Diablo® III

ROS DPS question...and idea for staff...Doly?

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01/30/2014 11:58 AMPosted by Melkor
Ohhh ok, that makes sense.


01/28/2014 07:03 AMPosted by Melkor
That's why he writes in lime, folks!

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Well...until Doly comes here and tells me I can't do math and I'm a freaking idiot and have it all wrong.

Thoughts Doly? before I submit this.
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Oh boy... Called on by name in the title...

First, let's compare a rare wand to a rare staff. Legendaries are going to follow the same basic premise, just with higher values. I'll use general RoS values.

Let's assume our base wizard has 4000, 36 IAS, int, 40CC and 100 CHD. He'll also have 10 APoC on his hat and 10% cost reduction.

Rare Wand & Source
Wand:
~2000 DPS (1.4 x 1428.6 avg)
800 Int
800 vit
Socket (120 CHD)
1.904 APS

Source:
~350 avg dmg
800 int
800 vit
10 CC
10 APoC

Damage = 1778.6 x 57(int) x 2.1 (cc/chd) x 1.904(aps) = 405,358.6 dps
RoF Cost: 1.904 x 16x0.9 = 27.418 AP/S
APoC/s: 10 + 1.904 x 2 x 0.5 x 20 x 0.333333 = 22.693 AP/s
Net AP: -4.725 AP/s

Rare Staff
2500 dps (1 x 2500 avg)
1600 int
1600 vit
Socket (120 CHD)
1.36 APS

Damage = 2500 x 57(int) x 1.88 (cc/chd) x 1.36(aps) = 364,344 dps
RoF Cost: 1.36 x 16x0.9 = 19.584 AP/s
APoC/s: 10 + 1.36 x 2 x 0.4 x 10 x 0.333333 = 13.627 AP/s
Net AP: -5.957 AP/s

---------------------------------

So... We have 2 problems:

1) We're doing less damage
2) We're losing AP faster even though we're doing less damage.

The easiest way to fix 1? I'd say it's just to increase the base damage for starters.

Even if we just compensate for the source difference (350+2500= 2850 avg) then we get:
2500 x 57 x 1.88 x 1.36 = 415,352.2 dps
That's a touch higher but closer and in favor of the 2H.
(I believe that 350 may be the avg damage range of a legendary source as well, not a rare)

To fix 2 we have a few options:
A) Allow for CC
10CC on 2H gives us an AP gain of 14.533 AP/s and a Net of -5.051 AP/s. Closer but not quite there. This does give us parity for damage as well (without adjusting current damage ranges for 1).

B) Allow for APoC
7 APoC on staff gives us AP gain of 16.165 AP/s and a net of -3.419 AP/s. Slightly better than the wand+source.

C) Allow for extra Cost Reduction
10% cost reduction on Staff (19% total with stacking) puts us at an AP Cost of 1.36x12.96= 17.626 AP/s and a Net of -3.999 AP/s. Also slightly better than the wand+source. I think they already allow for cost reduction on 1H weapons but I'm not sure if the 2H range is 10% higher than the 1H range or not. Even so, the 1H weapon would have an extra primary roll over the 2H as you'd have to give up int, vit or socket to on the 2H to get Net AP/s parity.

-----------------------------

In any case, it's pretty clear that you must have at least 1 extra primary affix to at least get close to equality.

If I had to recommend something:
-increase base damage range possible on 2H by the average damage of the corresponding level source's avg damage. They'll do slightly more damage but burn AP a touch faster.
OR
-Allow for an extra primary on 2H. Make sure the cost reduction is 5-10% higher for 2H weapons. Do not include CC and APoC in the list of possible rolls. You can use the extra net AP/s from the additional cost reduction roll for more IAS to finish balancing out DPS a bit more.

I say this because I doubt Blizzard is going to want to break convention by allowing CC on weapons for 2H'ers or with the new policy of removing APoC from weapons. This also works for ALL 2H weapons and not just staff vs wand+source. I think the last point is important if you're going to recommend something because Blizzard is going to want to look at a solution that fits all classes and not just wizards.

**If I'm off on some of the base numbers in the first comparison part, then the numbers may need some revision**

-dolynick
Edited by dolynick#1290 on 1/30/2014 2:27 PM PST
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ib4doly's math!
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Man, if feel like a little kid in Catholic school with a nun standing behind me with a ruler just waiting to *crack* me on the knuckles for doing a math problem wrong.

Doly = nun, I guess. Probably a frightening visual.

*crack* for the nun comment. I'm in trouble already...
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01/30/2014 12:33 PMPosted by PieHole
Man, if feel like a little kid in Catholic school with a nun standing behind me with a ruler just waiting to *crack* me on the knuckles for doing a math problem wrong.

Doly = nun, I guess. Probably a frightening visual.

*crack* for the nun comment. I'm in trouble already...


Geez is that what Catholic School was/is like? In Hebrew School they just take your spare change away...
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Ok. Think I'm done now. Look it over and if you see a mistake in my base numbers for the rare items, let me know. It would require some re-!@#$ering to get proper values again.

-dolynick
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Shouldn't your base for the 1h example be 1778.6 (1428.6+350) and not 2350 (since the 2000 dps weapon damage is the base damage multiplied by the atack speed)?
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Doly/Pie

The difference in avg dmg is a big deal (1428+350 vs. 2500)

Consider this build with 50-75% CDR, which almost entirely ignores APS.

AO Aorbit
EB Time Bomb
DS Shards
FN Frozen Mist
MW Force Weapon
AT Disruption

I think the power of these CDR builds may be holding back 2H potential, or at least 2H avg dmg.
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01/30/2014 01:38 PMPosted by silverfire
Shouldn't your base for the 1h example be 1778.6 (1428.6+350) and not 2350 (since the 2000 dps weapon damage is the base damage multiplied by the atack speed)?


Lol. Crap. You're right! I knew I noted that value for a reason and then forgot to use it.

Time to revise.

On a side note... why is the word j-i-g-g-e-r censored by the forums???

-dolynick
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01/30/2014 01:43 PMPosted by dolynick
01/30/2014 01:38 PMPosted by silverfire
Shouldn't your base for the 1h example be 1778.6 (1428.6+350) and not 2350 (since the 2000 dps weapon damage is the base damage multiplied by the atack speed)?


Lol. Crap. You're right! I knew I noted that value for a reason and then forgot to use it.

Time to revise.

On a side note... why is the word j-i-g-g-e-r censored by the forums???

-dolynick


Jewish + BAd word
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01/30/2014 12:22 PMPosted by dolynick
I say this because I doubt Blizzard is going to want to break convention by allowing CC on weapons for 2H'ers or with the new policy of removing APoC from weapons.


True. I don't necessarily like being forced into mandating APOC on helm, but if that's they way it has to be, then so be it. Because, yeah, making an exception for APOC or CC on staffs could be a hard sell.

So, basically:
.
  • DPS - 1.3x to 1.5x that of a 1.4 aps 1H weapon.
  • --------------
  • Primary Affix - Smart INT roll (maybe 90% of what the max of 1H + source)
  • Primary Affix - random
  • Primary Affix - random
  • Primary Affix - random
  • --------------
  • Secondary Affix - would roll +Max AP
  • Secondary Affix - random
  • --------------
  • Special Resource Reduction Affix - 8-10% res. red. for a secondary spell*
  • --------------
    * Would randomly roll between Ray of Frost, Disintegrate, Arcane Torrent, and Arcane Orb (i.e. channeling spells)
    ** if the "Special Resource Reduction Affix is a no-go, then a simply a 5th Primary Affix would work

    .
    .
    So, basically, higher base damage and a cost reduction roll. If I keep it the way I have it, then its still 4+2 with one "special" class specific addition (essentially a 5th primary). Also, this could translate to other class weapons. For instance, the Barb specific Affix could be "Spalsh Damage" and for monk could be a special dodge or block (since that's what'd you do with a diabo as a martial artist, etc). I don't know for WD or DH.
    .
    *** I kind of like this, in that, as you said, its not wizard specific and you're not "breaking" any new trends that they are going for (no APOC or CC on weapons).
    .

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    Edited by PieHole#1628 on 1/30/2014 2:21 PM PST
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    01/30/2014 01:45 PMPosted by Melkor
    Jewish + BAd word


    Really? News to me. I've only ever heard it used in reference to fiddling/adjusting something.

    -dolynick
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    2 Hand weapons ideas

    -Increase Damage rolls by 1/3
    -Double proc rates
    -Increase main stat by 1/3
    -Add 1 special affix as a guaranteed roll: Apoc or Crit or AP
    -Add 1 special affix of %elemental or %skill damage
    -2 sockets
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    Hm. I also thought Jewish+ bad word.

    Maybe it's because we're from 'murica.
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    Pie,

    Silverfire pointed out a pretty big error in my original calculations. I've fixed it now. They're a lot closer than in the original set.

    -dolynick
    Edited by dolynick#1290 on 1/30/2014 2:06 PM PST
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    01/30/2014 01:42 PMPosted by Vox
    Doly/Pie

    The difference in avg dmg is a big deal (1428+350 vs. 2500)

    Consider this build with 50-75% CDR, which almost entirely ignores APS.

    AO Aorbit
    EB Time Bomb
    DS Shards
    FN Frozen Mist
    MW Force Weapon
    AT Disruption

    I think the power of these CDR builds may be holding back 2H potential, or at least 2H avg dmg.


    That's true Vox. 2H'ers are more powerful with CDR skills. That could also be part of why they're reluctant buff them.

    The problem with what you're saying is that they're really pigeon-holed into one specific build type if nothing changes. I would like to see 2H'ers more widely viable than in just CDR builds.

    -dolynick
    Edited by dolynick#1290 on 1/30/2014 2:12 PM PST
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    The problem with what you're saying is that they're really pigeon-holed into on specific build type if nothing changes. I would like to see 2H'ers more widely viable than in just CDR builds.

    I don't entirely agree. A tool for every job and all that jazz.

    That said, it also shouldn't be the case that half of all weapons is viable for only one specific type of build.
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    01/30/2014 12:22 PMPosted by dolynick
    Rare Staff
    2500 dps (1 x 2500 avg)


    Do staffs really have this high of an average DPS roll?
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    Well, Doly, post #32 has my "updated" recommendations from what you said earlier. I'm still kinda trying to figure out the math.

    And....i'm gonna be busy tonight....so I won't be able to do anything for the next 5-6 hours. So, think about it a little more...and maybe give a "suggested" staff...kinda in the format that I did.

    *homework*
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