Diablo® III

ww is toooooooo weak

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you do know you can add ww to your fire build right?
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05/15/2014 06:37 AMPosted by Fourty2DNAD3
you do know you can add ww to your fire build right?


Of course. Doesn't change the fact that its still subpar damage at higher torment levels and doesnt sustain as well without wind shear.
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I really like how cleave performed better than WW. I can't recall using cleave past the first week of D3.

I tried WW out on my Barb (female one is my main now) and the damage output was extremely subpar. Sheet dps hit 1.757 million and was really slow killing elites. My EQ build kills elites at least 20 times faster than WW.

I used WW on T4 and run EQ on T5 (I could possibly do T6, have yet to try). I wish WW could be viable as the fury spender on T5 and T6. I love WW in general, that is why I rolled a Barb on launch night.
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With endgame gear, maybe Fire WW would crit over 3M on non-elites. Emphasis on maybe.

On the other hand, Fire Footebord Crusader with endgame gear is doing this with one shield:
~15M crits non elite
~33% chance to proc ~7M+ explosions EVERY bounce
~No cost
~Bounces automatically 5-6 times
~Full screen range
~Not even the best spec for crusaders, lol.

If anyone still thinks WW is still fine they are on some good drugs.
Edited by Overpowered#1171 on 5/18/2014 11:56 AM PDT
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Threw my calculations and as I use WW as a utility and finisher. For it to be efficient you need. 15% WW on helm and Boots. Along with running a fire barb and WW - Volcanic Eruption.

You also need 2.5mil unbuff ele Dps to go along with that. That is a low estimate for effectiveness.

I have 1.6mil unbuff ele dps and WW does no dmg. Figure in another 1 mil dps and maybe 30% + dmg then it might be viable as a skill.

Might I add by my consideration on what no dmg is. My WW crits for 2mil -2.5mil. For it to be effective I feel 4mil crits are needed.
Edited by Abomb247#1301 on 5/18/2014 12:03 PM PDT
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05/18/2014 12:02 PMPosted by Abomb247
Threw my calculations and as I use WW as a utility and finisher. For it to be efficient you need. 15% WW on helm and Boots. Along with running a fire barb and WW - Volcanic Eruption.

You also need 2.5mil unbuff ele Dps to go along with that. That is a low estimate for effectiveness.

I have 1.6mil unbuff ele dps and WW does no dmg. Figure in another 1 mil dps and maybe 30% + dmg then it might be viable as a skill.

Might I add by my consideration on what no dmg is. My WW crits for 2mil -2.5mil. For it to be effective I feel 4mil crits are needed.


Even if WW can crit for 4M you will still be doing far less damage than a fire Wizard with Mirroball holding down the left click button. Once again, at zero cost, full screen range and far better coverage.

What a sick joke WW has become.
Edited by Overpowered#1171 on 5/18/2014 12:15 PM PDT
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05/18/2014 12:13 PMPosted by Overpowered
05/18/2014 12:02 PMPosted by Abomb247
Threw my calculations and as I use WW as a utility and finisher. For it to be efficient you need. 15% WW on helm and Boots. Along with running a fire barb and WW - Volcanic Eruption.

You also need 2.5mil unbuff ele Dps to go along with that. That is a low estimate for effectiveness.

I have 1.6mil unbuff ele dps and WW does no dmg. Figure in another 1 mil dps and maybe 30% + dmg then it might be viable as a skill.

Might I add by my consideration on what no dmg is. My WW crits for 2mil -2.5mil. For it to be effective I feel 4mil crits are needed.


Even if WW can crit for 4M you will still be doing far less damage than a fire Wizard with Mirroball holding down the left click button. Once again, at zero cost, full screen range and far better coverage.

What a sick joke WW has become.


Well.. If my WW is doing 4mil crit dmg. I can burn a elite with 100mil life in about. 5 seconds. WW is a skill that hits often. When I have the power buff and 3mil dmg my ww hits for 8mil dmg and I kill a elite with 1 billion life in 10 seconds. It doesn't have to hit super hard just with right combo and crit does a ton of dmg.

Which is why I said 4mil dmg would be fine. you can nuke everything with that kind of damage.
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WW was never the damage dealer in the 1st place. It was just the skill that let you pass through mobs to lay down the nados that did the real damage. iirc ww only accounted for 20% of the damage while the nados did 80% or more. Do the nados not hit like they used to?
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05/18/2014 04:22 PMPosted by Unclepauly
WW was never the damage dealer in the 1st place. It was just the skill that let you pass through mobs to lay down the nados that did the real damage. iirc ww only accounted for 20% of the damage while the nados did 80% or more. Do the nados not hit like they used to?


From what I remember the tornadoes were always kind of sad damage but they generated lot of extra fury and LoH.

What hurts WW now in my opinion is the low damage, sad proc coefficients, and the internal cooldowns on the various weapon procs.
Edited by Whorhay#1882 on 5/18/2014 4:47 PM PDT
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05/18/2014 04:22 PMPosted by Unclepauly
WW was never the damage dealer in the 1st place. It was just the skill that let you pass through mobs to lay down the nados that did the real damage. iirc ww only accounted for 20% of the damage while the nados did 80% or more. Do the nados not hit like they used to?


Yup you recall correctly, the rtlw nados did the majority of the damage but the game has changed much since then. First off, rtlw in vanilla did 60% wep @ 20/3 while ww did 145%. Now ww is buffed to a base of 275% while rtlw was left at 60%, they even lowered the proc rate of rltw to something abysmal like 0.56%

WW definately needs some love, the proc rate of 13% which was lowered YEARS ago due to Loh needs to be increased, and 275% as a spender is quite low, even at a high breakpoint it is lackluster in dps. I say double the proc rate (26%) and up the base line to atleast 325% then bump up molten fury to compensate so 375%, test that for awhile and see how it goes.
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04/21/2014 01:04 PMPosted by Nevalistis
Some of these tests can be misleading in that they often create an environment attempting to compare each skill point-for-point when not all skills are designed to perform equally under the same circumstances.

Using Whirlwind as your exclusive damage dealer on Ghom is going to have lower performance when compared to something like Ancient Spear because it's designed to hit multiple targets. Whirlwind is the type of skill that performs exponentially better the more targets it's able to hit, and less well on single targets. Ancient Spear, on the other hand, is tuned the other way around (better at single target, less than ideal at multi-target) as it's (generally) a single-target skill.

Damage is not the only factor of a skill that's weighed when we're considering balance. The proc coefficient, the average number of targets a skill usually hits, the amount of player skill involved to capitalize on an ability's powers, and whether or not that skill provides any additional utility bonuses are some of the other parts of that equation. While some of that is quantifiable data, other details are a bit harder to measure in raw numbers. That's part of what makes the act of balancing so tricky.

We want to make sure each skill is serving its design intent and feels good when utilized in those environments. Single-target skills will generally excel the most when you're fighting bosses, when AoE skills will feel more powerful among packs of beasties. We think that Whirlwind, when used in the latter situation, feels pretty good right now, and even more so when geared up with items that synergize well with its strengths.

We're keeping an ever-vigilant eye on player feedback and our own data, and as these concerns pop up, those of us on the Community team will continue to do our best to let you know what the thoughts are behind these design decisions. :)


^ Makes NO sense! Seismic Slam hits tons of Targets and yet does tons more damage than WW. HOTA does as well and is even better with Battlerage+bloodshed! It needs a buff bigtime. So dont tell me because the SPear is single target thats why its stronger, all I say is LOOK AT SEISMIC SLAM, ITS DAMAGE, AND AREA OF EFFECT!
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Damn I just upped my attack speed to hit a higher breakpoint just to see if the RLtW tornados still melt and they do. Too bad there isn't any practical way to utilize them.
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T4 ww np light
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I would like to see a barb-build which can compete with my poorly geared Pet-WD.

Maybe EQ can, the rest just can't. Hitting ~120 mil dps on RG's just like that (and ~200 with Harringtons) is so far above anything I've seen from a barb, it isn't funny at all. Hell, my fetishes are critting for up to 30 mil and I'm far away from having perfect items (ok, MoJ is sweet.. but that's it).

Add the fact that barbs have less skill-changing bonuses (there are 9 bonuses directly affecting skills, whereas crusaders have 22 (!!!)) than any other class (even DH's got 13) and you should know that barbs are indeed the red-haired stepchildren which are getting no love at all.

In addition, Grimiku's comments about WW are just plain stupid. Both, Seismic Slam and Hota are superior (damage wise) over WW in every (!) situation and if you can't see that, you have never played WW, period.

Leap into a group of mobs (with the pull rune), hit HotA twice and you are golden. WW just can't do that. Go and try it out.
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04/21/2014 01:04 PMPosted by Nevalistis
Some of these tests can be misleading in that they often create an environment attempting to compare each skill point-for-point when not all skills are designed to perform equally under the same circumstances.

Using Whirlwind as your exclusive damage dealer on Ghom is going to have lower performance when compared to something like Ancient Spear because it's designed to hit multiple targets. Whirlwind is the type of skill that performs exponentially better the more targets it's able to hit, and less well on single targets. Ancient Spear, on the other hand, is tuned the other way around (better at single target, less than ideal at multi-target) as it's (generally) a single-target skill.

Damage is not the only factor of a skill that's weighed when we're considering balance. The proc coefficient, the average number of targets a skill usually hits, the amount of player skill involved to capitalize on an ability's powers, and whether or not that skill provides any additional utility bonuses are some of the other parts of that equation. While some of that is quantifiable data, other details are a bit harder to measure in raw numbers. That's part of what makes the act of balancing so tricky.

We want to make sure each skill is serving its design intent and feels good when utilized in those environments. Single-target skills will generally excel the most when you're fighting bosses, when AoE skills will feel more powerful among packs of beasties. We think that Whirlwind, when used in the latter situation, feels pretty good right now, and even more so when geared up with items that synergize well with its strengths.

We're keeping an ever-vigilant eye on player feedback and our own data, and as these concerns pop up, those of us on the Community team will continue to do our best to let you know what the thoughts are behind these design decisions. :)


Blah blah blah, WW dmg is complete garbage compared to other spenders, with crap fury DEGEN, unless passive and Hexing pants, theres no room for another spender with WW, make it a generator then or up the DMG so it's viable alone

*saying spear is a single target skill is pretty bad argument as it pierces and when i have used it i used it on mobs lining for multiple targets, all your arguments as to why WW is DMG nerfed so hard are invalid
Edited by WyrmSlyr#1873 on 6/20/2014 8:24 AM PDT
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04/21/2014 01:04 PMPosted by Nevalistis
Whirlwind is the type of skill that performs exponentially better the more targets it's able to hit, and less well on single targets


  • Whirlwind is about as strong as Weapon Throw for single target.
  • Whirlwind is weaker than Frenzy for single target, considering weapon procs such as Thunderfury, Odyn Son and Shard of Hate
  • Whirlwind is weaker than Hammer of the Ancient for single target
  • Whirlwind is weaker than Hammer of the Ancients if you use Battle Rage - Bloodshed
  • Whirlwind is weaker than Seismic Slam for single target
  • Whirlwind is weaker than Seismic Slam for AoE. Period.


Tell me again, when does Whirlwind becomes stronger than any skill?

I give you the answer: it never does!

I understand that Whirlwind costs only 10 Fury and is virtually free to cast with the Lightning Rune (it actually generates Fury if you hit enough targets), but that's no excuse to have a Fury Spender that's so pathetic!

Here is what should be done:

  • Whirlwind damage should be increased to 350% weapon damage
  • Wind Shear should be reworked to no longer grant Fury
  • We should have a legendary Mighty Weapon that makes Whirlwind cost no Fury (or do what the Wind Shear Rune currently does)


I know the Devs think the Whirlwind damage is fine because it costs low Fury, but Crusaders have Blessed Hammer, which also costs low Wrath and can be used without a Wrath generator. There is excuse to not buff Whirlwind, when you actually buffed Blessed Hammer in Patch 2.0.4.

Diablofans.com made a poll asking which class people enjoyed the most. You know how many answered "Barbarian"? Only 3%. When only 3% of your player base actually enjoys a class, it's time to do something about it!
Edited by Skaad#1727 on 6/20/2014 8:57 AM PDT
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the biggest problem with ww is you need a lot of ias for it to be good, at teh same time ias is quite counter productive with maxing damage in the 4:2 item setup. 2.22 aps is the minimum you want to be at to be effective and higher breakpoints are even better...

if you hit the 2.857 breakpoint for ww, you are sitting at 10 ticks per second

problem is a lot of people are in the "ias is awful in RoS" mindset and they are in the following breakpoint:
1.42858-1.53846 aps <> 13 frames <> 4.61538 ticks per second (some mace wielders even lower)...this means you have to do 217% damage with that slow speed to make the same damage...not only that but you proc almost nothing...

The other thing that a lot of people do is try to add more aoe damage (bloodshed, area damage) to ww and I think it's better to stack more single target damage like marauder's rage...

I really believe you need something like the slanderer little rogue combo to be really effective with ww, but not necessarily, esp when using wotb...

you do need ias swords though, that's for sure, this limits what items you can use effectively....

with 7% ias swords, you need 90% ias for 2.857 bp and 122% for 3.33 bp...

This might seem outlandish at first but it's really not

dual wield: 15% ias
paragon points: 10% ias
little rogue/slanderer: 30% ias

that's a total of 55% ias meaning you need 35% more for 2.857 and 67% more for 3.33

oculus ring can grant you another 15%
cain's partial set is another 8%

etc...

the point is the ww mechanic as a lot of people seem to know is way, way different than most of the other skills and is extremely reliant on ias (which was nerfed at release 2.0 and considered obsolete by a lot of people, thus rerolled off gear etc)
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06/20/2014 09:07 AMPosted by Fourty2DNAD3
the point is the ww mechanic as a lot of people seem to know is way, way different than most of the other skills and is extremely reliant on ias (which was nerfed at release 2.0 and considered obsolete by a lot of people, thus rerolled off gear etc)


None of this will make Whirlwind stronger than Blessed Hammer. And that's considering the fact Blessed Hammer isn't even a good T6 build for Crusaders.

Currently, all Whirlwind is good for on T6 is to allow you ignore unity collision, so you can avoid Elite affixes as HotA build. But in the end, Leap or Furious Charge are more efficient at that as well.
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2.857 bp ww does 916% wd/s to single target
3.333 bp ww does 1100% wd/s to single target

fire rune
2.857 bp ww does 1082% wd/s to single target
3.333 bp ww does 1300% wd/s to single target

molten fury rune for eq does 562% wd/s which means you need to double stack it to get to those levels...

if you throw in rltw nados pinging the damage blows eq out of the water.
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I tend to agree that WW just doesn't do enough damage. Hexxing + Odyn Son + +lighting and +ww damage and there's no way I could step past T3 in any efficient manner. I just kill too slowly, even if I can take the hits. If I always had 5+ targets to fight, then I'd be fine with the whole "it's good against groups but bad against single targets" thing. However, as it is, you still are fighting single targets or a low number of targets enough that you just can't get by, despite how well WW performs against large groups; and there's no room in my build to jam in a single target secondary like Ancient Spear; AND that's counter-intuitive anyway since Hexxing pants feels like a necessity to even trying WW out.

Maybe if there was another damage skill like Overpower that didn't require me to stop moving... something to spend all that extra fury you can generate with Wind Shear.

I'm fine with the proc rate, I get a good return for the most part.
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