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One of the things that attracted us all to SNS was the "well rounded-ness" of it. You wanna farm trash? SnS. Elites? SnS. And I've said this before. But it may be time for us to consider something...new. And not just which 6 skills belong on your bar.
I was running Torment IV this morning on a Bounty Run and one of my bounties was, kill Zoltun Kulle.
Now, my build is a face tank build:
LMB: Spectral Blades
RMB: Arcane Orbit
1. Force Weap
3. BH - EH
So I killed all 4 of the other bounties and started thinking, "yeah...I'm not gonna last two seconds against Kulle's Behemoth's with this build. Bam - Bam - dead, will surely be the tune of that encounter. My build is weak against bosses who do focal damage.
Change the build?
(gasp) Blasphemy! You'll lose your Nephalem Stacks! - Nope, not anymore.
(gasp) Your build isn't efficient! Well...my build works MOST of the time...just not ALL the time..that makes it "inefficient"?
(gasp) Don't you have bonuses to Spectral Blades?! You're leaving those bonuses on the table?!...Yeah...for like 4 minutes O_o
My build is NOT 6 skills and 4 passives. My build is 5 skills, 4 passives and 1 Alternating Slot (AS)
It's still MY build though. Just because I can't use SB to kill Kulle doesn't mean I have to go back to the drawing boards.
In D3V it DID mean that. But I'm beginning to think...not anymore. You may list your build now and say, "yeah, sometimes I gotta go to town (or just to a safe corner since there's no penalty on active skill changes - passives still make you wait a minute) and swap this ONE skill because this PARTICULAR enemy type shows up. It certainly is a departure from our classic "Lock and Load" mentality.
Edited by Melkor#1521 on 1/31/2014 8:02 AM PST
In a sense, your build is the entire arsenal of skills, runes and passives. I feel like what modiyers you have (i.e are you a high crit ice wizard, low aps multielementalist, cdr specialist) will be more important constraints than what skills you have on your bar.
Why stop at 7 skills when you have over 20?
Edited by Eciton#1637 on 1/31/2014 8:08 AM PST
not really unusual;
when I got the game and just started playing without reading up online guides or these forums or anything my first char was a barb
I was using rend/quake for regular mobs/elites and frenzy/aspect for bosses.
y'know just like d2 where you switched skills for different things. When I hit 60 I stopped doing that because of the whole NV thing; and didn't do it on subsequent characters at pre-60 in order to familiarize myself with the idea of a static build and being extremely picky with what I was using
If anything; the freedom to switch without the whole losing NV penalty is a "step backwards" and I don't mean that as a bad thing at all.
Highly unusual. Find a build guide or discussion where someone advocates skill swapping during a run in live.
You don't get NV before 60 so obviously it stops at 60.
I can see your point here - but I do not share the opinion. I look at it as a step forward. I'm a wizard. I should be able to cast different stuff during a journey...and the removal of the "penalty" makes that more enticing/enjoyable.
Great point. But really this discussion now becomes one of pragmatism. What is a "build"? To me, a build is a "theme". Changing one of those skills may not shake the theme. Change em all though...
Actually, what will likely happen is this. At one extreme you will have very flexible gear, where you can pretty much change any skill and enjoy diversity. On the other hand, you may have such a tightly locked synergy, that changing one detail collapses the build. I think we are likely to find ourselves somewhere along this continuum.
(The last sentence of the above may sound wise. It isnt; it makes no real prediction other than to say many things are possibile)
Edited by Eciton#1637 on 1/31/2014 8:25 AM PST
P.s. I mean backwards to the "good ol days" d2 model
First of all - you don't ever sound wise to me, so shut your mouth. Hahaha - I'm just kidding. Nah man it's a really good point you bring up.
I'm very familiar with the Ship of Theseus - and I totally see where you're going with that. However, I'm not terribly sure that there is a single build in D3V or ROS that falls apart when you change one of its skills - within reason. I realize that if you take Energy Twister off your bar in SnS...it's a wrap...but is it? LL technically is a DoT. I mean it sucks compared to ET, but still, you can scoot by..sorta.
Flexible vs inflexible gear sets. Yup. You're right, and I encourage people to NOT specialize so early on. Otherwise you'll end up in "Melkor's problem"
Love Cold Skills - rolled and re-rolled all gear for cold.
Dropped "Fulminator" (a lightning sword)
Stuck with Cold Skill gear
Re-rolled to Lightning
Dropped a Moonlight Ward
Stuck with Lightning/Electrocute gear
Re-rolled to Arcane damage gear set.
I woulda loved to have saved the 50-100m I've spent transitioning to this set. But I also LOVE that "there's always work to do" and my gear set doesn't stay stagnant.
People will have different gears sets or skills depending on what they're doing. People already do it now.
Do you run the same skills/gear on ubers that you do farming?
What about farming solo vs farming in grps?
Do you prep in your farming gear?
In current SNS is teleport a required skill? or a flexible one? (I say flexible)
We do it now, but yes I'll agree we'll do it to a greater degree in RoS and I'm looking forward to it =)
Edited by BDF#1838 on 1/31/2014 8:38 AM PST
Hmm, one of the alleged benefits of RoS was the ability to try out different builds as you get various legendaries in support of the builds.
But if a build works best on trash/elites (i.e., more than one mob) or bosses only, then I can imagine swapping between them more and more often as time goes on (especially on Torment VI.)
Eventually there'll be an optimal trash/elite build (gear/spells), and an optimal boss build (ditto). With the 4+2 system and the Mystic, it won't take that long to end up with nearly optimal gear in each slot for each of the two optimal builds.
I suppose at that point we either play another class or just farm Paragon mindlessly.
An unexpected consequence of removing the NV stacks!
Get it through your skull, Melkor.... umm.. yeah... I got nothin'...
I've tried a lot of the builds posted so far, but without BH, it feels like a wasted effort... I mean, when leveling, no one really bothers with any specific builds before CM.. it's just max DPS so you can get to level 60 ASAP. From what I have tested and through the PTR play testing I've done, I've actually found it difficult to find a decent synergy even with the current 6 slots. So far it's more like signature spell, teleport, AP spender, buff, buff/armor. Seems like a pretty straight forward formula especially since the items that allow particular builds be work on a different level, just aren't available (say... Frostburns with cold builds).
I think with a 7th slot, it'd feel like just adding another buff or armor to that same formula. If you had both of your alternating skills usable at the same time, does your build change much or does it perform that much better?
Edited by MrDuMa#1541 on 1/31/2014 8:56 AM PST
exactly my point. You don't need 7 skills on the bar, 6 is fine, and you occasionally may find yourself alternating 1. I don't think we need a 7 skill bar.
Right now, the strongest (only) synergy I have with my build is Illusionist with Teleport and Mocking Demise. It's pretty damn powerful. That takes up 2 skill slots... with my signature spell (Electocute), AP spender of Lightning Bind and buff/protection of Deflection, I still have one slot left which I feel isn't really necessary (Canoneer).
If I had another, I guess I'd pick an armor since there isn't really anything else?
I've been changing my passives regularly prior to some bosses in Torment 3/4. That's about the only time I change my skills unless I'm testing new builds
Yea familiar has been in every build I've been trying so far. My favourite by far is Icicle, its very good at freezing mobs quite often which lets me take less damage from melee hits, reduces the number of elite affix abilities being spawned, control the mob better and jam up doorways to stop more elites pouring through.
As you can see in your "65 days to ROS thread" Melkor I had alternative skill swaps in the build already. Based on DPS and Mititgation required.
Edited by Aphraell#1269 on 1/31/2014 5:05 PM PST
Yeah... I'm just saying that it's not really required for the build to function. Everything else slots in really well. But yeah, I've tried Cannoneer with Lightning Blast and Arc Lightning and it definitely adds quite a bit of DPS. Is it intentional that it's (Familiar's) x2 speed for Electrocute?
I'm only using Surge of Power because I need the rooting utility of Lightning Bind.
And yeah, I don't actually mind the push to use different skills. I didn't really get why they made tied it to NV. Wouldn't that kill build diversity in a way? Having said that, I still randomly change my build when I play in pubs and see someone else using an interesting build.
SNS is really unique in this regard even in vanilla. And no, switching teleport out for slow time or whatever doesn't count as a build change in my eyes. When it comes to the other classes, you'll often be changing many of your passives and actives depending on what you're doing.
That said, I don't like the idea of being able to change the build on the fly. Because the build itself should be able to handle whatever you are trying to do, even if its not every single possible scenario in the game.
Edited by silverfire#1855 on 1/31/2014 6:33 PM PST
I don't actually see why you need to corner yourself into using just one build. Changing between every fight is a bit much, but having some sort of attachment to your build at the cost of effectiveness seems more like reluctance or even stubbornness to change. NV stacks did that.
I like running SNS with Liquefy in pretty much all situations... however, when people wanna do ubers, using Meteor breaks my freeze/stutter lock so I either play only SNS only, use Meteor and have ubers break free and essentially "resetting" the fight or I don't do ubers.
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