Diablo® III

Elemental Exposure obselete?

Apparently, the new trend for damage boosting in ROS is to stack +elemental skills by x% along with some specific skills (ie +meteors 15%). Would this render EE obselete? It seems that elemental specialists would yield more benefits and it would allow for another passive to be used in its place.
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The answer to your question is a bit extensive. First we have to look at what the highest eDPS single elemental builds are capable of after factoring in optimal rune selection and gear selection, and affix rolls. Then compare to the highest eDPS multi-elemental build doing the same.

In the end, you might (or might not) find that the build with the highest multiplier winds up being some kind of multi-elemental build, thus EE having a place. The multiplier might wind up being high enough that even with stacking all single elemental damage bonus a single elemental build won't be able to overcome it. Or not. Dolynick probably has a better grasp on the exacts of each build type right now.

The wording on EE also implies that it boosts the damage of all in your party, so it's a great thing to slot in when doing group stuff.

From what I can tell so far, though, it looks like an all Arcane (or almost all Arcane) build has the highest potential, but might be costly to sustain. So you'd wind up needing Cost Reduction affixes, thus balancing out the dps advantage. Fire can get close from what I can tell, with Frost and Lightning bringing up the rear. It makes sense, too, given that Frost and Lightning have strong crowd control, whereas Fire and Arcane do not. A solid multi-elemental build looks to be less dps than a dedicated Arcane or Fire build, but more dps than pure Frost or Lightning, while also able to crowd control rather well.

So yea, I wouldn't count EE out just yet. One of the builds I'm hoping to be able to get the gear to run eventually in RoS will be using it, and it should be quite amazing.
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Malakai

I presume you are talking about build which utilize 4 pcs Tal Rasha set?

I am also counting on finding this set. I had a thought about this and basically with no AR cost you can achive it (needs proper gear) and only LMB can be used to cast all 4 elements.

Hint: It involves leg sword and leg ring :)

Cheers
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02/03/2014 03:33 AMPosted by Malakai
Dolynick probably has a better grasp on the exacts of each build type right now.


While nothing can touch the current infinite DPS build (fire, with or without lightning) in a longer fight, an arcane focused build does seem to clearly have the highest eDPS potential right now in the more traditional style build. Cold and Lightning are both capable of outputting some pretty substantial DPS though, it's just harder to maintain that output (with lightning in particular).

In order for Elemental Exposure to compete with +% Arcane Skill Damage, I believe it would have to be multiplicative in nature (like Cold Blooded is in live atm). I think the wording of the skill does leave that open as a possibility but until someone tests it, it's an unknown. It's beta only, so I haven't been able to check it myself yet. Even if it is, it probably can't top a really specialized arcane build (Moonlight Ward's +50% arcane damage is huge) but it could at least be somewhat competitive. If EE is additive, I have doubts about it keeping pace with the %skill type focused builds.

-dolynick
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02/03/2014 04:00 AMPosted by RoGeR
I presume you are talking about build which utilize 4 pcs Tal Rasha set?


Nope...Elemental Exposure is a new passive in ROS.

02/03/2014 04:00 AMPosted by RoGeR
I am also counting on finding this set.


Um, I would not count on YOU finding anything in ROS. It's the GEAR that will find you. Then you use its best attributes and build around it. If you happen to find 4xTal Rasha's...fine, great. I just wouldn't count on it happening, per se.
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02/03/2014 02:04 AMPosted by KevinHZH
Apparently, the new trend for damage boosting in ROS is to stack +elemental skills by x% along with some specific skills (ie +meteors 15%). Would this render EE obselete?


Not IMO. Actually, perhaps the opposite: strictly better than glass canon in almost every build.

I've found it quite hard to get below 2 dmg types, even in an arcane build. I've always got Stormcrow procs, Hellfire 1.0/2.0. Sometimes running familiar icicle or frost nova utility =3 elements already. Storm armor = 4).

IMO, EE needs a redesign with better-than-linear returns for additional elements. Something like 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 cumulative bonus for additional elements. Running a 5th element is a lot harder than running the first two elements. Why not reward that effort appropriately?
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02/03/2014 08:59 AMPosted by Vox
Not IMO. Actually, perhaps the opposite: strictly better than glass canon in almost every build.


Yea, it's definitely better than GC since it's really easy to get at least 3 elements into your build. You actually only need 2 since your weapon's element gets counted like the description says. So if you have, say, cold from Sleet Storm and arcane from Canonneer, and your weapon is a Lightning damage weapon, there's 3.
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02/03/2014 07:45 AMPosted by dolynick
Cold and Lightning are both capable of outputting some pretty substantial DPS though, it's just harder to maintain that output (with lightning in particular).


Don't count out a Fire centric build (not the infinite fire one). It won't wind up being completely fire because there aren't enough good fire spells to support it, but the 2 main damage dealers will be fire. It should wind up being very, very high dps, possibly higher than Arcane given all the bonus fire damage you can get on gear slots that you can't get other elemental bonuses on (gloves, chest, and the amount you can get on source).
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02/03/2014 08:54 AMPosted by PieHole
02/03/2014 04:00 AMPosted by RoGeR
I presume you are talking about build which utilize 4 pcs Tal Rasha set?


Nope...Elemental Exposure is a new passive in ROS.

02/03/2014 04:00 AMPosted by RoGeR
I am also counting on finding this set.


Um, I would not count on YOU finding anything in ROS. It's the GEAR that will find you. Then you use its best attributes and build around it. If you happen to find 4xTal Rasha's...fine, great. I just wouldn't count on it happening, per se.

[/quote]

Thanks for explanation. I did not put much attention in locked skills as for now I connot use it.

With me counting on finding this, I meant counting on my luck that game will generate this pieces of set for me. :)

Does each stack extends it by extra 5sec or is it counted only from first use?

Thanks
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02/03/2014 10:51 AMPosted by Malakai
02/03/2014 07:45 AMPosted by dolynick
Cold and Lightning are both capable of outputting some pretty substantial DPS though, it's just harder to maintain that output (with lightning in particular).


Don't count out a Fire centric build (not the infinite fire one). It won't wind up being completely fire because there aren't enough good fire spells to support it, but the 2 main damage dealers will be fire. It should wind up being very, very high dps, possibly higher than Arcane given all the bonus fire damage you can get on gear slots that you can't get other elemental bonuses on (gloves, chest, and the amount you can get on source).


Oh, I wasn't counting it out. I'm just not sure I see fire builds matching the relatively easy, reliable x20 multipliers that arcane builds seem capable of. Meteor Shower seems to have been tweaked and appears to be hitting with more meteors per cast and can pull x15 with relative ease on 2-3 targets but I wouldn't call it "easy and reliable" for all situations. Fire Blades still provides a decent buff but limits you at the same time by requiring constant spam to get that bonus. EB and Molten can act as decent DoTs but neither is all that great without some very dedicated support. There are some legendaries that can swing things around a fair bit but Arcane builds seem to have an advantage as basic builds.

-dolynick
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One thing AT builds really have going for them is that Familiar shoots a lot more often when you use it, and it's something I forgot to factor in when comparing the Fire build I'm talking about to it.

Anyhow, the Fire build that I mention is centered on Heat Wave and Chain Reaction. Using Cindercoat, the casting cost of Heat Wave gets reduced to something more in-line with a channeled spell (I believe it goes down to 18 AP or thereabouts). You can get a huge amount of +Fire from Cindercoat, Phoenix Orb, and Magefists, among other slots (I think it's bracers and amulet, right?). Then you top it off with Wand of Woh for very strong CR damage per cast. And you can get bonus Wave of Force and/or Explosive Blast damage on gear, too, to help.

Since there aren't really any other good Fire spells to support the build, you supplement it with whatever else comes out to more eDPS: Familiar, Arcane Orbit, Magic Weapon, Storm Armor, etc.

Not sure if the whole thing will be sustainable AP-wise, though, as I have no idea what the coefficients on Heat Wave or Chain Reaction are now. Maybe you can figure it out if it's sustainable (along with what the potential multiplier of the build would be) since math appears to be a strong suit of yours.

Also, are you able to reroll the bonus Arcane damage on Moonlight Ward into another element? I know that if you can it would be capped at 20% I think it is, but the proc on it is too good to ignore for most builds.
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02/03/2014 07:29 PMPosted by Malakai
Anyhow, the Fire build that I mention is centered on Heat Wave and Chain Reaction. Using Cindercoat, the casting cost of Heat Wave gets reduced to something more in-line with a channeled spell (I believe it goes down to 18 AP or thereabouts). You can get a huge amount of +Fire from Cindercoat, Phoenix Orb, and Magefists, among other slots (I think it's bracers and amulet, right?). Then you top it off with Wand of Woh for very strong CR damage per cast. And you can get bonus Wave of Force and/or Explosive Blast damage on gear, too, to help.


I figured it would probably have something to do with CR and the Wand of Woh, a Cindercoat and possibly Magefits - most likely paired with Heat Wave. It makes sense.

That was sort of my point though... Fire builds seem to need heavy legendary support to catch up with what the Arcane builds can do with just rares. You're right that there does seem to be more +Fire Skill % support to build with, mostly on legendaries. Fire builds are likely to be something that you "grow into" in RoS once things start dropping for you over time.

The other "problem" with fire builds is that they offer no innate crowd control. Arcane allows the oh-so-good-now Temporal Flux. Cold comes with inherent slow and damage if you opt for Cold Blooded. Lightning has Paralysis... if you can get it to proc. Fire? You get more damage with CC from Conflagration. That at least does mean a little more APoC too I guess.

Still, Fire skills did get some decent love for 2.01. I like most of the efforts they have made. Several of the new fire skills are among my favorites in PTR (Conflagrate, Scorch, improved Meteor Shower).

Cold actually seems fairly well positioned with RoF, Comet, Icicle (or another familiar if you want to mix) and Frozen Orb. RoF is easy to channel, offers better performance with familiar (x2 like electrocute, where AT and Disintegrate seem to be x1.5) and can take advantage of AD. Comet is alright... Frozen Orb seems to be one of our best damage dealers from what I've seen after the last update.

Lightning does seem to suffer a bit. Lightning Blast and Arc Lightning are both strong output for a signature spell but offer poor proc rates. If you want procs, you are forced to run un-runed Shock Pulse as it's the only pure lightning spell that can offer solid single target procs. Sadly, Living Lightning seems to have lost it's raison d'etre for me. Electrocute has clear advantages with familiar and AD though. Lightning Bind is the only real heavy hitter for Lightning though, but is a standout for dps among meteor runes. Still the strongest of them all in my opinion. Spark tries, but just seems to fall a bit flat if you don't have a lot of targets. Static Pulse does provide a nice buff at least if you can work it into a steady rotation. Shocking Aspect isn't what it used to be; the only case I can find for even slotting it is with Conflagrate (fire). Reactive Armor is intact but offers no protection and leaves you very vulnerable now that you cannot use lifesteal (at 70 that is) to offset the damage you must take.

-dolynick
Edited by dolynick#1290 on 2/3/2014 8:48 PM PST
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02/03/2014 07:29 PMPosted by Malakai
Not sure if the whole thing will be sustainable AP-wise, though, as I have no idea what the coefficients on Heat Wave or Chain Reaction are now. Maybe you can figure it out if it's sustainable (along with what the potential multiplier of the build would be) since math appears to be a strong suit of yours.


As of the last test (Tekk's), 0.1666667 for Heat Wave and 0.1 (total) for Chain Reaction. In other words, not so great.

I'm passable at math. Mostly just stubborn and determined when it comes down to it. It would take a lot more info about specific numbers to figure out though and give you a damage range.

02/03/2014 07:29 PMPosted by Malakai
Also, are you able to reroll the bonus Arcane damage on Moonlight Ward into another element? I know that if you can it would be capped at 20% I think it is, but the proc on it is too good to ignore for most builds.


Unknown. I'd think 20% capped if you can too. 50% seems like a special property though, and you often cannot re-roll the legendary "defining" affixes.
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02/03/2014 08:29 PMPosted by dolynick
Fire builds are likely to be something that you "grow into" in RoS once things start dropping for you over time.


Oh, for sure. I like to look at the long term possibilities though. It keeps a goal in mind, something to strive for, keeps me interested in playing.

02/03/2014 08:29 PMPosted by dolynick
The other "problem" with fire builds is that they offer no innate crowd control. Arcane allows the oh-so-good-now Temporal Flux. Cold comes with inherent slow and damage if you opt for Cold Blooded. Lightning has Paralysis... if you can get it to proc. Fire? You get more damage with CC from Conflagration. That at least does mean a little more APoC too I guess.


You can easily fit Calamity (the stun doesn't appear to be on DR) and Illusionist into every build. Calamity has the added benefit of being Arcane damage so it's a perfect fit for an Arcane build. I use Calamity + Illusionist in every build right now on PTR and cast it quite frequently on Elite fights. With high LPS (I have 4k with Templar and have the ring that boosts my LPS by 94% based on the amount of life missing, it's basically 1% for 1% BTW if you were wondering) and LoH can you recoup most (if not all) of the damage you take from the hit(s) that triggered Illusionist in the duration of the stun or shortly after. With careful positioning and reflexes, coupled with potion timer and the 2 Templar heals, it makes staying alive rather easy.

But yea... it would be nice to maybe see them change one of the set bonuses on the Phoenix set into something that gives your Fire spells some kind of CC. Maybe a chance to Blind or something.

Also, if no reliable CC options for Fire pan out at level 70 (who knows if my above strategy will work then), and if the eDPS of the Fire build winds up being extremely high, then it could at least be an excellent build when running with others in a group while they layer on the CC.

02/03/2014 08:29 PMPosted by dolynick
Frozen Orb seems to be one of our best damage dealers from what I've seen after the last update.


I like the damage, speed, and coverage that FO provides. But I find it hard to sustain on few targets, forcing me into a Signature spell or RoF (non-SS) in order to keep up the pressure when it gets down to that.

02/03/2014 08:29 PMPosted by dolynick
Lightning does seem to suffer a bit. Lightning Blast and Arc Lightning are both strong output for a signature spell but offer poor proc rates. If you want procs, you are forced to run un-runed Shock Pulse as it's the only pure lightning spell that can offer solid single target procs.


At 2 APS and about 50% CC, Forked Lightning can get close to Lightning Blast's dps on at least 3 targets, and it offers a pretty good proc rate. It's .167 per beam tick, but has that speed coefficient of 2 going for it, and each of the charged bolts is .167 as well I believe. There's that item that allows Electrocute to chain to targets it has already hit, but I doubt it would let it chain to a single target 3 times or it would be broken as hell with Chain Lightning and that other item that doubles the number of Chain Lightning chains. Unless they want to make both of those affixes roll on the same slot so you can't stack them both.

02/03/2014 08:29 PMPosted by dolynick
Spark tries, but just seems to fall a bit flat if you don't have a lot of targets.


Yea, I really, really like Spark on large groups, but feels so lackluster on very small groups. Plus that long delay between the first hit and the second one makes it feel like it's not keeping up on damage. The reality is that it is, it's just that delay that makes it kind of annoying at times (like Arcane Mines).

02/03/2014 08:29 PMPosted by dolynick
Reactive Armor is intact but offers no protection and leaves you very vulnerable now that you cannot use lifesteal (at 70 that is) to offset the damage you must take.


Yea, but the amount of damage that RA offers now is just absurd, and IMO probably worth building around, or at least something to you grow into eventually once you can get the mit/eHP to affording using it. For me, it crits mobs for almost 1m at times. It's by far our most powerful DPS related armor now since nothing really procs SA much anymore outside of some Signature spells.

What are your thoughts on Electrify, btw? I noticed that it seems to proc quite a bit when I use Sleet Storm for some reason, and Frozen Storm seems to proc it a lot as well. I stood in a pack of 5 mobs with just Frozen Storm and Electrify going and I was getting at least 1 proc a second it seemed. When I start SS'ing on top of that, it seems to be going off like crazy. Not old WW+Electrify kind of crazy, but still enough that it at least feels like it's worth it. I know it falls apart on single targets, but for those big groups I really like it. It's hard to compete with 10% more from Force Weapon, though, so it could all be just in my head.
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02/03/2014 08:53 PMPosted by dolynick
As of the last test (Tekk's), 0.1666667 for Heat Wave and 0.1 (total) for Chain Reaction. In other words, not so great.


Heat Wave's not so bad. Sleet Storm is .187, right? So it's not too far off of that. I like to look at Heat Wave as sort of a fire based Sleet Storm (and play it as such) anyhow.

CR used to be .111 per explosion, ya? That nerf kinda hurts.

02/03/2014 08:53 PMPosted by dolynick
Unknown. I'd think 20% capped if you can too. 50% seems like a special property though, and you often cannot re-roll the legendary "defining" affixes.


Melkor, if you're reading this let us know if you can reroll the bonus Arcane damage on your Moonlight Ward into another element. ^_^
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02/04/2014 02:45 AMPosted by Malakai
You can easily fit Calamity (the stun doesn't appear to be on DR) and Illusionist into every build. Calamity has the added benefit of being Arcane damage so it's a perfect fit for an Arcane build. I use Calamity + Illusionist in every build right now on PTR and cast it quite frequently on Elite fights. With high LPS (I have 4k with Templar and have the ring that boosts my LPS by 94% based on the amount of life missing, it's basically 1% for 1% BTW if you were wondering) and LoH can you recoup most (if not all) of the damage you take from the hit(s) that triggered Illusionist in the duration of the stun or shortly after. With careful positioning and reflexes, coupled with potion timer and the 2 Templar heals, it makes staying alive rather easy.


It's good that you find Teleport to still be useful.

Myself, I have currently resigned myself to saying goodbye to the skill for the most part. Illusionist requires that you take that 15% hit to your life pool in order to trigger. I have been focusing mainly on shield builds (combined with mit) and that just doesn't play well with Illusionist. It's rare that anything hits me hard enough to set it off in PTR, which makes it mostly a waste of two skills for me. This may change at level 70, but only time will tell there.

I think it's a good sign that there seems to be at least two different working approaches. So far at least. We'll find out in time if it remains true at L70.

02/04/2014 02:45 AMPosted by Malakai
I like the damage, speed, and coverage that FO provides. But I find it hard to sustain on few targets, forcing me into a Signature spell or RoF (non-SS) in order to keep up the pressure when it gets down to that.


Frozen Orb has some strange behavior. The mechanics are still a bit of a mystery and I've mostly been guessing at them based on observed behavior. It does seem to have a fairly low 0.24 (total, with some variance) proc rate on a single target. I have found though that with 3 targets, I can spam it quite well. If APoC returns are going up that much with multiple targets, I would expect LoH returns (and damage?) to do the same. In short, Frozen Orb seems to be a good choice for a mob nuke type skill. I thought it worked well with RoF Snow Blast, where I would soften up the mob a bit with the 15% cold buff and then wipe them out en masse with FO.

02/04/2014 02:45 AMPosted by Malakai
What are your thoughts on Electrify, btw? I noticed that it seems to proc quite a bit when I use Sleet Storm for some reason, and Frozen Storm seems to proc it a lot as well. I stood in a pack of 5 mobs with just Frozen Storm and Electrify going and I was getting at least 1 proc a second it seemed. When I start SS'ing on top of that, it seems to be going off like crazy. Not old WW+Electrify kind of crazy, but still enough that it at least feels like it's worth it. I know it falls apart on single targets, but for those big groups I really like it. It's hard to compete with 10% more from Force Weapon, though, so it could all be just in my head.


This is strange. I specifically tested Ignite with Disintegrate to see if DoT type skills could proc it (IE, if it works along the lines of how it does right now in Live). I could not get anything to ignite with the Disintegrate beam. I just assumed that Electrify would follow the same rules. I cannot think of any reason why Sleet Storm would be able to trigger it while Disintegrate cannot. Another thing I should probably revisit.

-dolynick
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02/04/2014 07:36 AMPosted by dolynick
It's rare that anything hits me hard enough to set it off in PTR, which makes it mostly a waste of two skills for me. This may change at level 70, but only time will tell there.


Doly.... y u no BETA yet?
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02/04/2014 08:07 AMPosted by PieHole
Doly.... y u no BETA yet?


I guess Blizzard just doesn't love me.

-dolynick
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Jaetch and I try our best. ;-(
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02/04/2014 08:51 AMPosted by PieHole
Jaetch and I try our best. ;-(
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I know. Jaetch mentioned a while back that he'd submitted my name. Oh well. What can you do?

At this stage, I'm not sure there would be a whole lot of point anyways. It would be nice but there are probably only 4-5 weeks of beta/PTR left before they have to shut it down and go gold.

-dolynick
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