Diablo® III

[2.1 Mechanics] Spirit Generators: Quick Ref.

Demi is right on.

Blazing Fists should be included as well as it makes more spirit than baseline & I believe scales with CC.

The AOE shape/size is important to mention.

I agree that Bliz has done a great job with options (and build diversity) here!
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02/28/2014 12:32 PMPosted by Vox
This is EXTREMELY useful info. Thanks for putting it together!

Would you mind doing the analysis at worn+paragon crit cap (75 cc) as well? I also think 20% and 60% cc would be useful to compare.

Thanks ahead of time if you want to do it!!!

Sure, my mad excel copy-paste + paint skills can copy paste that real fast.

Spirit Gen Runes - RANKINGS : http://i.imgur.com/3VZijaG.png
Bonus Spirit Gen Rune generation vs Base http://i.imgur.com/kevrfiq.png

Great stuff.

One minor thing to note: If you're using Blazing Fists, you're going to be attacking significantly faster most of the time. It actually ranks higher for Spirt gen, procs, and crts on your chart in practice.

Also, it goes without saying that some skills are significantly easier to hit 4 targets or 10 targets with. Hitting 10 enemies consistently with FoT is.... tricky.

All this goes to show, though, that Blizz did a pretty good job with Spirit generators. None of them really stand out as absolute "must haves". Add in all the different elemental types, and I don't think you're going to see a wider range of runes being used for some time.


Yep, Blazing Fists is one of those runes that is hard to get exact numbers for since it scales differently with gear, so I kinda just want to say 10±4% better than the base WotHF rune depending on DW/2H. Kind of like putting a number on FoT's teleport, or 50% knockup - makes my head hurt.

As for positions, everyone knows Cyclone strike is awesome - and even better when combined with Dishearten to keep enemies in Generator & LTK range, so getting 10 targets in range for FoT/WotHF is actually pretty feasible now. This was me yesterday powerleveling with FoF/LTK-SS in T6: http://i.imgur.com/2EeLnwv.png
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02/28/2014 05:23 PMPosted by Davlok
Spirit Gen Runes - RANKINGS : http://i.imgur.com/3VZijaG.png
Bonus Spirit Gen Rune generation vs Base http://i.imgur.com/kevrfiq.png


Wooo!!! Thanks!
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Ok. so here is some Static Charge DPS comparisons. Since I don't know the exact mechanics, decided to make some up and vary the 'chance' to proc from 10% to 100% and compare it to the top DPS generator - HoL. The main issue is what the game considers a "Hit". If you recall from PTR many things used to be considered 'Hits' like DoTs that made FoT:SC get the PTR-nerf hammer. For this calculation, it is assumed only actual generator hits will proc SC's charge mechanic.

Assumptions:
Every target is stacked perfectly in front of the Monk.
Every target is hit by both HoL/SC for the entire 3-hit-combo.
Only FoT:SC punches can proc SC's charge
SC Procs can't hit the monster it procs from (just every other monster (X-1)
Due to comparing FoT vs WotHF, innate ias is ignored.

Base Data:
WotHF:HoL in a 3-hit combo does: (192%+429%+192%)x(X mobs) = 813X% weapon damage
[ @ 1 Target HoL = 813% WD ] [ @ 10 Targets HoL = 8130% WD ]

Base FoT:SC in a 3-hit combo does: (122%+122%+183%) = 427% weapon damage regardless of # of mobs
[ @ 1 Target SC = 427% WD ] [ @ 10 Targets SC = 427% WD + SC charge damage ]

SC Charge Damage
Y = Proc Chance
X = number of targets
X-1 = number of targets hit on SC proc

Example: 5 Targets @ 100% SC proc chance
3 hit SC combo = 122% + 122% + 183% = 427% WD
Punch 1 = (Y)(X-1)*125% = (100%)(5-1)*125% = 500% WD
Punch 2 = (Y)(X-1)*125% = (100%)(5-1)*125% = 500% WD
Punch 3 = (Y)(X-1)*125%*(X) = (100%)(5-1)*125%*(5) = 2500% WD
Total SC 3-hit combo WD = 427%+500%+500%+2500% = 3927% WD
vs.
Total HoL 3-hit combo WD = 813% * 5 = 4065% weapon damage done total

So at 100% proc chance, 5 targets HoL is still slightly ahead of SC.

SC vs HoL Results = http://i.imgur.com/dEErqHj.png

@ 100% SC proc chance you need at least 6 mobs for SC to be better than HoL
@ 50% SC proc chance you need at least 12 mobs for SC to be better than HoL
@ 25% SC proc chance you need at least 25 mobs for SC to be better than HoL
@ 10% SC proc chance you need at least 64 mobs for SC to be better than HoL
@ FoT:SC standard Proc Coefficient of .42/.42/.31 you need at least 19 mobs for SC to be better than HoL

Keep in mind the results are for averaged damage over a long time. And... bonus excel, decided to test the new Thunderfury, and it is as everyone knows an AWESOME [ http://i.imgur.com/X9piqzn.jpg ] weapon with a very high proc chance which I estimated to be around 30ppm (procs per minute) so if we assume Thunderfury procs once every 3-hit combo, here are the results!

SC vs HoL Results w/ TF = http://i.imgur.com/5LiiHhb.png

@ 100% SC proc chance you need at least 4 mobs for SC to be better than HoL (using TF)
@ 50% SC proc chance you need at least 8 mobs for SC to be better than HoL (using TF)
@ 25% SC proc chance you need at least 21 mobs for SC to be better than HoL (using TF)
@ 10% SC proc chance you need at least 62 mobs for SC to be better than HoL (using TF)
@ FoT:SC standard Proc Coefficent of .42/.42/.31 you need at least 13 mobs for SC to be better than HoL using a TF @ ~30ppm.
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Wow, so much numbers, my brain spins. :D
English is not mymother language so I'm not 100% sure if I can follow all these values, shortcuts and conclusions. ^^" I have fun with my (old) monk build, used FoT Thunderclap so far for my Cyclone/Exploding Palm build. I actualy always used FoT since I play a Monk, sometimes CW but I noticed that there are new and alternative skills/runes for Monks now when it comes to cyclone builds. :) I recently tested WotHF (never used before) with Blazing Fits, gives me slightly less spirit but more DPS due attack speed (still use Skorn so AS is an problem) and it seems to be better for single targets. Not bad so far, Cyclone generation also seems OK but I have not tested much else skill wise.

So, "simple" question, which is the best Spirit Generator skill to combine Life on Hit/crit proc as well as good single and multi target damage, where I would prefer a slightly better single target damage because the multi target comes from cyclones and the always great Exploding Palm.

ANd a little OT because here seems to bee real experts: do cyclones/exploding mobs even proc life on hit at all? I was not able to identify this during battles. ^^"
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Thank you very much for putting all of this together, Davlok.
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So when dealing with just WotHF, Hands of Lightning will produce the most cyclones compared to FoF and Bazing Fists but FoF will get more LoH procs than hands of Lighting?

What about the increased attack speed of Blazing Fists, the faster you attack the more hits you land thus the more cyclones you produce, correct?

Also how many times can the FoF dot stack?
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03/01/2014 02:50 PMPosted by FusionPower
So, "simple" question, which is the best Spirit Generator skill to combine Life on Hit/crit proc as well as good single and multi target damage, where I would prefer a slightly better single target damage because the multi target comes from cyclones and the always great Exploding Palm.


Personally I like Fists of Fury since the short dash is semi-helpful in terms of movement, and the FoF is the top on-hit generator we have. Though depending on your build if a higher % of your damage comes from LTK, then you may prefer to pick a generator that has higher spirit generation like Rising Tide or buffs damage like Foresight.

03/01/2014 02:50 PMPosted by FusionPower
ANd a little OT because here seems to bee real experts: do cyclones/exploding mobs even proc life on hit at all? I was not able to identify this during battles. ^^"


Cyclones from Sweeping Wind and the explosion from EP does not have any proc coefficient worth mentioning ^_^

03/01/2014 06:11 PMPosted by ir0nmas0n
So when dealing with just WotHF, Hands of Lightning will produce the most cyclones compared to FoF and Bazing Fists but FoF will get more LoH procs than hands of Lighting?

What about the increased attack speed of Blazing Fists, the faster you attack the more hits you land thus the more cyclones you produce, correct?

Also how many times can the FoF dot stack?


Yep, I didn't account for the 15% ias/movespeed but it would essentially result in at least 10% more procs than listed depending on your gear. But in general HoL should still produce ~5-10% more cyclones than Blazing Fists, and 15% more than FoF.

As for LoH, FoF will heal for ~75% more than HoL. The DoT stacks as many times as you apply it in 2.0, basically an extra 60% weapon damage every application.
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03/02/2014 04:12 AMPosted by Davlok

Personally I like Fists of Fury since the short dash is semi-helpful in terms of movement, and the FoF is the top on-hit generator we have. Though depending on your build if a higher % of your damage comes from LTK, then you may prefer to pick a generator that has higher spirit generation like Rising Tide or buffs damage like Foresight.


I have tested Fists of Fury, it's of course much better than any Fists of Thunder Skill. But somehow, the "Blazing Fists" rune feels better in terms of DPS and cyclone generation. The additional attack speed is really nice, pushes my dps from 178K up to 220K. At the moment I still can survive this way so I guess I will use FoF mainly to tank bosses. :) I still have to test Hands of Lightning
Edited by FusionPower#2473 on 3/2/2014 5:29 AM PST
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02/26/2014 08:15 AMPosted by Davlok
WotHF: Fists of Fury, you would heal for 1500,


Just to clarify : In the same 'x' amount of time even the best proc coefficient rune for FoT would still only heal you a little over half ( .86 / 1.5 ) as much as Fists of Fury would?

Also, as per damage how much is taken away by the fact it can only crit 50% of the time assuming no on crit bonus -- just damage (say 400% crit damage example if you had to put a number on it).

I dunno why Damage over Time doesn't crit on it if other DoT's do, but hey it helps it be balanced I guess.

Another thing on the proc coefficients -- Life on Hit will always run on the same chance as a weapon's effect proc? For Bleed 33% does that mean that it will proc 1/3rd as much as the Life on Hit will. Ex it basically is 50% chance to bleed with Fists of Fury cause of 1.50% coefficient.
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Oh add on :: Thanks Davlok ::

And another question -- Fists of Fury has a damage over time of 5 seconds still I am assuming. Does this mean that Resolve is active for 5s + 2.5s ( 7.5 seconds ) after each strike is landed?
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03/02/2014 05:28 AMPosted by FusionPower
I have tested Fists of Fury, it's of course much better than any Fists of Thunder Skill. But somehow, the "Blazing Fists" rune feels better in terms of DPS and cyclone generation. The additional attack speed is really nice, pushes my dps from 178K up to 220K. At the moment I still can survive this way so I guess I will use FoF mainly to tank bosses. :) I still have to test Hands of Lightning

Yep, they did balance most runes (except FoT) to be pretty balanced. I like Blazing Fists for the movement personally. Give HoL a try, the 'big damage' is mostly from the second hit, so you could time your combat sequence to be something like 1st/2nd/CS/LTK/LTK/1st/2nd. or some such.

03/02/2014 05:41 AMPosted by Darth
Just to clarify : In the same 'x' amount of time even the best proc coefficient rune for FoT would still only heal you a little over half ( .86 / 1.5 ) as much as Fists of Fury would?

Since FoT & WotHF have the same innate speed now, yes. FoT gets worse since the first two hits are only single target for most runes as well.

03/02/2014 05:41 AMPosted by Darth
Also, as per damage how much is taken away by the fact it can only crit 50% of the time assuming no on crit bonus -- just damage (say 400% crit damage example if you had to put a number on it).

I dunno why Damage over Time doesn't crit on it if other DoT's do, but hey it helps it be balanced I guess.

I was under the impression DoTs do take cc/cd into account, it just doesn't show up as a yellow hit or proc on-crit effects. (back to the old sweeping wind + quickening unlimited regen 'synergy' in 1.02 hehe)

03/02/2014 05:41 AMPosted by Darth
Another thing on the proc coefficients -- Life on Hit will always run on the same chance as a weapon's effect proc? For Bleed 33% does that mean that it will proc 1/3rd as much as the Life on Hit will. Ex it basically is 50% chance to bleed with Fists of Fury cause of 1.50% coefficient.


The bleed affix doesn't doesn't proc Life-on-Hit, though maybe the new Bleed based off weapon damage might. The bleed % chance IS affected by the generator proc coefficient though.

03/02/2014 05:57 AMPosted by Darth
Oh add on :: Thanks Davlok ::

And another question -- Fists of Fury has a damage over time of 5 seconds still I am assuming. Does this mean that Resolve is active for 5s + 2.5s ( 7.5 seconds ) after each strike is landed?

It was shorted to 3 seconds, and doesn't activate resolve much like how sweeping winds / submission don't. Once RoS is live, we may need to revisit all the old assumptions though!
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03/03/2014 04:38 AMPosted by Davlok
it just doesn't show up as a yellow hit or proc on-crit effects


Yes but for example it doesn't show up on wicked wind but you definitely see the proc on crit effects occur acting as if it is critting so I wasn't sure if it factored in the damage, but it sounds like it does.

Oh Submission doesn't activate resolve anymore? I was using it for the andy's proc on occasion.
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Hi Davlok

I am having a hard time reaching/understanding the following numbers:

3a - Damage: Single Target

WotHF Hands of Lightning 100%
WotHF Fists of Fury 93%

To me: HOL does 192*2/3+429*7/10=428.3, where as FOF does 192 +60*3=372

quite a bit different from your 100% and 93% ratio.

Could you explain a bit more?

Nevermind, I figured it out

Thought increase strike times from 7 to 10 increases attack time too, but apparently now.
Edited by Neuron#1807 on 3/3/2014 6:21 PM PST
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Hm. So after reading all this I still have one question: is using WotHF:FoF the best for LoH proc?
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03/03/2014 03:58 PMPosted by Neuron
Could you explain a bit more?


Sure, I put the answer here for some more visibility. WotHF mechanics are a bit vague I agree. What I think they are describing is the 2nd 'strike' only, and forgetting about the 1st/3rd.

WotHF 1st Strike = 192% weapon damage in ONE AoE Punch
WotHF 1st Strike = 0.75*X mobs hit proc coefficent

WotHF 2nd Strike = 27.43% weapon damage per punch (7) = 192% weapon damage total for 2nd strike
WotHF 2nd Strike = 0.09*X mobs hit proc coefficent per punch (7) = 0.63 proc coefficent total for 2nd Strike

WotHF 3rd Strike = 192% weapon damage in ONE (larger) AoE Punch
WotHF 3rd Strike = 0.50*X mobs hit proc coefficent

Hands of Lightning
HoL 2nd strike is increased from 7 to 10 punches.
Each punch does 42.9% weapon damage instead of 27.43%
Each punch still has the same 0.09 proc coefficent x 10 punches = 0.90 proc coefficent total for 2nd strike.

Fists of Fury
Each 'strike' applies the DoT. The actual DoT's damage has no proc coefficent, but landing the DoT is counted as a 'hit' and thus doubles FoF's on-hit proc coefficent, but since you can't 'critially apply' a DoT, it can't crit and can't spawn cyclones or proc on-crit mechanics. That was why in the link above I split the list into On-Hit and On-Crit, since FoF has 75% more On-Hit coefficent (Life on Hit, on-hit affixes) than HoL, but HoL's has 14% more On-Crit proc coefficent (due to the 2nd strike's 3 additional punches) and 7% more total damage. It's the dash and holy element that tips it for me!

03/03/2014 11:52 PMPosted by p4htr41ck
Hm. So after reading all this I still have one question: is using WotHF:FoF the best for LoH proc?


Yes. By around 25% over the 2nd best generator assuming you can hit the same # of targets (with cyclone strike should be fairly easy)

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/11882328396#13 incase you missed the on-proc chart.

On-Hit-Proc Coefficent (LoH, Item On-Hit affixes)

The % is a how much each generator compares to the #1 generator.

1a - On-Hit-Proc Coefficent: Single Target

    WotHF Fists of Fury 100%
    DR Base/KE/SfB/FS 75%
    DR PT 64%
    DR SB 63%
    FoT Base/LF/Q 62%
    WotHF Hands of Lightning 57%
    FoT Bounding Light 54%
    CW Base/M/C/RT/BW 52%
    WotHF Base/BF/SS/WF 50%
    CW T 48%
    FoT Thunderclap 39%
    FoT Static Charge 31%


1b - On-Hit-Proc Coefficent: 4+ targets

    WotHF Fists of Fury 100%
    DR Base/KE/SfB/FS 75%
    DR PT 64%
    DR SB 63%
    WotHF Hands of Lightning 57%
    CW Base/M/C/RT/BW 52%
    WotHF Base/BF/SS/WF 50%
    CW T 48%
    FoT Thunderclap 30%
    FoT Base/LF/Q 28%
    FoT Bounding Light 26%
    FoT Static Charge 14%
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I know this isn't spirit generators like the original topic but how exactly does the +elemental damage factor in... Is it straight additive damage?
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Hi Davlok, sorry if I may sound stupid as it sound and look misleading to me.

WotHF: Hands of Lightning shouldn't it be a Lightning weapon damage instead of Physical weapon damage or is a bug?

The name of the rune and graphic below speak it all:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/khi3secfsvaw2au/Way%20of%20the%20Hundred%20Fists%20-%20Hands%20of%20Lightning.png

Thank you.
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@Davlok

After numerous tests and discussions with fellow monk friends, I am fairly confident now to say that for FOF, dot is introduced with every single hit not strike.

That renders FOF's dot total number to 9 instead of 3.
Basically the first and third strike/hit proc one dot each. The 2nd strike hits 7 times and proc dot 7 times but the dmg is displayed as total (ie 60*7 over 3 seconds).
This has a huge impact on the dps outcome and it fits the realtime tests very well.

I am not sure whether this is intentional or just another "serendipitous" blessing for bliz to the monk community,

But anyway, FOF out dps HOL by quite a lot.
Edited by Neuron#1807 on 3/4/2014 9:04 AM PST
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Davlok,

NOTE 3 : FoF is applying its DoT on every punch in the 2nd strike making it the highest ds generator as well. (updated #3)

What do you mean by ds generator? Sorry not very up to date on short terms.
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