Diablo® III

Carnevil Theory craft & pet adjustments

05/13/2014 08:10 AMPosted by Shang
04/19/2014 07:35 PMPosted by XoLeRaS
[quote=" Also be wary of Reflect Damage packs.


when you are using poison darts will get damage reflected back?


your darts will return damage to you. your fetishes darts will not.[/quote]

This seems like an odd statement. Please test on Siegebreaker, both melee mode and dart mode.
Thanks.
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05/13/2014 08:16 AMPosted by PaulNg

This seems like an odd statement. Please test on Siegebreaker, both melee mode and dart mode.
Thanks.


Reflect is now based off the attacks proc rate, that is why RoT returns a lot of reflect damage, fetishes don't proc anything and don't reflect damage back. Your dart has a high proc rate of 1.0
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My Carnevil build, how to play, and it's viability in higher torments IMO.

Gears-
57% Poison and 25% Elite (SoJ won't drop)
Starmetal Kukri...cooldowns... nuff said.
AttSp everywhere i could get it, i'm at 2.0 aps
Everything else is standard (no Zuni Set yet.)
Aughild's and Blackthornes' Set Bounuses(immunity is really nice in T5+)

Side note
I swap belts, between Blackthornes and Witching Hour depending on the situations. Harrington waistguard will replace Witching Hour whenever it drops.

Also Swap Mojo between Thing of the Deep, for cooldowns and healing, and Homunculus when mobs get crazy and I need more tanks.

Skills
Poison Darts - Snake to the face... Proc my Ammy(Haunt of Vaxo)
Piranhado - for the debuff and the gather.
Gargantuan - WP... with Grave Injusitce he is up all the time.
BBV - Slam Dance... Up all the time... SMK OP
Fetish Army - Legion of Daggers.. Up all the time... SMK OP
Spirit Walk - Jaunt... Get outta jail free card. Spammable most of the time.

Passives
Pierce the Veil
Grave Injustice
Fetish Sycophants

Spirit Vessels... I dont like losing my EXP bonus from yellow wells lol

Playstyle
I see mobs... I shoot them. My Fetishes and BBV are always up, so things melt pretty fast. If the mobs are too big/elites, I let the Fetishs run up to the mobs then i start darting, same is done for waller. Fetishes make a psuedo Zombie Wall. Piranhado to gather mobs, for lazy mode point and shoot.

Where am I playing this now?
I can solo T6, but only do that when farming gold(Hellrift 1). T4 solo rifts go really fast for me, but i can do T5 no problem. But most of my time is spent on T3 teams for efficiency and loot sharing.

--------

I don't think that Carnevil is a viable T6 build. With the SMK I have 100% up time on BBV and things dont die fast enough, due to the single target nature of this build. There isn't enough AOE, even if i replace Paranhado with Acid Cloud things don't fast enough.

I've tried swapping Slam Dance with the Mana Rune for infinite Acid Cloud. It worked OK, but I need to find/craft/reroll some gear for %Acid Cloud to be able to properly test it. So I still have some work left, but it seems that Acid Cloud might be the savior of this build in higher Torments.

This build needs a way to burn through Mana for Damage.... since darts are free.
Edited by Lovepig78#1374 on 5/13/2014 1:15 PM PDT
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Hi All,

I have been doing some playing around with the Carnevil build for a while now and have had a lot of time to figure out how it works so let me put in my 2 cents to hopefully clarify some things.

Items

Full Zunimassa's Set
Carnevil
Dagger of Darts
Convention of Elements (ring)
Belt of Transcendence

I will explain the use of the ring and belt later in the post. I have used the ring as a means to identify the damage differentials from the extra % Damage.

Extra % damage

Physical 18%
Poison 20%
Fetish Army 55%
Poison Dart 57% (modified with gem of simplicity)

Monster Engagements

As mentioned earlier I use the Convention of Elements ring. This has helped tremendously in identifying the damage differentials. With the WD the ring applies 4 elements, 2 of which are Physical and Poison.

When engaging I shoot darts for the 2 other elements and the Poison, then when the ring rolls Physical I let the fetishes do melee damage.

This has shown immense damage in both attacking styles if used correctly, effectively providing an additional +200% damage while attacking correctly (dart or melee) every 8 seconds, for 8 seconds.

Findings

1. It is important to know that Fetish Army fetishes (not Sycophant fetishes) switch elemental types depending on your attack. Therefore when they are attacking in melee they are buffed by the Physical % extra damage, and when shooting darts they are buffed by the Poison % extra damage.

2. It is important to know that not all fetishes are created equal. This means that the Fetish Army % extra damage ONLY has an affect on your summoned fetishes through the Fetish Army skill. Any fetishes summoned by the Fetish Sycophants Passive take up your current highest elemental % extra damage dealer. This was part of the 2.2 patch. Therefore if you have Physical 18% extra as well as Poison 20% extra, any Sycophant summoned fetishes will get the boost from the Poison 20% extra and NOT be subject to the Physical 18% extra damage in any way. This was a very important change in 2.2 to allow focused builds with the WD.

3. Fetishes summoned by Fetish Army take bonuses from all % extra damage types. This means that from the above, Fetish Army fetishes will get a 55% bonus to damage instantly to their base damage. Further to this, if they engage in melee they will stack the bonus Physical 18% damage, dealing a bonus of 72% in total melee damage. If they are shooting darts they will stack the bonus Poison 20% damage, dealing a bonus of 75% in total dart damage.

4. The Poison Dart damage boost DOES boost the damage of your fetish's darts Unfortunately because this skill deals low amounts of damage and relies on a lot of shooting fetishes, the difference in damage is not that significant unless boosted drastically. I recommend boosting Poison Dart damage and using the Simplicity's Strength gem only if you're using the Convention of Elements ring as well .

5. When shooting darts, Poison % extra damage has an affect on both Fetish Army and Sycophant fetishes. This is subject to SUMMONING CONSTRAINTS on Sycophant fetishes as outlined in the 2.2 patch notes. This means that your Sycophant fetishes will only get the Poison % extra damage IF Poison % is your current highest extra elemental being boosted. In my case it is.

6. Due to my setup of extra elemental damage types, all my Sycophant fetishes do not get the boost from the Physical % extra damage. When engaging in melee the Fetish Army deals very high damage but the Sycophant fetishes' damage stays the same.

7. Due to my setup of extra elemental damage types, all my Sycophant fetishes get the boost from the Poison % extra damage. When shooting darts the Fetish Army deals very high damage and the Sycophant fetishes deal an extra 20% damage from my Poison 20% extra damage boost.

Conclusion

In conclusion you have 2 options in using the Carnevil:

1. Ensure that Poison % extra damage is your highest buffed elemental damage. This will ensure that all Sycophant fetishes will summon with a boost to all their Poison damage, This will allow you to run a very strong shooting army, with Fetish Army being boosted by Fetish Army % and Poison %, and Sycophants fetishes being boosted by Poison %, making your darts the primary weapon of choice all the time.

2. You can do what I did and run a combination of the extra Physical % and Poison % damage. One must naturally be higher than the other to have your choice of applicable % damage to Sycophant fetishes on summoning. Doing this will allow your Fetish Army and Sycophant army to be strong in a certain element type. If your highest extra elemental is Physical then allow your fetishes to engage more in melee damage. If your highest extra elemental is Poison then allow your fetishes to engage more in shooting darts. If you do not have the Convention of Elements ring DO NOT follow this approach as it is not the intention of Carnevil to engage in melee.

My Build for Extra Damage

As mentioned earlier I use the Convention of Elements ring. This ring rolls through the available 4 elementals, drastically boosting each element by over 200% for 4 seconds. This means that I have 4 seconds of Cold boost, then 4 seconds of Fire boost, then 4 seconds of Physical boost, then 4 seconds of Poison boost.

If you decide to specialise in a single elemental % boost, such as Poison, you will get 4 seconds of boosted damage for Poison, then 12 seconds of rolling before it comes back to Poison boosts again. Doing this makes the ring less beneficial but allows extreme damage every 12 seconds when shooting darts.

From my setup I use the ring a total of 8 seconds, with 8 second rolling time. In my engagements I always rely on the current boosted elemental from the ring. If its boosting Physical damage then I let all my fetishes do melee attacks for 4 seconds. If its boosting Poison damage then I let loose darts from all my fetishes.

When the Physical boost is active on the ring I then engage all fetishes in melee. My Fetish Army will deal ridiculous amounts of damage because of the 55% Fetish Army Boost, the 18% Physical Boost and the 200% Physical Boost from the ring, for a total of 273% bonus damage. My Sycophant fetishes will remain at their normal damage as they were summoned as Poison and are not subject to the boosts from the ring or Physical % extra damage. This lasts a total of 4 seconds.

When Poison boost is active on the ring I then engage all fetishes in dart shooting, My Fetish Army and Sycophants fetishes will deal ridiculous damage. Fetish Army will be boosted by 55% from Fetish Army Boost, the 20% Poison damage Boost and the 200% Poison Boost from the ring, for a total of 275% bonus damage. My Sycophant fetishes will be boosted by 20% Poison due to being summoned as Poison, and because they were summoned as poison they are subject to the 200% Poison damage from the ring, for a total of 220% bonus damage.

From what I have written, all my fetishes are immensely powerful when the ring boosts Poison damage and I shoot darts, while I also get a significant boost to Physical to the Fetish Army when the ring boosts Physical and I engage in melee.

I use the Belt of Transcendence because it instantly summons a Sycophant fetish for every enemy I hit. This means that if I die I can resurrect and instantly start building back up to 15 Sycophant fetishes while my Fetish Army is on cooldown. Naturally at that point I only use darts and only get the 4 second boost from the ring when it boosts Poison.

I hope this has helped you in some way to understand how the Carnevil build works, how to optimise for damage, and how to compensate between the different types of fetishes.

If you want me to help you out more or are unclear then please don't hesitate to look me up in Diablo III; Vindictive #2674 on Europe region.

EDIT: Running my build I have done a Greater Rift LVL 43 in 6:38.
Edited by Vindictive#2674 on 4/15/2015 3:07 PM PDT
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04/15/2015 02:50 PMPosted by Vindictive
I have been doing some playing around with the Carnevil build for a while now and have had a lot of time to figure out how it works so let me put in my 2 cents to hopefully clarify some things.


Hi, thanks for the effort. Please look at the right hand side of the opening post and the most recent post. You're digging up a thread that is 1 year old. There was no Zuni6 or DoD or GR at that time. Notice the most recent post was still talking about Torment 5, and opinion then was Carnevil not viable at T6?

Hopefully I've clarified some things.
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Paul, you beat me to it. I do want to correct some factual inaccuracies in this thread, too.

Vindictive, you should take a look at Paul's pet damage thread, which can be found here:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/13349475072?page=1#2

It provides video proof for most of the assertions I'm about to make, though I'll try to link primary sources when I can. Let me preface the below by saying that I appreciate your effort in making such a lengthy post. Finally, you can also reference the Carnpendium for a thorough breakdown of all the build mechanics. We'd love to have a dedicated player like you add his thoughts:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/14527433038#1

04/15/2015 02:50 PMPosted by Vindictive
Fetishes summoned by Fetish Army take bonuses from all % extra damage types.

This isn't technically the case. In melee mode, the FA get the benefit of whichever element their rune indicates. For LoD, this is physical, but for HH it would be poison and for TT it would be fire. As you note, when darting they take poison. Also note that this is regardless of the FA rune.

04/15/2015 02:50 PMPosted by Vindictive
4. The Poison Dart damage boost DOES boost the damage of your fetish's darts Unfortunately because this skill deals low amounts of damage and relies on a lot of shooting fetishes, the difference in damage is not that significant unless boosted drastically.

I'm sorry, but this is incorrect. Damage dealt by fetish darts is comparable to that dealt by melee hits when you factor in typical gear, regardless of whether you're using CoE. Fetish darts can be buffed by the same effects that melee hits can (Z6, CoE, etc.), so it's not any more or less powerful. The lower tooltip dart damage is compensated for by the ability to buff the darts with Poison Dart damage.

Furthermore, the Poison Dart damage multiplier is a standalone multiplier in the damage formula, which means that 50% PD bonus on gear is a flat 50% damage increase from darts. This makes it very powerful. Here's the damage formula from Paul's thread:

07/05/2014 06:10 PMPosted by PaulNg
This is the formula for Sycophant-Dart or FA-Dart damage:
[ Weapon Damage ] x [ 1 + (Intel/100) ] x [ APS ] x [ Fetish Tooltip ] x [ Pet Buff + %Element ] x [ %FA ] x [ %PD + SS gem ] x [ % Elite ] x [ Character Buff + Monster Debuff ] x [ Bane Trapped ] x [ Zei's Stone ] x [ CoE or F&R ] x [ Zuni6 ]


04/15/2015 02:50 PMPosted by Vindictive
5. When shooting darts, Poison % extra damage has an affect on both Fetish Army and Sycophant fetishes. This is subject to SUMMONING CONSTRAINTS on Sycophant fetishes as outlined in the 2.2 patch notes.

The first sentence is totally correct. The second is not. FS have always done poison damage when firing darts, and the change in 2.2.0 has no effect on their dart damage. You can have 120% fire damage on gear and the FS darts will still benefit from poison bonuses.

04/15/2015 02:50 PMPosted by Vindictive
My Fetish Army will deal ridiculous amounts of damage because of the 55% Fetish Army Boost, the 18% Physical Boost and the 200% Physical Boost from the ring, for a total of 273% bonus damage.

This isn't how damage multipliers work - they aren't just flat added. I noticed this reasoning in several places in your post. Different buffs (FA damage, elemental damage, Z6, CoE, etc.) are separated into groups and then multiplied together. Please review Paul's thread and the damage formula above for a full explanation.

Finally, I understand your strategy for letting the fetishes melee when the physical CoE cycle rolls around, but this isn't the way to achieve the highest DPS outcome. You're better served by putting all your resources into poison and Poison Dart buffs and darting all the time regardless of the ring's element. This is a more complicated idea to pick apart.

Here's what it boils down to: in your case (2) when you choose to allocate an elemental roll to physical instead of more poison, your FS (2/3 of your fetishes) lose the benefit of that damage entirely, since they'll spawn poison (from the 2.2 patch) and always dart poison, too. Your FA:LoD get 20% stronger, but only when they're meleeing, which is 25% of the time (4sec CoE cycle). So 33% of your fetishes do 20% more damage 25% of the time. This is a minuscule 8% damage increase to your total 23-fetish output, and only 1/4 of the time. The other 3/4 of the time (when darting), all 23 are about 14% weaker, since you don't have that 20% poison you gave up for the physical (1.2/1.4 = 85.7%). So the change to physical is 8% more damage 25% of the time and 14% less damage 3/4 of the time. This totals out to a net damage output of 91.5% over the whole window for all your darts. So by making that trade you lose 8.5% of your damage. This is entirely without CoE considered.

Now, for CoE. As you say, the physical cycle only buffs the 8 FA in melee mode. When you let them melee during the physical cycle, that 1/3 does triple damage, while the 2/3 that are FS do much less damage than they would if they were darting, since they no longer get the benefit of your PD bonuses. If you have 85% PD on gear your FS lose about 25% of their DPS output when meleeing, even with the higher tooltip damage for melee hits. This cuts into the buff you're getting from CoE.

Furthermore, melee fetishes attack more slowly than dart fetishes, which dart every time you do. A typical Carndoc will have at least 2.0 APS, while melee fetishes without T&T default to a rate of 1.25 APS. Again, refer to Paul's thread above.

So when meleeing with CoE physical active and your 20/20 elemental split, you get (0.33)*(1.8)*(3.0)*(1.2)*(1.25)+(0.67)*(1.3)*(0.75)*(1.2)*(1.25) = 3.64 times a hypothetical base damage of 1.

When darting during the physical CoE active with 40% poison on gear you get (1)*(1.3)*(1.4)*(2.0) = 3.60 times your base of 1.

This means that going melee during the physical window does just under 1% more damage than specializing your gear and just continuing to dart. So your CoE buff vanished due to split elemental damage, lower FS damage due to lack of PD benefit, and much slower melee attack speed. And that 1% more damage is only 1/4 of the time. And this is assuming that all of your FA land hits for the duration, which they might not. And it ignores the time lost to them running into melee range.

Finally - and here's the kicker - melee hits don't pierce. This means that your strategy does a fraction of the damage that your piercing darts would against multiple targets, and even against a single target the damage increase is insignificant.
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Paul and OftRepeated, thank you guys for the breakdown and analysis.

I was looking online for something like this with regards to the 2.2.0 patch but I could not find something substantial on the EU forums so I kind of dug up this one, placed my findings and I'm glad you guys came along and disected it.

My findings are purely based on the damage I am seeing. I'm not going down to the wire with the 1% damage and so forth. I just noticed that when I changed certain things, my damage changes accordingly so I can assume that what I changed has indeed had an effect on my damage.

Paul, your explaination on pets is amazing :D

OftRepeated, thank you for the link to the Carnpendium :D I will definitely have a look to increase my APS on my items to see the end result in action.
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