Diablo® III

On Enchanting Legacy Items

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Okay, please don't redirect this to the Reaper of Souls forum because I actually want more people to see this and/or give their input.

So this whole "Legacy items can no longer be enchanted" news got plenty of players riled up, understandably.

For the people who managed to miss everything:
02/04/2014 07:51 PMPosted by Nevalistis
01/22/2014 09:48 AMPosted by Jaetch
As far as I know, legacy items cannot be enchanted to level 70 quality. The base stats, especially main stats, will be lower. Keep it that way. As for the fear of third party sales, bind the legacy legendaries as you would Loot 2.0 ones.


Currently, items enchant values that are equivalent to the item's level. However, there's a major change coming in the next build, and this thread was the most appropriate to communicate it in given the topic at hand.

In the next Beta patch, Legacy items (or items that drop prior to Patch 2.0.1) will no longer be able to be enchanted. This was a decision we ultimately made because certain Legacy items, when enchanted, became disproportionately strong compared to new items, which isn't the intent.

However, there's an interesting "bug," if you'd like to call it, that will result from this change in the next Beta patch - all items gained up until the patch will no longer be able to be enchanted. This is an artifact of the fix implementation, and we felt it prudent to communicate this as soon as we could for those of you in the Beta. All items that drop in Patch 2.0.1 and forward will be able to be enchanted, so this shouldn't be an issue as we move into the live patch and onward to the expansion launch.

*Edited in some additional clarification*

There are many Legacy items that qualify as "disproportionately strong" when enchanted. These include:

- Chantodo's Will (innate APoC and high APS)
- Calamity (high IAS and crit damage)
- Echoing Fury (high APS if all you care about is DPS and not its annoying Fear)
- high-end trifecta or quadfecta jewelry pieces
...etc.

Of course, some level 70 items in the current Closed Beta can beat out enchanted Legacy gear, but that's the problem. Only some of the new items are good enough.

How come no one really uses Lacuni Prowlers in RoS? Because bracers like Warzechian Armguards (+movement speed on destroying object), Ancient Parthan Defenders (boosts damage reduction when stunning enemies), Reaper’s Wraps (replenishes resources through picking up health globes) offer the high base stats and the special powers to beat out generic stat sticks like Lacuni Prowlers, even when enchanted.

How about powerful items like The Witching Hour and Mempo of Twilight? Honestly, it's actually much easier to replace the latter. I personally haven't even used a Mempo my entire time playing the Beta. There are many desirable items that can replace it, especially those that aid in resource management.

But for The Witching Hour, the IAS and CD can be really, really difficult to give up. However, like for Lacuni Prowlers, there are quite a few desirable belts out there that players can see as viable replacements. Belts like Harrington Waistguard (+100% damage for 10 seconds when opening a chest/flipping corpse, etc.) are epic—try snapshotting this effect—and its high base stats can at least trounce the EHP offered from an enchanted Witching Hour. Then there's Razor Strop (deal 100% weapon damage within 20 yards upon picking up a health globe) that can add a ton of eDPS to your farming build when combined with other health globe items such as Ira’s Glass Of Life and Rakoff's Glass of Life (amulet and ring, respectively; enemies killed have a bonus chance to drop globes), Solanium (mace, critical hits have chance to spawn globes)... synergy!

Now, Solanium is a great item and can be used in very interesting ways as previously mentioned. However, it is very, very likely that it can be beaten by an enchanted Legacy weapon simply because it is a mace (low base APS at 1.20), it's Loot 2.0 so it cannot have high bonus weapon%, and it cannot roll crit damage. Let's say it rolled 2100 DPS, 700 main stats, and a socket to be generous. So now let's say the player has a fantastic Legacy Echoing Fury that he enchanted to 2500 base DPS to go with its 1.45 APS, 90% crit damage and socket.

Just comparing the two weapons on my current wizard set up, the enchanted Echoing Fury beats out Solanium by nearly 20% extra sheet DPS. No matter what kind of health globes build you're running, it's going to be really tough to replace the solid base DPS.

This is a weapons issue. When I was playing in the F&F Beta, I ditched my Legacy weapons almost instantly upon hitting level 70. Why? Because the weapons in the F&F Beta reached 3K+ base DPS. If that were the case in the Closed Beta, where enchanted weapons like Chantodo's Will and Calamity can only reach 2500 base DPS, players will have to think twice before picking which weapons to use. Do I go for the 3K base DPS Loot 2.0 weapon with the special power? Or do I pick the old enchanted Chantodo's Will for way less damage, but with better resource management?

Also, in the F&F Beta, main stats (str, dex, int) on Legendary items could reach over 900. Currently, in the Closed Beta, enchanting a Legacy Legendary item got you into the 400ish range. Which would you prefer? The old Legacy Natalya's set (+2 Discipline regen per sec) with 400 dex, little to no vitality (or 400 vit, little to no dex) on four pieces for the Disc regen, 130 dex and 7% crit chance bonuses? Or the Loot 2.0 Natalya's set where you can get 900+ dex and vitality across the board, AR or armor, plus the set bonuses of 250 extra dex, 20 bonus Disc, 7% crit chance, and a special Rain of Vengeance bonus? Yes, you can probably stay in Smokescreen forever in combination with Night Stalker running a Legacy Nat's set, but is it worth it? Perhaps? At least you'd think twice?

I say bring back the Loot 2.0 stats from F&F Beta and allow Legacy items to be enchanted, however, only to the levels they currently enjoy in the Closed Beta. That way, they will never be better than Loot 2.0 level 70 items in terms of raw power. However, you still allow players who want to bring in their old gear the freedom to choose how long they want to hold onto such gear before they inevitably (important: this must be the case) give them up for better items.

Worried about players getting stats that are way too high and tackling higher difficulties too soon? Well, just up the monster HP and boost their damage to balance out the increase in player power. Boost Loot 2.0 level 70 items up, or scale down how well Legacy items can reroll in comparison to the max stats on level 70 items. One or the other.

Edit: from my beloved wizard community:
02/05/2014 10:45 AMPosted by Hope
02/05/2014 10:38 AMPosted by ChangBooster
What would the reaction have been if they buffed all RoS loot (and difficulty) to the point where a rerolled legacy gg WH, quint ring, etc. was complete garbage in comparison? Would it not have been the same?


Ah, but basic human psychology. Buffing/giving hurts less than nerfing/taking away. Humans are generally very loss averse. With "sunk cost," people also tend to "dig in" with losses and continue to try to recoup them, until they reach a psychological breaking point where they feel like "all is lost."

But yes, you are correct. The effective result would have been the same. The psychological hit though is much worse. It's kind of like the F&F beta where the drop rates were super high -- then they nerfed them to super low. People freaked out because it was a nerf, and it hit them right in the psychology.

Another observation regarding enchanting Legacy gear:

Enchanting Legacy gear doesn't necessarily only benefit the currently "GG geared" players. I play with all sorts of players. Elitists, family men and women, the working class, super casuals, players who dedicate 10 hours a day running the game, and players who dedicate 1 hour a week running the game.

When I was running the F&F Beta and the current Closed Beta, even the super casual players were able to "catch up" to me in terms of character "power" because of the ability to enchant Legacy items. They were then able to utilize the enchanted Legacy items to speed up the acquisition of Loot 2.0 Level 70 items and start their progression toward higher difficulty levels. These are players who currently have less than half my characters' DPS and EHP levels. Enchanting evens the playing field a little more, if that's a concern for players right now. If anything, highly geared players gain a little power, lesser geared players gain a ton of power.

Removing the ability to enchant Legacy gear leaves everyone where they are and the high end players still have a leg up on everyone else... again, if that's a concern at all.

Thoughts? Comments? Try to be civil, please.
________________________________________________
Diablo III MVP | Forever a Wizard
YouTube Channel: http://youtube.com/Jae7ch
Twitter: @Jaetch | Twitch: http://twitch.tv/jaetch
Edited by Jaetch#1861 on 2/5/2014 6:15 PM PST
Wizard forum represent!
Buffing adding to the game is much better then nerfing and taking away.
I think Blizzard just needs to give us some insight into their reasoning. I'm curious as to why and why now. Is it just because of a few items that may be too OP after being reroll? I don't buy that tbh.
02/05/2014 02:42 PMPosted by STEVELoven
Buffing adding to the game is much better then nerfing and taking away.


If one spell of one class is op, you would have to buff every spell from every class instead of just nerfing one. Not to mention that you have to balance all other spells again.

Of course getting buffed feels better than getting nerfed.
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02/05/2014 02:42 PMPosted by STEVELoven
Buffing adding to the game is much better then nerfing and taking away.


you would think they would understand that point since they were so quick to adopt the idea of "bonus for living" rather than "death penalty", which is an addition rather than an adjustment.
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02/05/2014 02:42 PMPosted by STEVELoven
Buffing adding to the game is much better then nerfing and taking away.


I do agree, making something else more desirable is much better than making something obsolete.

Please make crafting at least comparable to legendaries also, not everyone wants to use the same stuff everyone else is using, some might like to create a totally unique and one of a kind item.
why are people afraid of inflation in stats for a game anyway - its just a game not our world economy.

i support your notions of buffing the hell out of stuff making it more powerful with higher stats and dps rolls, a little inflation can be a good thing.
This was definitely a break point for me. Im ready to move on now. None of the nerf and other issues like rubberbands, disconnect etc., bother as much as this.

Diablo III bring lots of joy even from the beginning to date even it was lots of error. But this was the ice breaker... Just enjoy the ride and read everyone disappointments.
I love your points, mainly because your suggestions give MORE CHOICES to the player on how he should gear and which play style they should take. It sounds fun
I like the idea of reverting to F&F, Nerfing seems to always have a negative effect on the community where as buffing rarely does. I guess it all comes down to "How they want us to play the game" Kinda tired of that bs
What gets me and why I'm concerned with the future of this game is the 4/2 loot system. I feel like this is the biggest problem atm and seems to get no response from blues why they think this is such a good idea.

Imo it limits your loot options significantly.

Loot 2.0 when i first heard travis day's blog i was super excited now I'm just extremely frustrated with the lack of options we have.

Is the plan for everyone to have perfect rolled yellows 6 hours after reaching lvl 70 and then searching for the few legendaries that make certain specs really good?
02/05/2014 02:34 PMPosted by Jaetch
Of course, some level 70 items in the current Closed Beta can beat out enchanted Legacy gear, but that's the problem. Only some of the new items are good enough.


This is why Loot 2.0 and ROS has failed. They didn't make ROS items good enough. Nothing else more to say. The programers don't play this game so they don't understand why everything they do moves 1 steps forward just to take 2 steps back.
02/05/2014 02:53 PMPosted by Barbalot
I guess it all comes down to "How they want us to play the game" Kinda tired of that bs


yepp that's correct
02/05/2014 02:34 PMPosted by Jaetch
I say bring back the Loot 2.0 stats from F&F Beta and allow Legacy items to be enchanted, however, only to the levels they currently enjoy in the Closed Beta. That way, they will never be better than Loot 2.0 level 70 items in terms of raw power. However, you still allow players who want to bring in their old gear the freedom to choose how long they want to hold onto such gear before they inevitably (important: this must be the case) give them up for better items.


Just give me the F&F version and i'd gladly pay 100$ for it.

That game looked like massive fun, What the hell happened when the F&F ended???
Edited by Angelus#2296 on 2/5/2014 3:34 PM PST
I would accept a slight nerf (say 70-75% of current reroll stat) to legacy items to keep the ability to enchant them.

I would accept a buff to ilvl70 item (keep legacy rerolls current) with an increase in monster health to keep the ability to enchant legacy items.

Currently having the ability to enchant legacy gear and then removing it is a 'taking the easy wrong over the hard right' approach.

If Blizzard truly wants to reset the game, then reset the whole game. No legacy gear, no gold, no paragon points. We all start with a clean slate or we all have the ability to 'run what we brung' inside the ROS universe.
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I just wanted to add in another interesting observation.

Enchanting Legacy gear doesn't necessarily only benefit the currently "GG geared" players. I play with all sorts of players. Elitists, family men and women, the working class, super casuals, players who dedicate 10 hours a day running the game, and players who dedicate 1 hour a week running the game.

When I was running the F&F Beta and the current Closed Beta, even the super casual players were able to "catch up" to me in terms of character "power" because of the ability to enchant Legacy items. They were then able to utilize the enchanted Legacy items to speed up the acquisition of Loot 2.0 Level 70 items and start their progression toward higher difficulty levels. These are players who currently have less than half my characters' DPS and EHP levels. Enchanting evens the playing field a little more, if that's a concern for players right now. If anything, highly geared players gain a little power, lesser geared players gain a ton of power.

Removing the ability to enchant Legacy gear leaves everyone where they are and the high end players still have a leg up on everyone else... again, if that's a concern at all.
________________________________________________
Diablo III MVP | Forever a Wizard
YouTube Channel: http://youtube.com/Jae7ch
Twitter: @Jaetch | Twitch: http://twitch.tv/jaetch
Edited by Jaetch#1861 on 2/5/2014 3:04 PM PST
02/05/2014 02:34 PMPosted by Jaetch
I say bring back the Loot 2.0 stats from F&F Beta and allow Legacy items to be enchanted, however, only to the levels they currently enjoy in the Closed Beta. That way, they will never be better than Loot 2.0 level 70 items in terms of raw power. However, you still allow players who want to bring in their old gear the freedom to choose how long they want to hold onto such gear before they inevitably (important: this must be the case) give them up for better items.


I believe that the most vocal regarding the enchanting situation are those that have no intention of ever setting aside their gear. However it was acquired, it's now theirs and there is no looking past what could be, only what is. There's a level of attachment that is going to be very difficult to break down. Blizzard really needs to sweeten the pot right now for these people.

I would like a more restrictive rerolling policy on legacy rather than an abolishment.
Hands down the problem isnt the enchanting of 60's. Its the fact that 70's need to be better. bottom line.
02/05/2014 02:47 PMPosted by PodPrestige
02/05/2014 02:42 PMPosted by STEVELoven
Buffing adding to the game is much better then nerfing and taking away.


If one spell of one class is op, you would have to buff every spell from every class instead of just nerfing one. Not to mention that you have to balance all other spells again.

Of course getting buffed feels better than getting nerfed.
then nerf the op items when enchanted not limit(nerf)all other lvl 60 gear if its just 6 op legs

if its higher cc ias cd value's on gloves and rings/ammy etc we have a deeper issue maybe one that cant really be fixed

also the 4/2 rolls restricted lvl 70 items I'll never understand why 2 stats are just flat out junk it basically the same item as vanilla but with two sections and two junk stats and higher main stat

I know my post isnt really helpful im just not sure on how to fix it

4/2 rolls need to be looked at though
Edited by baggins#6187 on 2/5/2014 3:06 PM PST
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