Diablo® III

ww is toooooooo weak

04/21/2014 01:04 PMPosted by Nevalistis
We think that Whirlwind, when used in the latter situation, feels pretty good right now, and even more so when geared up with items that synergize well with its strengths.

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RIP.... HOPE...

I wonder what gear.. cause so far top streamers like Alkaizer test Light and Fire WW builds with literally the right gear maybe not 100% perf stats on gear maybe missing a few %.. or maybe physical WW is the hidden gem! pfftt..
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04/21/2014 01:04 PMPosted by Nevalistis
Some of these tests can be misleading in that they often create an environment attempting to compare each skill point-for-point when not all skills are designed to perform equally under the same circumstances.

Using Whirlwind as your exclusive damage dealer on Ghom is going to have lower performance when compared to something like Ancient Spear because it's designed to hit multiple targets. Whirlwind is the type of skill that performs exponentially better the more targets it's able to hit, and less well on single targets. Ancient Spear, on the other hand, is tuned the other way around (better at single target, less than ideal at multi-target) as it's (generally) a single-target skill.

Damage is not the only factor of a skill that's weighed when we're considering balance. The proc coefficient, the average number of targets a skill usually hits, the amount of player skill involved to capitalize on an ability's powers, and whether or not that skill provides any additional utility bonuses are some of the other parts of that equation. While some of that is quantifiable data, other details are a bit harder to measure in raw numbers. That's part of what makes the act of balancing so tricky.

We want to make sure each skill is serving its design intent and feels good when utilized in those environments. Single-target skills will generally excel the most when you're fighting bosses, when AoE skills will feel more powerful among packs of beasties. We think that Whirlwind, when used in the latter situation, feels pretty good right now, and even more so when geared up with items that synergize well with its strengths.

We're keeping an ever-vigilant eye on player feedback and our own data, and as these concerns pop up, those of us on the Community team will continue to do our best to let you know what the thoughts are behind these design decisions. :)


I think Blizzard needs to look over their own implementations to see WW is not in a good place when it comes to proc coefficient.

Perfect example:

    WW + Windshear = 100% proc rate, barbs find this invaluable skill to the point they cross elemental lines in order to retain its Rune ability to generate Fury.

    Weapon Master + Mighty Weapon = .13% proc rate for Fury gain using WW. No one uses this. It is useless as it does not serve the intended purpose.


Obviously Blizzard felt SoH with 100% proc coefficient was too strong, but going to .13 or the polar opposite clearly makes the skill too weak when it comes to other skills. At the very least, make the proc coefficient scale with the Attacks Per Second (APS) so that it is in-line with other abilities.

Thanks.
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My big concern is the lack of diversity in higher torment builds. The nerf to SoH made it so lightning can't come close to compete info with fire, making fire eq builds the only shower. All the lightning ww is gone from higher torment streamers already.

Frenzy deals more aoe damage than whirlwind when you consider proc rate and legendary affixes than ww does with those same weapons. That is very messed up.

It's hard to have faith in blizzard when the only viable spender barbs have is hota and every thing else is terrible. Even the most beloved iconic barb skill (ww) is in shambles but according to blizzard it's fine? Smh
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04/21/2014 01:04 PMPosted by Nevalistis
when AoE skills will feel more powerful among packs of beasties. We think that Whirlwind, when used in the latter situation, feels pretty good right now,


Really? The developers think that WW is capable of farming packs of elites in T6 fast and efficiently? Okay then....

We're screwed, the developers are delusional.
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WW is not worth the skill slot as a spender- nor is it viable when run in conjunction with big fury spenders such as HOTA.

There is simply not enough fury generation to make it worth casting.
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90 Tauren Paladin
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Posts: 165
04/21/2014 01:04 PMPosted by Nevalistis
Some of these tests can be misleading in that they often create an environment attempting to compare each skill point-for-point when not all skills are designed to perform equally under the same circumstances.

Using Whirlwind as your exclusive damage dealer on Ghom is going to have lower performance when compared to something like Ancient Spear because it's designed to hit multiple targets. Whirlwind is the type of skill that performs exponentially better the more targets it's able to hit, and less well on single targets. Ancient Spear, on the other hand, is tuned the other way around (better at single target, less than ideal at multi-target) as it's (generally) a single-target skill.

Damage is not the only factor of a skill that's weighed when we're considering balance. The proc coefficient, the average number of targets a skill usually hits, the amount of player skill involved to capitalize on an ability's powers, and whether or not that skill provides any additional utility bonuses are some of the other parts of that equation. While some of that is quantifiable data, other details are a bit harder to measure in raw numbers. That's part of what makes the act of balancing so tricky.

We want to make sure each skill is serving its design intent and feels good when utilized in those environments. Single-target skills will generally excel the most when you're fighting bosses, when AoE skills will feel more powerful among packs of beasties. We think that Whirlwind, when used in the latter situation, feels pretty good right now, and even more so when geared up with items that synergize well with its strengths.

We're keeping an ever-vigilant eye on player feedback and our own data, and as these concerns pop up, those of us on the Community team will continue to do our best to let you know what the thoughts are behind these design decisions. :)


The fact that he did it faster with Cleave should say something because no one uses that ability because it sucks. It is also designed to hit multiple targets.

What makes player skill matter in a single player game like this? No one PvPs Nev, it's not a thing in this game. Have you played Whirlwind barb lately? NO ONE who actually plays the class thinks its in a good place.

You have to remember sometimes its not what you feel is in a good place, but that of your player base. A large sum of which is extremely upset with the current whirlwind. How you feel about an ability might not matter when you have no people playing your game.
Edited by Bonedozer#1880 on 4/21/2014 1:36 PM PDT
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I stopped using it because my odyn rarely procced and it was taking too long to kill elites.
I only miss the ability to walk through mobs.
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its intended to work better on more mobs?

how is it that i take longer to kill/heal less when using WW in a large mob, when compared to the same size mob and HOTA.

10 mobs + ww = 15-18k life regen/tick
10 mobs + hota = 42-60k life regen/tick

the 2 skills dont compare in any way under any circumstance
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You people complaining know nothing about WW mechanics... you're all just waiting for someone to show you how, so you can do what they do like the mindless sheep you are.

FYI It's a skill that can tick upto 15 times a second paired with a skill that tick up to 15 times a second with multiple tornadoes, and it's so fast all the damage numbers will not/can't appear on screen.

Granted, improving the proc coefficient will make area damage more important that it already is, however, Whrilwind and Run Like The Wind has been about frequency breakpoints, and continues to be about frequency breakpoints.

With no clue how WW mechanics work, and a much higher gear requirement to be effective... your only option is to open channels with the devs to express your ignorance. GGWP

my WW barb dream

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/the-slanderer
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/little-rogue
Edited by Gnosis#1870 on 4/21/2014 1:46 PM PDT
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04/21/2014 01:12 PMPosted by soci
WW is not imo a huge issue but the fact that lightning/cold/non-fire builds all perform poorly and aren't really good compared with fire.


This is actually a topic I've been meaning to post on for a while, but hadn't found a good opportunity yet. Now's as good a time as any, I suppose!

When we did a pass on elemental damage types across skills during the Closed Beta for Reaper of Souls, the Barbarian class was one that received the most revision. While we arrived at a place much closer to where we were aiming, we think there's room for some additional adjustments. I don't have details on exact changes to share at this time, but it's likely you'll see some skills, and not just for the Barbarian, shift around their elemental type in a future patch.
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90 Tauren Paladin
8655
Posts: 165
04/21/2014 01:48 PMPosted by Nevalistis
04/21/2014 01:12 PMPosted by soci
WW is not imo a huge issue but the fact that lightning/cold/non-fire builds all perform poorly and aren't really good compared with fire.


This is actually a topic I've been meaning to post on for a while, but hadn't found a good opportunity yet. Now's as good a time as any, I suppose!

When we did a pass on elemental damage types across skills during the Closed Beta for Reaper of Souls, the Barbarian class was one that received the most revision. While we arrived at a place much closer to where we were aiming, we think there's room for some additional adjustments. I don't have details on exact changes to share at this time, but it's likely you'll see some skills, and not just for the Barbarian, shift around their elemental type in a future patch.


Can you just release a Lightning coat, Frozen Coat, and Poison Coat please? I think that would just about do it. Maybe some Elementals Fisterinos too? Or just nerf Cindercoat and make me quit this game. That works too.
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04/21/2014 01:48 PMPosted by Nevalistis
04/21/2014 01:12 PMPosted by soci
WW is not imo a huge issue but the fact that lightning/cold/non-fire builds all perform poorly and aren't really good compared with fire.


This is actually a topic I've been meaning to post on for a while, but hadn't found a good opportunity yet. Now's as good a time as any, I suppose!

When we did a pass on elemental damage types across skills during the Closed Beta for Reaper of Souls, the Barbarian class was one that received the most revision. While we arrived at a place much closer to where we were aiming, we think there's room for some additional adjustments. I don't have details on exact changes to share at this time, but it's likely you'll see some skills, and not just for the Barbarian, shift around their elemental type in a future patch.

Good to know your doing the elemental damage switch up. It's one of the things the forums fail to realize because they get obssesed with frozen orb builds. Cold builds fall short on my WD for instance, put a cold insect swarm in, and a fire haunt/barrage.That would help a lot for DoT WD's.

Also for a lot of classes we need better options for +% physical. Zoo WD's for instance (if zombie bears were phyiscal, oh man i'd have to make a new build). With monks crusaders and barbs physical builds flop bad. Buffing physical damage runes would be nice for monks, barbs, and crusaders. These are just a few examples (My main is WD obviously :p)

Last but not least WW does feel week and is the funnest ability for the class IMO. Give us a legendary to buff it. Seems like a fair trade. A reason not to use whirlwind (Don't have the gear, want to use another piece for that slot) and a reason to use it-> it's powerful and fun.
Edited by Steven#1770 on 4/21/2014 1:58 PM PDT
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04/21/2014 01:48 PMPosted by Nevalistis
04/21/2014 01:12 PMPosted by soci
WW is not imo a huge issue but the fact that lightning/cold/non-fire builds all perform poorly and aren't really good compared with fire.


This is actually a topic I've been meaning to post on for a while, but hadn't found a good opportunity yet. Now's as good a time as any, I suppose!

When we did a pass on elemental damage types across skills during the Closed Beta for Reaper of Souls, the Barbarian class was one that received the most revision. While we arrived at a place much closer to where we were aiming, we think there's room for some additional adjustments. I don't have details on exact changes to share at this time, but it's likely you'll see some skills, and not just for the Barbarian, shift around their elemental type in a future patch.


I'm glad and worried at the same time.
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This is good to hear because there are some skill gaps which will make builds playable, like cold generator and lightning Ancient Spear. I would like to see Jagged Edge as a lightning skill or at least a high dps skill as a lightning skill, because right now Fire across all specs have the high dps skills. This is probably true across all classes as well. I understand Fire is basically the squishy high dps skill set but right now with Cindercoat it makes fire the only possible build(multiple classes) because dps largely limits how effective farming is. At a certain point fire just becomes the only option. TQBH, I don't want anything nerfed because people spent a lot of time getting their gear, but I would like to see options where cindercoat + highest dps skills were not in 100% synergy.

Making lightning/cold/etc quake more viable as well for EQ quake would be nice too. The difference in damage between other specs and fire is just way to big to do anything but fire imo. Would love to do lightning quake or cold quake and have that be decent dps.
Edited by soci#1609 on 4/21/2014 2:05 PM PDT
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I guess my question is this:

What is Blizzard's intent for WW? Is it intended to be a centerpiece for one's build? Or is it intended to be a utility spell only to be used in certain situations?
Edited by Kaputt#1475 on 4/21/2014 2:05 PM PDT
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I also feel like the Proc Coefficient for WW should be looked at. It seems to be tuned for pre-ROS builds and I feel it could use a buff to better align with current ROS builds.
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04/21/2014 01:45 PMPosted by Gnosis
You people complaining know nothing about WW mechanics... you're all just waiting for someone to show you how, so you can do what they do like the mindless sheep you are.

FYI It's a skill that can tick upto 15 times a second paired with a skill that tick up to 15 times a second with multiple tornadoes, and it's so fast all the damage numbers will not/can't appear on screen.

Granted, improving the proc coefficient will make area damage more important that it already is, however, Whrilwind and Run Like The Wind has been about frequency breakpoints, and continues to be about frequency breakpoints.

With no clue how WW mechanics work, and a much higher gear requirement to be effective... your only option is to open channels with the devs to express your ignorance. GGWP

my WW barb dream

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/the-slanderer
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/little-rogue


yes its a skill that procs up to 15x/second, yet does less dmg, and produces less procs from gear than the skill that hits 1-1.5x/second
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Expecting WW to be a primary T6 dps skill with Windshear rune as an option imo is a bit wishful thinking.
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04/21/2014 02:10 PMPosted by soci
Expecting WW to be a primary T6 dps skill with Windshear rune as an option imo is a bit wishful thinking.


So we should all spec into HOTA and be done with it? I'd like more options than that.
Edited by Kaputt#1475 on 4/21/2014 2:13 PM PDT
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