Diablo® III

ww is toooooooo weak

Some people keep asking for more ups than nerfs, but unfortunately since Wow, Blizzard is a big huge society that think "time is money".

So basically, nerf cost less money than having to up all other skills...

Allowing players to choose their damage type for their skills is a great idea and will offer ton of builds options, unfortunately, this idea would probably cost a lot of money to setup, and will never happen.

Marvel Heroes's dev team are reworking all their 29 heroes and try to never nerf something, except it is really needed, they try to buff others skills to put them in a competitive way, they clearly think in a different maner than Blizzard...

And MH is a free to play btw.
Edited by Azalel#2153 on 4/27/2014 4:03 AM PDT
Reply Quote
04/21/2014 01:04 PMPosted by Nevalistis
Damage is not the only factor of a skill that's weighed when we're considering balance. The proc coefficient, the average number of targets a skill usually hits, the amount of player skill involved to capitalize on an ability's powers, and whether or not that skill provides any additional utility bonuses are some of the other parts of that equation. While some of that is quantifiable data, other details are a bit harder to measure in raw numbers. That's part of what makes the act of balancing so tricky.


This right here made me chuckle outside and die on the inside.

That's why my ancient spear demolishes packs of mobs 3x faster than ww could ever dream of, and kills 5x quicker on a single target boss?

My what big lies you have.
Reply Quote
A 50% increase in damage to it I think would go a long way.
Reply Quote
If 90% of Babarian only use WW, imageni they improve it?

Are more Barb skills that needs buff right now.
Reply Quote
At the moment the firebuilds are so much stronger so the lightningbuilds should be increase to the same level like the firebuilds.For the flow the ww should to have again the posibility to use in 100% of the movementspeed. Therefore if u compare a sorc with an aoe build and a barbarian with ww which also is aoe build the sorce kill so much faster with a similiar equiptment.

Blizzard force us to choice other builds then the whirlewind for the moment.

mfg luckY
Edited by luckY#1438 on 4/28/2014 2:23 AM PDT
Reply Quote
tomorrow patch? buff ww proc rate to 80%
Reply Quote
If WW just did , perhaps, 500% weapon damage, it just might make it worthwhile on higher difficulties.

275% weapon damage is pathetic. Especially when coupled with the paltry proc coefficient.
Reply Quote
04/24/2014 04:33 AMPosted by TheTias
04/21/2014 01:48 PMPosted by Nevalistis
When we did a pass on elemental damage types across skills during the Closed Beta for Reaper of Souls, the Barbarian class was one that received the most revision. While we arrived at a place much closer to where we were aiming, we think there's room for some additional adjustments. I don't have details on exact changes to share at this time, but it's likely you'll see some skills, and not just for the Barbarian, shift around their elemental type in a future patch.


One of the biggest concerns your players have is that they aren't going to be able to enjoy any given build for more than a few weeks at best in this game because either a) other players cry nerf constantly getting your attention the wrong way, b) other players (possibly the same from reason "A") purposefully exploit loopholes in said builds or individual skills within said builds, or c) something like this happens and things get shifted around yet again.

You have to realize without even thinking very hard about it that going about changes in this manner will nullify a great portion of players' gear, force them into even weaker builds, and in general destroy much of the fun they're having now, if they're actually having fun that is. Personally I wouldn't call constantly worrying about my builds being around tomorrow "fun".

Why is it that the developers are so insistent upon doing this to us on a continual basis instead of actually shoring up the skills and spells that we don't use? We finally find some abilities with enough synergy to not require us to hodgepodge our gear into one gigantic clusterfudge of mismatching parts and now the devs are going to uproot that too?

We don't use the other skills or runes because :drumroll: they suck. Seriously, they're considered non-viable past the lowest difficulties or they don't synergize with anything else well enough to be useful in any level of Torment let alone "endgame" Torment (sic). The real solution here isn't watering down the handful of builds that are currently viable again, but instead making more builds actually viable. This is getting to be a very unpleasant experience seeing announcement after announcement that something we like is being taken out/locked away for no good reason other than that the devs didn't listen to the solutions we gave them for months or pounded into the ground such that it will never again be useful to us.

I don't know if what I'm putting out here will even be bothered with at this point, but you get players to stay with the game by engendering trust in the teams that make the game, not doing things like this that erode what dwindling trust remains among your players. The devs want a positive community/playerbase, yet seem completely abhorrent to building up the game via positive means as opposed to dragging it down via negative reinforcement. The truth of the matter is that it feels like the devs are doing this to spite us for some reason, and as a player I have to tell you that is not a good feeling to have on my end.

What little communication we get is in the form of "we know better than you so there" or them having you (the CMs) ask us questions as if they know nothing about how we feel despite us telling them for over two years.

There were suggestions that were given that would have allowed players to strive for desired builds prior to Torment and then improve those builds via better versions of the gear once they got into Torment by introducing an affix roll range tiering system, but instead we just got all of our class sets locked away into Torment, thus nullifying those builds altogether until we could get to a point where we were comfortable in Torment.

There have been countless threads giving suggestions on how to make Legendaries actually feel Legendary again so that the pool of desirable items would be viable for the long haul. What did we get instead? Gutting of several Legendary affix capabilities or the outright removal of said affix, leaving us with even more Legendaries that are nothing more than glorified rares.

We have BoA, yet the drop rates in the game, including rifts, doesn't even come close to Diablo 2's drop rates and that game had free trade. Combine that with the preceding paragraph's issue and you have Loot Letdown 2.0. And thanks to the intention to switch around the elemental properties again instead of making the subpar skills/runes viable we're going to have to regear ourselves and drop down difficulties while doing so.

Is the sky falling? I sure hope not. But what is falling is our level of trust and hope that RoS will be a great game we want to continue playing. Your players can only be pushed so far before they snap and completely stop trusting Blizzard entirely. Folks like myself shouldn't be having to make posts like this, but the continued negative reinforcement doesn't really leave much in the way of alternatives other than to try to get it through to you that we are not enjoying the development path being taken with this game.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: If a game is supposed to be something that entertains those that play it, then you need to sit down and ask youselves why we players are so apprehensive and stressed out every time we see any announcement from Blizzard. I should enjoy visiting these fora or places like DiabloFans or MMO-Champion, yet I actually cringe at the thought of clicking on any of the Blue Trackers these days. Doesn't that tell you guys anything?

I know nobody at Blizzard likes being referenced at all in the same sentence as David Bresnik, but he and his team are watching very closely what happens here and they're learning from your mistakes. While a game like Marvel Heroes will likely never be something I really play since I'm not a Marvel Universe fan (i.e. it isn't my cup of tea), mechanically they're building a better and better game each patch, primarily by not making the mistakes that are being made over on this side of the gaming fence. Depending on the individual player, MH may or may not have weaker franchise value, but mechanically speaking it is poised to surpass RoS by leaps and bounds in the not too distant future because that development team is using as much positive change and reinforcement as they can in their processes. Players over there look forward to each new set of patch notes while players here dread them even coming out, wondering what is next on the chopping block.

I sincerely implore the developers to rethink their strategy with this one. While it's one thing to adapt to changing environments, this is not the type of game where changing environments, especially in this manner, is taken very well. Players can adapt, but adapting does not equate to them enjoying the changes.

And isn't enjoyment what this game and franchise are supposed to be all about?
________________________________________________
Technical Support MVP
Prime Directives:
1. Serve the public trust.
2. Protect the innocent.
3. Uphold the law.
4. Smash, Jay, Smash!


Thank you!!!! You said it!

I swear if blizzard screws up my build that ive have worked so hard for ONE MORE TIME!!!!

I am just sick of this crap. For the past few weeks i have been so scared to even roll items in case they change or nerf something in future. This is rubbush to play like this!!! Not fun at all!!!
Reply Quote
i won't go along with all the disrespectful stuff that has been said.. but i must agree that i have been wondering if its worth working my fire gear or if i should stack cold of lightning before next patch ..

and ill admit i have been a bit scared of those changes as well :S
Reply Quote
04/24/2014 04:33 AMPosted by TheTias
04/21/2014 01:48 PMPosted by Nevalistis
When we did a pass on elemental damage types across skills during the Closed Beta for Reaper of Souls, the Barbarian class was one that received the most revision. While we arrived at a place much closer to where we were aiming, we think there's room for some additional adjustments. I don't have details on exact changes to share at this time, but it's likely you'll see some skills, and not just for the Barbarian, shift around their elemental type in a future patch.


One of the biggest concerns your players have is that they aren't going to be able to enjoy any given build for more than a few weeks at best in this game because either a) other players cry nerf constantly getting your attention the wrong way, b) other players (possibly the same from reason "A") purposefully exploit loopholes in said builds or individual skills within said builds, or c) something like this happens and things get shifted around yet again.

You have to realize without even thinking very hard about it that going about changes in this manner will nullify a great portion of players' gear, force them into even weaker builds, and in general destroy much of the fun they're having now, if they're actually having fun that is. Personally I wouldn't call constantly worrying about my builds being around tomorrow "fun".

Why is it that the developers are so insistent upon doing this to us on a continual basis instead of actually shoring up the skills and spells that we don't use? We finally find some abilities with enough synergy to not require us to hodgepodge our gear into one gigantic clusterfudge of mismatching parts and now the devs are going to uproot that too?

We don't use the other skills or runes because :drumroll: they suck. Seriously, they're considered non-viable past the lowest difficulties or they don't synergize with anything else well enough to be useful in any level of Torment let alone "endgame" Torment (sic). The real solution here isn't watering down the handful of builds that are currently viable again, but instead making more builds actually viable. This is getting to be a very unpleasant experience seeing announcement after announcement that something we like is being taken out/locked away for no good reason other than that the devs didn't listen to the solutions we gave them for months or pounded into the ground such that it will never again be useful to us.

I don't know if what I'm putting out here will even be bothered with at this point, but you get players to stay with the game by engendering trust in the teams that make the game, not doing things like this that erode what dwindling trust remains among your players. The devs want a positive community/playerbase, yet seem completely abhorrent to building up the game via positive means as opposed to dragging it down via negative reinforcement. The truth of the matter is that it feels like the devs are doing this to spite us for some reason, and as a player I have to tell you that is not a good feeling to have on my end.

What little communication we get is in the form of "we know better than you so there" or them having you (the CMs) ask us questions as if they know nothing about how we feel despite us telling them for over two years.

There were suggestions that were given that would have allowed players to strive for desired builds prior to Torment and then improve those builds via better versions of the gear once they got into Torment by introducing an affix roll range tiering system, but instead we just got all of our class sets locked away into Torment, thus nullifying those builds altogether until we could get to a point where we were comfortable in Torment.

There have been countless threads giving suggestions on how to make Legendaries actually feel Legendary again so that the pool of desirable items would be viable for the long haul. What did we get instead? Gutting of several Legendary affix capabilities or the outright removal of said affix, leaving us with even more Legendaries that are nothing more than glorified rares.

We have BoA, yet the drop rates in the game, including rifts, doesn't even come close to Diablo 2's drop rates and that game had free trade. Combine that with the preceding paragraph's issue and you have Loot Letdown 2.0. And thanks to the intention to switch around the elemental properties again instead of making the subpar skills/runes viable we're going to have to regear ourselves and drop down difficulties while doing so.

Is the sky falling? I sure hope not. But what is falling is our level of trust and hope that RoS will be a great game we want to continue playing. Your players can only be pushed so far before they snap and completely stop trusting Blizzard entirely. Folks like myself shouldn't be having to make posts like this, but the continued negative reinforcement doesn't really leave much in the way of alternatives other than to try to get it through to you that we are not enjoying the development path being taken with this game.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: If a game is supposed to be something that entertains those that play it, then you need to sit down and ask youselves why we players are so apprehensive and stressed out every time we see any announcement from Blizzard. I should enjoy visiting these fora or places like DiabloFans or MMO-Champion, yet I actually cringe at the thought of clicking on any of the Blue Trackers these days. Doesn't that tell you guys anything?

I know nobody at Blizzard likes being referenced at all in the same sentence as David Bresnik, but he and his team are watching very closely what happens here and they're learning from your mistakes. While a game like Marvel Heroes will likely never be something I really play since I'm not a Marvel Universe fan (i.e. it isn't my cup of tea), mechanically they're building a better and better game each patch, primarily by not making the mistakes that are being made over on this side of the gaming fence. Depending on the individual player, MH may or may not have weaker franchise value, but mechanically speaking it is poised to surpass RoS by leaps and bounds in the not too distant future because that development team is using as much positive change and reinforcement as they can in their processes. Players over there look forward to each new set of patch notes while players here dread them even coming out, wondering what is next on the chopping block.

I sincerely implore the developers to rethink their strategy with this one. While it's one thing to adapt to changing environments, this is not the type of game where changing environments, especially in this manner, is taken very well. Players can adapt, but adapting does not equate to them enjoying the changes.

And isn't enjoyment what this game and franchise are supposed to be all about?
________________________________________________
Technical Support MVP
Prime Directives:
1. Serve the public trust.
2. Protect the innocent.
3. Uphold the law.
4. Smash, Jay, Smash!


îîîîîî

THIS!
It's like you're speaking out of my soul!
Thank you for your words. Truer words have never been spoken.
Reply Quote
I'm using it atm in t1 and t2, have a leg with + %dmg while moving and a belt with + lightning damage. It works against mobs but yea single target it sucks balls. But against mobs I feel it's faster than frenzy for example. Haven't tried cleave against mobs in t1 or t2 yet though.

So yea, I have only picked up diablo again recently so am still a newb, but i feel it works ok for me atm.
Reply Quote
04/29/2014 06:38 AMPosted by DrussIV
I'm using it atm in t1 and t2, have a leg with + %dmg while moving and a belt with + lightning damage. It works against mobs but yea single target it sucks balls. But against mobs I feel it's faster than frenzy for example. Haven't tried cleave against mobs in t1 or t2 yet though.

So yea, I have only picked up diablo again recently so am still a newb, but i feel it works ok for me atm.


yes u got it totally right! if u see the skill basically is it dealing 280% weapon damage, but it out dps by cleave these all for a single target champion.

why is it got higher weapon damage, and a fury spender dealing so little damage compare to a fury generater?
Reply Quote
04/29/2014 12:59 AMPosted by PunkNoka
I know nobody at Blizzard likes being referenced at all in the same sentence as David Bresnik, but he and his team are watching very closely what happens here and they're learning from your mistakes


Sorry TheTias, I play both (and enjoy) both games and while MH is a lot of fun it lacks the challenge factor of putting together a good build. One of the reasons is precisely because they nerf broken overperforming stuff like SoH and Frost Orb if people are using those items as a crutch to circumvent any level of design.

MH is very 'try everything rapid development' vs. Blizzard's very conservative approach and it has pros and cons. You can just throw on almost anything over there and do the hardest difficulties. Their synergies (not the official paper named synergy but what actually exists between the characters skills are still at a D2 level with basic things like AoE, AoE again, Here's an AoE. Absolutely there you just pick the highest % and don't consider all the other factors. This gives MH a very 'fluff' feel compared to the more interesting design currently in D3. It's more about just trying to squeeze out another 5% performance at the very top in MH like D3 was in 1.X rather than an integrated progression all the way up and that is what D3 is entering into now which is a pretty difficult feat to pull off in an ARPG.

If MH takes away from this game at this point that is what they should take away because during 1.X simplistic broken builds dominated this game and I spent all my time at MH after a while. However in 2.0 there are challenges and a LOT of interesting synergies to be found in D3. Brokenly overpowered stuff carves right through all those synergies making them pointless.

I've been around just as long as all green texters and I don't agree with TheTias much in this post.
Edited by Otaking#1972 on 4/29/2014 8:16 AM PDT
Reply Quote
04/29/2014 05:55 AMPosted by meistermomm
Players over there look forward to each new set of patch notes while players here dread them even coming out, wondering what is next on the chopping block.


This absolutely not true, I have been on the MH Spiderman forums for a couple of months and if anything MH's rapid development process means things are far more in flux than Diablo.
Edited by Otaking#1972 on 4/29/2014 8:14 AM PDT
Reply Quote
04/28/2014 07:12 AMPosted by jdkzombie
If WW just did , perhaps, 500% weapon damage, it just might make it worthwhile on higher difficulties.

275% weapon damage is pathetic. Especially when coupled with the paltry proc coefficient.


the problem is it is not even dealing as much damamge as a cleave that is 220% weapon damamge,
we are worst than a wd festish army pet
Edited by MINIKONG#6191 on 4/29/2014 8:22 AM PDT
Reply Quote
I use WW to maneuver into position for hammer. outside of that its pretty lack luster, only when i use Maximus does WW get a oomph to it.
Reply Quote
barbs need to be reworked WW is terrible SS is god awful and spear is ok with 300th spear only decent thing we have is Hota-smash
Reply Quote
04/21/2014 01:12 PMPosted by soci
SOH nerf killed lightning as a good late game build choice.

Bull.
It just killled WW and SoH.
WW is crap as a main source of damage beyond t3.

Currently I'm lightning with SoH and Odyns Son. Fantastic damage, and I look forward to eventually using Leapquake, IK set, or both ( with RRoG this is possible)
Together as one will be great, SoH and Odyns SOn are great, and I have no complaints.
Reply Quote
I think the main problem with the barbarian is this:

WHAT IS THE PHILOSOPHY behind the different builds?

Im asking since it is obvious that blizz intended for the fire barbarian to be best at doling out damage. Which would be fine, IF the fire barb had to pay for that with some loss of tankiness (which is not at all the case, lightning has no better survivability than fire in the least), or at least the lightning build would feature enough utility runes to make it feel different than a pure damage dealer but still be worthwhile.

But currently, the lightning build (and anything outside of a fire build) has no reason to exist, and I cannot see the sense behind this.

Not only does fire do at the absolute least 100% more damage than lightning with equal gear, but you also tend to add survivability since health globes only drop when you do enough dps, and since fire generators generate enough fury to constantly selfheal.

But back to the philosophy behind the builds: IF the lightning build did 80% of the damage output of fire BUT added some stuns and other utility to close the gap, then people wouldnt automatically be forced into fire. That way, you would actually HAVE A CHOICE in the way you decide to play, because a fire barb couldnt automatically be considered dramatically superior in all scenarios. But it would take a monumental buff to get to that level.
Edited by EdReed20#2699 on 5/10/2014 1:40 AM PDT
Reply Quote
04/21/2014 01:04 PMPosted by Nevalistis
Some of these tests can be misleading in that they often create an environment attempting to compare each skill point-for-point when not all skills are designed to perform equally under the same circumstances.

Using Whirlwind as your exclusive damage dealer on Ghom is going to have lower performance when compared to something like Ancient Spear because it's designed to hit multiple targets. Whirlwind is the type of skill that performs exponentially better the more targets it's able to hit, and less well on single targets. Ancient Spear, on the other hand, is tuned the other way around (better at single target, less than ideal at multi-target) as it's (generally) a single-target skill.

Damage is not the only factor of a skill that's weighed when we're considering balance. The proc coefficient, the average number of targets a skill usually hits, the amount of player skill involved to capitalize on an ability's powers, and whether or not that skill provides any additional utility bonuses are some of the other parts of that equation. While some of that is quantifiable data, other details are a bit harder to measure in raw numbers. That's part of what makes the act of balancing so tricky.

We want to make sure each skill is serving its design intent and feels good when utilized in those environments. Single-target skills will generally excel the most when you're fighting bosses, when AoE skills will feel more powerful among packs of beasties. We think that Whirlwind, when used in the latter situation, feels pretty good right now, and even more so when geared up with items that synergize well with its strengths.

We're keeping an ever-vigilant eye on player feedback and our own data, and as these concerns pop up, those of us on the Community team will continue to do our best to let you know what the thoughts are behind these design decisions. :)


Except almost all elites have cc and that can really mess you up in ww. Almost any other build to a lesser degree.

And this is coming from someone who when starting to play again naturally went to ww (before asking people for advice or looking on the forum) because I like the skill. But then I read forums and even simple frenzy/HotA is vastly superior against large mobs (which according to you is the only situation one should use WW) and against elites well no comparison.

There is a weapon, forgot it's name, that gives you +50%dmg (on best roll) to weapon throw and ancient spear. Why not make one for ww and overpower:

1. Those two work together, you can use overpower without having to stop (ww and mr yens pants benefit from not having to stop to attack, e.g. even revenge you stop to do that skill)

2. There are lightning runes for both so lightning would get an implicit buff, which it badly needs.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]