that's you guys. So show me. :P

I tried my best, I did 4 runs to get a good result, but the best I could get was a 2% difference. That's just not good enough to qualify as 'significant', in my opinion.

01/27/2014 04:37 AMPosted by MrDuMa
A better test would be to remove WW from your skill bar and see which performs better. Really, if you're not spamming meteors (any rune), then you may as well use another skill. I think this will illustrate Liquefy's advantages over other runes a little more clearly.

But if you do that, you're just testing a Meteor build with inferior gear, with no LS, too much emphasis on attack speed, and too little APoC. In my view, the initial couple of WWs are an integral part to getting Meteors working with an SNS setup. You need that proc rate to get an efficient start. The worse your start, the less Meteor DoTs you can have on the ground at the same time, and the worse your overall eDPS is going to be. Change as few variable as possible.
Edited by mzy#1101 on 1/27/2014 7:19 AM PST
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01/27/2014 04:23 AMPosted by mzy
Either the runes are balanced, or I'm incompetent with Liquify. That's totally possible (I'm pretty damn far from the best Diablo 3 player on the planet), but then I'd ask you show some supporting evidence for your claim that Liquify is "dominant" in "virtually every" scenario, because that's not what I'm seeing.


You pretty much answered your own question with:

01/27/2014 07:14 AMPosted by mzy
The reality is a little more complicated. All DoTs included, Molten Impact does 450% damage, to Liquify's 420%, assuming it crits 100% of the time, which is very reasonable when you hit multiple targets, but not so much against single elites. Molten only gets 0.5 procs, Liquify gets 0.954, again assuming 100% crit chance. Molten does its damage and gets its procs over 3 seconds (increasing the chance all of its DoTs connect), and Liquify over 8, which risks more of the DoTs to miss, either due to mobs moving or the fight ending. My gut feeling is that Liquify indeed has a small lead over Molten Impact. Almost double the procs is hard to beat.


The issue isn't that Liquefy does more damage than Molten, it's non-DPS due to procs for benefits like 1) In an SNS or SMS build, it's more SA damage to close the gap and more CM procs to help maintain better freeze lock-down. 2) More return APoC means better spammability and better DPS over a longer timeframe. In an SNS build, you're usually paying for meteor with your WWs and you have to balance out how long you can spam the meteors before you have to go back to dropping WWs to keep your AP up. If Liquefy is generating significantly more APoC (which it generally does), then that means you don't have to revert back to WWs as soon.

It's the latter aspect that makes Liquefy a dominant rune. The fact that it has one of the higher damage potentials coupled with the fact that it also has one of the highest chances to pay for itself are something that must be considered in your rune choice for almost every build. That generally qualifies it as being the strongest all-around rune. It's not always the best choice, but you're almost always faced with the question "Is this other rune going to top Liquefy in this situation?" It's closer to being balanced than most other runes, but I wouldn't say it truely is.

-dolynick
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01/27/2014 07:14 AMPosted by mzy
The reality is a little more complicated. All DoTs included, Molten Impact does 450% damage, to Liquify's 420%, assuming it crits 100% of the time, which is very reasonable when you hit multiple targets, but not so much against single elites. Molten only gets 0.5 procs, Liquify gets 0.954, again assuming 100% crit chance. Molten does its damage and gets its procs over 3 seconds (increasing the chance all of its DoTs connect), and Liquify over 8, which risks more of the DoTs to miss, either due to mobs moving or the fight ending. My gut feeling is that Liquify indeed has a small lead over Molten Impact. Almost double the procs is hard to beat.

This is when you are comparing MI to Liquefy strictly. In an SNS with Meteor build, you have to factor in the EB and DS as well. At around 55 CC or more, you are getting crits pretty often. It's not the damage of the front loaded MI that's weak, it's the procs from the DoTs that's doing not giving any APoC and CM procs where Liquefy does.

With a lower amount of APoC returned, you can't cast as much MI meaning lesser EB/DS. Liquefy is just a better synergy. Why do we use WW at all? For superior procs rates. It's also why Liquefy performs better than MI in an SNS build.

But if you do that, you're just testing a Meteor build with inferior gear, with no LS, too much emphasis on attack speed, and too little APoC. In my view, the initial couple of WWs are an integral part to getting Meteors working with an SNS setup. You need that proc rate to get an efficient start. The worse your start, the less Meteor DoTs you can have on the ground at the same time, and the worse your overall eDPS is going to be. Change as few variable as possible.

That was just a suggestion to illustrate my point of Liquefy with SNS vs MI with SNS. You still need to do your job and freeze everything.

I had a pretty similar discussion with Tekk about MI v Liquefy. He eventually convinced me to try it out a little more and to my surprise, it was actually better in almost any scenario. If your DPS was high enough where MIs were one shotting elites, then yeah, no point in having Liquefy... but who has that sorta gear for MP10?
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01/27/2014 05:25 AMPosted by Aphraell
I really enjoyed playing the build, more so than pure SNS, but to me the downside of losing Teleport was just to much due to the loss of movement speed and more importantly the perfect positioning you can do with teleporting when actually fighting.


Have to agree. I have become addicted to safe pasage on RMB to dodge arcane beams and certain fire / poison pools as the HP globe descends.

I read this thread with interest and have to say, though I have levelled all classes, wizard is my favourite for the last 12 months +, though I'm over 1000 hours on barb lol.

I have tried EVERY possible combination (using meteor reduction gear on source/amulet/SoJ/Skull Grasp etc) and every possible rune on meteor, replacing both EB and keeping TP (not advisable dps wise, though safer), and ofc swapping to RMB. I must confess a preference to molten rather than liquefy in MP10, but agree with the other comments here that even with a meteor affixed source, and reduction gear - I just find pure SNS (credit to PieHole) certainly at the 2.51 and 2.73 breakpoints - to be as fast or faster.

01/27/2014 05:25 AMPosted by Aphraell
you really need to time your WW's to be up long enough for you to kill the mobs, or even time when to weave some more in(just enough) to keep up the proc's for the Meteors. It does take practice to perfect, a lot more than SNS.

It is also IMO, SAFER as you're not trying to extend the meteor spam to just one more,(I always get tempted to max the BOOM meteors lol) and therefore reducing the wws and novas, which in turn improves the safety. It IS very rewarding to keep proccing EB and Shards and Novas - just from the meteor tics and AP return, but I find the extra dps overall is marginal, and the odd death that I wouldn't have had using TP safe passage - mean that overall efficiency for me is just pure SNS and TP.

Hell - I even tried swapping the TP to Time Warp for another 20% - that works well too, anyone tried that? I always do it for ubers for example...
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