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So I have been playing almost only DH since the expansion came out. I play both a lot in groups and solo as well. Mostly with my friends (Wizard, Monk, Barb) and I really feel that the DH is strongly underperforming. From my point of view he lacks in both damage (sustained dmg) and defense. Also there is not much build diversity. I play T4+ with the exception for split bounties (T1-T2).
First here is my DH:
3.Item choices, issues with trade offs
4.Discussing Vengeance, RoV, Pets (wolf)
1. Right now, I am sure cluster arrow is the only viable hatred spender. And considering fire to be the best (only viable) element there also would not be much you could switch to. I thought about elemental arrow but it fears on hit which is highly counterproductive if you just want to group the enemies and kill them all at once. Chakram is slow and doesn't do enough dmg. It has a horrible scaling. Maybe it is fine for lower torments where you need the huge area aoe but, again, it is too slow while cluster arrow and multishot come out instantly. For lower torments I would almost always go with multishot and with hexing pants/reaper's wraps I will regen my hatred fast enough to keep going at all times.
Imho strafe is comparably useless. The only thing it provides is the utility to strafe through units. But other than that it is pointless considering you move with 75% of your movement speed if you take a dmg-wise more "viable" rune than the movement rune. You can always stutter step with each and every other ability and achieve comparable movement across the map while attacking/kiting your enemies.
I could not think of any situation impale could be of any use. Even in boss fights cluster arrow outperfarms it strongly. It is single target only. So wasting a slot on this would be even less of a smart idea.
The Sentry+Pet build we have seen is viable but I don't think most of the players want to play that passively. Also it has been fixed in regard to sharp shooter so you have to roll cc again on your items which is a huge hit to the build.
Fan of knives is pure physical. Again, not worth it. Especially since the scaling is really bad again. Haven't tried sash of knives yet though.
Next let's talk about survivability. Dex provides dodge and only dodge. Same for the monk. But the dh doesn't have something like "one with everything" and the paragon points cannot be allocated into flat armor but only armor% and I cannot stack further dodge with paragon points to extend my natural sustain. So the dh is very much depending on his natural dodge which is unreliable due to not even being higher than 50%. Monks in addition not only have their mantras for even more dodge and a lot of mitigation through their abilities but they also benefit from their 30% dmg reduction for melees. So they do have easily higher dodge, more resistances and higher mitigation in general from abilities and natural mitigation. I know they are melee but I have reasonable motives to compare since I see my wizard mates facetanking elites with ease on T4+ without getting any dmg. If I'd do that I would instantly die. And it is not like I would be able to dish out more dmg if I tried and that I would have gone full dmg epeen mode. The only dmg passive I use is archery which I have to think about swapping for higher torments eventually since I cannot play with unity. I would lose too much dmg.
One can argue with Dhs having smoke screen and vault. But why am I forced to use these spells to begin with? I have to go smoke screen + prep or smoke screen + nightstalker/suppression fire while I already to have tactical advantage and perfectionist which already is highly restrictive for a class like the dh who has so many sweet dmg passives to add up (Sharp shooter, Ambush, Steady Aim, Archery, Cull the Weak,..) and I can barely use one. In fact, I have to use it with my build to get enough crit chance. I am kinda forced to play with royal grandeur+natalya ring to achieve sustainable crits with my 3-piece of Nat's and keep all my pets from marauders so I have someone who tanks for me. If I drop RRG I lose my pets, 7%cc and 10disc. If I drop Nat's reflection for Unity I lose a whole lot dmg versus trash mobs due to the loss of additional 250dex, my 7%cc and even 20disc which is ridiculous. And no even if I found Marauder Pants I couldn't use them since Hexing pants aren't replacable (25% more dmg and ressource regen).
You sure can drop magefist, cindercoat and go for lightning, cold or physical but you will quickly notice how bad the scalings on all the other abilities of the DH are. CA:lfb deals around 1500% weapon dmg maximum. Most of the times though not all the grenades will hit and you will not be able to sustain the dmg because either you're out of hatred or you have to back off and kite. Considering you have to go ressource cost reduction you lose out on a lot potential dmg again. Each trade off, no matter how you spin it, will result in an inferior version of all other former glass cannons.
3.Since DHs are kinda forced to play fire, cindercoat and magefist are mandatory. When I dropped my Nat's cloak for cindercoat I lost around 900 dexterity because I had to take amethysts and diamonds into my cindercoat. I have yet to see a wiz taking sustain gems into his chest/pants on softcore.
Weaponwise I am very much bound to play with 1h xbows. For one reason it is the critdmg you gain if you dw for the other it is the more sustained dmg due to higher attack speed. What people lack to see is that 1h xbows have an attack speed of 1.6 per second which is the higher of all weapons in the game. So they scale even better with attack speed than any other weapon. This however does not mean that we particularly hit hard whenever we use a spell.
Right now my weapon setup is not only directed to be viable in terms of sustained hatred and high critdmg (since the weapon dmg is kinda low), it also has to be this choice because i have to play the role of a supporter in group play. I buff my members with my pets (30%dmg from wolf and tanking pets soak up a lot dmg) but also debuff the enemy quickly with calamity and additional marks for death:contagion for 44% more dmg. This is basically pretty much all I do in group play while the wiz and barb destroy everything. =D It is kinda frustrating to not be able to really kill something despite having my equipment.
Keep in mind the DH is also the only class not being able to utilize 30% additional damage against elites from Sunkeepers, which right now is one of the best weapons for higher torments. Not only is it one of the very few weapons with this unique weapon stat but also hits quite hard for being a one handed weapon. The combination is neat!
Talking about Unity once again, how is a DH supposed to play higher torments without it while all other classes have to (ab)use it despite having much better effective health than the DH? There is literally no option for many DH-builds to implement this item into their build. Especially when going Nat Set and for the 4 Set Bonus you cannot do without Nat Reflection (Ring). Worst Case would be if you went without RorG and had to equip the boots which have two really useless standard affixes (unreasonably low armor+ms wasting two affix slots which could be better used for AR, Cluster Arrow). But this, however, would mean you're barely viable for T6 cause you miss out on the Marauder 4 Piece (shoulders, pants, chest, hands left whereof you need two slots for magefist and cindercoat.)
Last but not least we have SoJ which is much likely the best item in the game. Too bad we already have a very restricted choice between RorG, Unity, Nat's.
4.The last thing I would like to talk about is Vengeance. Compared to the wolf cooldown and Rain of Vengeance I doubt highly it impacts the DHs effectivity much. I barely feel a dmg increase when activating it and due to its high cooldown it is not even worth being picked up for the sustained dmg with the Seethe rune. RoV can be used on almost every occasion on higher torments when fighting elites and it provides a lot of utility either with stampede. Imo it is also not worth to pick up much cdr for vengeance since you would lose too many critical stats which are much more important for the dh. I would strongly suggest to reduce vengeance's cooldown tremendously and/or give it sustain/defensive boosts in addition. Compared to Archon this ability is quite a joke. Vengeance doesn't give you resistance, nor armor, nor raw dmg. It does not give you stackable dmg. It doesn't even give you sustained CA-spam unless you really went for ressource cost reduction in the first place. Other than that it is has the same cd/active time ratio as Archon. Furthermore, Archon has the capability of being used with all runes with the Vyr set. So you would get 20 second less cd, another 20% flat dmg increase, teleport each 3 seconds (much less with common cdr archon builds), slow time around the wiz, 3.6k% weapon dmg on activation. Archon is not only stronger on paper. You get different kinds of spells in Archon form which deal significantly more dmg.
5. Thinking about the set bonuses we got compared to other classes it just confirms my theory of Blizz not having the slightest clue of how bad the DH actually is. They really seem to overestimate his damage potential since they gave us merely defensive or passive set bonuses.
The 6-piece bonus is very specific. Who would have thought dhs would want to play very passive and even more restrictive sentry/pet builds? I didn't. Going Tasker and Theo and the sentry quiver just running around and setting up sentries. We got Vengeance as a new ability with a huge cooldown which went into the right direction of giving us more potential of dealing enormous dmg actively but the set bonus directs us into passive sentry builds.
-Ring of royal Grandeur
-Nat Helmet + Slayer + Reflection (swap it for SoJ for longer fights/single target fights after using RoV)
-hexing pants (too strong to take marauder pants.)
-marauder boots (since nat boots have 2 useless affixes) + shoulders + gauntlets (dropping magefist)
It is restricted, yes. But this is the only rational way of combining the 2 strongest set piece bonuses of the dh into one build. still you cannot cookie cut with even both of these bonuses. While the barb/wiz have only to take one 4 piece (eq/vyr) to destroy higher torments you will have to rely on 2 4-piece bonusses and still not be able to do the same. And while we need to kite and dodge everything having 6 set items + rorg equipped other classes pull everything together and oneshot everything (wd soul harvest 2 hits t6 bosses, barbs perma-eq for 16000% weapon dmg, wizards crit for 100m+ on average in archon and still can go face to face).
Now what does the set give us? For one we get another defensive bonus which potentially allows us to stay longer in the fight unless we are oneshot anyways which would be easily the case. It is a free smokescreen whenever we mess something up bigtime. Not too bad. Not gamechanging either. Now the 4 piece bonus! This actually could have become really interesting if it was not for the "demons" Reduce all cooldowns by 1 second every time you kill a demon. This could have become the perfect bonus to synergyze with our new Vengeance and would allow for some interesting combinations with different cooldowns if it worked against all monster types. Too bad we don't have too many cds anyways and the Nat set already covers RoV cd so it would become obsolete with the Shadow set. This set is a complete disgrace since it doesn't work in rifts at all. Not only would I have to sacrifice a bunch of vital battle stats but also would I only get an unreliable set bonus which probably wouldn't have worked in most rifts anyway.
Don't take this as a rant. I am just seriously concerned of how my favourite class is balanced right now. And I think atm the DH has to be build very restrictive to be able going for higher torments. He exceeds on lower difficulties but loses all his effectivity when going up in torment levels.
edit: structured my text a little. it was quite a wall of text. sorry for that. i hope you now can read it more comfortably.
Edited by Romzen#2619 on 4/25/2014 5:16 PM PDT
Hey man Im gonna read this later when Im not at work, but I glanced over it real fast and I tend to agree with you. I am still missing a few piece of gear that you have. Mostly I would just like the damn marauders treads to drop! but I feel your pain. I just recently started playing my wizard and although she doesn't and probably wont put out the DPS my DH does now she sure as heck can stay alive a lot longer. It is so nice being able to stand in area effects and arcanes, or be jailed and not instantly die.
Again will read over later but nice gear, grats, really jealous of your calamity and 3piece +RoRG marauders.
note if you look at my DH she is set up for speed farming right now, not my normal gear.
Didn't even need to read that entire wall of text from OP
It's pretty clear - , OP you are too narrowminded and lack creativity.
Simple as that
DH's have multiple viable builds for T1-T3.
Strafe works really nice for bounty speed farming or speed clearing T1 rifts
Multishot as well
I personally do chakram/pets/sentry for T4+....and its very fun and totally viable.. easily complete T4 rifts solo in under 15 mins
CA is a decent build, but its purely a burst build.
Burst is great for T1 but when you need sustain damage, CA builds suck (unless you have a crazy amount of resource redux... unloading your hatred bar at T4+ elites with billions of HP will not do too much, which is where sustain DPS really shines...pets/sentries constantly spamming some decent crits while chakrams (very easy to spam) are critting 10m+ easily is better than CA builds unless you have godly gear for CA...)
so OP, be more creative. Not everything has to be CA... theres some pretty great sustain DPS builds for high torment as a DH...
Edited by SkiTz#1750 on 4/22/2014 10:33 AM PDT
You're not...no character is forced to use certain skills.
OP I don't think you are utilizing your character and damage very well.
White enemies don't go down fast enough?
Entangling Shot-Justice is Served && Cull of the Weak.
Need more survivability?
You have so many options....
1. Smoke Screen - Healing Rune
2. Quiver with vitality and 2H bow (more weapon damage = more crits, helps balance out the attack speed loss when you are doing more raw damage)
3. Stop using Preperation-Punishment to regen your Hatred. Keep it for SS. You have 50 discipline..that's like 4 smoke screens in a row you can use. Potential to heal 200k life when you are in a tricky situation.
4. Preperation still has other good runes for survivability. Mix this with SS and you have 6 smoke screens you can use in a row.
5. Shadow power isn't dead.
Shadow Power-Well of Darkness + 1 hit of SS = 50k life + LoH for 5 seconds.
Shadow Power runs out, you still can use more SS or Preparation right after.
I think you get the point. Plenty of options.
Oh and for the DH not doing damage? Lol. Lol again. DH can walk around doing 40M+ crits 4-5+ times in a row with Cindercoat. 200M burst damage with one skill? Yeah, that's pretty bad damage.
I think you didn't read my post thoroughly, did you? Let me quickly refer to each of your mentioned options and explain how they lack in some way.
1. Taking the heal rune on SS will remove displacement which will reduce your movement and therefore survivability greatly. I would never take that rune! Neither would I use any of my slots for another movement ability like vault if I already have SS in my setup. It is a huge waste of potential dps.
2. 2h weapons+quiver indeed provides more survivability if you have vit on your quiver. but overall it doesnt outperform your 2*1h xbow combination with 2 crit gems. It, moreover, denies you utilizing Nat's slayer in one of your slots for the set bonuses. And a calamity gives you free MfD which is much bigger than any 2h weapon could be; especially in party play.
3. It is not about healing up. This imbalance is about not taking much damage in the first place. Why should I rely that much on healing up while others can simply stand there and facetank all the elites without repercussions? Meanwhile I run around, not only, because I _have_ to evade everything, but also to keep my hatred up with globes to provide sustained dmg with cluster arrows due to reaper's wraps+blood vengeance+hexing pants and still not do comparable damage to other classes?
4. No need to explain me my class I have been playing since release, dude. ;) I know each and every option and experiment constantly. I wouldn't have opened this thread if my insight was flawed.
5. Shadow power is not even remotely as useful as it was. And if I take it in I would have to drop SS which is not possible. Again, I would lose a lot of movement speed which is no.1 stat to boost the dh's survivability. And the LoH won't help either as long as you don't take more defensive items. But doing that, as we know, would result in even less damage output.
And yes. 200m is a joke considering you have to use up all your hatred for it. A wizard in archon will crit for 200m with each attack! And he doesn't even need the set bonus from Vyr set to do so. A WD will outperform you with 1 billion hits within the same time frame.
The marauder set is kinda mandatory for the DH to survive on higher torments. I love the pet bonus just because of that. But it doesn't scale as hard with gear as other classes' bonuses. That's the deal.
If you don't bother to read my whole post I might as well just not even start reading yours, right?
Let me tell you, I don't lack the proper respect, though. As I explained in my first post CA outperforms each and every one of your suggested abilities. And this is rather about higher torment difficulties. I also admitted that the dh is great on easier difficulties and exceeds at farming on T1 and maybe T2. But this is not the point in the long run. If you want to keep farming with low drop rates little to no reward in terms of gold and xp you can feel free to do so. But in regard to future tiered rifts and ladders some more balance would actually help out the overal game enjoyment. If you lack to see this I cannot help you.
Sure Chakram and Strafe are all viable. You can play with hatred generators only if you like. You can even play with 2 skills only and 1 passive. It is a different story though if you take all of your classes options into account and compare them reasonably with all other classes' options and eventually realize how your class gets outfacerolled. And how you are forced to play very restricted styles to keep up with their pace.
And by all means, I don't think I am that bad as a player.
Not going to quote it because it's too long.
I didn't read it all - honestly it was hard to read because it's a bit bunched up, but also the layout of this forum really sucks for reading more than a few paragraphs.
Damage mitigation does suck for the DH. It's flawed, they are the only class in the game that is unable to stack real mitigation. On the flip side, that's why you do have many life restore options. Not the best system I agree.
What are your thoughts on what I said regarding Entangling Shot + Cull of the Weak? This significantly changes your damage from relying on CA. You can still spam CA, but your primary will be doing 20% more damage...that's huge. CA might even get the 20% bonus at times depending what rune you choose for it.
I agree, but I think it has a lot to do with the 4/2 setup on the items. We have to go either full offense or full defense on each item. If we don't go full offense with a DH, we can't do higher torment levels. The monsters will just catch us and one-shot us. If we go full defense, the monsters will just catch us and one-shot us.
I only play my DH in Expert and Master. I can't run around and get killed all the time since I play HC as well, I play both like I play HC. Death is failure, plain and simple.
I agree with on part of this. The survivability for DH is still disproportionately lower than the other classes. I have to roll 4 FR diamonds in my gear for survivability as I found I take more ele damage than anything else. However I think the damage is on par with other classes. The strafe build is very versatile. You can run strafe, FOK,ROV,and Veng. Or you can roll a defensive build and use vault, sentry, companion, smoke screen and on and on. I can go T3 comfortably with my build, the proc on the becon sail really helps though as it acts an an automatic life saver. I think the old days of RF face taking are still how too many people try to play the DH. For fun I like to run a comfortable level like say T1 and I will switch out my normal set up for a new skill to see how it works. Then throughout the game will change the rune associated with that skill. Its a good way to try out new skills and really play around with things until you find something that works for you. I know there are always going to be builds that are focused toward the most effecient way possible to clear mobs. But sometimes its just more fun to play how you want to play. I personally like to kill elite mobs quickly so I have tailored my build more toward that focus so I can play a roll within the group. I am a slightly above average with the trash mobs but I can really take an elite down in a few seconds. Its all in what floats yer boat.
I agree with you. My friends have been talking about this very problem since RoS came out. The real problem is the DEX bonuses. INT gives resist all, STR gives armor, but DEX gives dodge (maxing out around 50%), with extreme diminishing returns, which isn't very effective. Even the Monk has skills that can improve his dodge, and he gets the 30% melee buff. In short, Demon Hunters are powerful in VERY short bursts, with little to no damage mitigation.
here I fixed you skills for you
and on about playing
dodge = best core attribute
-> provide 100% damage reduction to pin-point melee/range attacks
-> allow for flexible choice in Armor, All Resist, and Single Resist
Our defensive passive is the best in the game, and you are already using one of them... how do you not know how it functions. Not enough dodge?
and Perfectionist is also a damage passive
btw dual-wield has the lowest sustain damage
... check the min-max value (and you weapons)
-> quiver = sustain damage
-> quiver + 2hand crossbow = highest sustain damage with highest ###
Since you are worried about performance?
How often do you and your friends die at T3+
If you guys die *once* in the Rift you guys are not doing "fine"
There are no stupid affix combination, all affix serve to kill player.
If a player dies, its not a design flaw or error, it is working as intended. Its the player's ability and choice which determines how much "fun" a player can gain from playing.
My clanmates claim to play Rift "fast" so I tried out with them at T5. It takes 20-30 min to clean a rift and everyone (including the "tank") dies at least once. We had a monk, a wizard, a witch doctor, and myself a demon hunter... white dies quickly, 2-3 second, elites around 30 secs, but the rift guardian takes a while.
I see people often complain the effort to play at T4 and T5 or even T6 is not rewarding... because players are blind. The devs aren't dumb, the game is design to be efficient if you can keep your Pool of Reflection and melt down the Rift Guardian before your long cooldown skill expires (15-20 seconds). Play where you can truly preform, not where you wish to preform.
edit: for OP to re-read
Edited by KirusAlufras#1739 on 4/22/2014 1:15 PM PDT
I seem to lack seeing where I get my movement speed from. Movement speed = biggest survivability factor of the dh. You don't have anything in this build.
Actually, I think I should just ignore you since the rest of your text is disrespectful either... =/
You really seem to either underestimate me and the players I play with without any reason or just trying to troll and annoy me. Eitherway, I will try to answer cause I am not a disrespecting person.
Awareness give flat 6% dodge if you keep dodging constantly. 1 second 100% dodge if you have stacked it up. But how does it allow me to facetank elites for several seconds without being instagibbed after a second? Right. It doesn't. And no, the options of healing yourself are just as unreliable since they cannot compensate the incomming damage even with the most defensive setup the dh can naturall offer. The repercussions of taking stuff like awareness in are just too huge. You will lose tremendously much damage output which already is too low with an offensive setup to begin with to keep up with other classes. Yes! Even with a fire CA build and sustained CA spamming.
We don't die on T4 at all. The only situation we die is by messing around and really pulling 4+ packs at once which do a lot of aoe all over the place. Especially arcane of corse and fire chains are quite strong in this iteration under certain circumstances. But believe me. We pretty much faceroll T4 and T5. We didn't play T6 much yet though. As mentioned, if we die, it is just because of stupidity and it doesnt lower our efficiency at all. And this is not about our farming groups. This is about how fine a well geared DH does in such a group and what his role in a balanced group would be. Formerly, I though he would be supposed to dish out loads of damage. Right now, I see him as a support which even lacks in sustainable dmg. Reasons are given above.
I have given reasons why 2h xbow + quiver is being outperformed.
My thoughts on CtW: the passive is quite balanced in itself. But it doesn't fit very well into the "meta" if you want to call it like that. The problem is you can barely use it if you go fire CA. Blood vengeance is mandatory. Tactical advantage is nearly a must have if you want to boost not only your clearspeed but also your survivability. Also it provides you with much more hatred if you're going for globes within fights to sustain your CAs.
My biggest problem with CtW is however that it is not a flat 20% of added dmg. You have to slow the enemies first. And you cannot slow most enemies constantly you aoe with your CAs. If you do you lose a lot of deeps due to not utilizing your whole hatred. And Hungering Arrow has much more potential to do more dmg. It hits several times and you dont have necessarily to aim perfectly since it homes. On higher torments perfectionist kinda gets more important if not mandatory as well. So you basically have only one slot left. And if you play with 2 1handers like I would suggest for 4piece marauder and 3p nats you will need the crit chance from either ss or archery. If you use hexing pants archery becomes even more interesting.
OP. I actually took the time to read your entire post + all the responses and it's pretty clear that you have your mind made up no matter what anyone tells you, whether you're right or wrong. One thing I see is that if you don't agree from your perspective, then it doesn't exist or it's not viable, and that's pretty much your stance on things. You'll attempt to find something wrong, even if there's nothing wrong with it at all.
The second thing I see is that the comparisons you're trying to make are illogical, not just skill vs skill (which doesn't make sense if you REALLY think about it) but also from class to class which is nearly impossible. We don't have benchmarks, only made up arbitrary "standards" that are far from an accurate read on much of anything, but the player base tends to try to force it because players feel the need to have to be "better" than someone else which also doesn't make any sense in this NON competitive game.
In conclusion, this thread is hardly about "DH balance" and more about your perspective on how you perceive the DH based on the way you play it.
Edited by DiEoxidE#1987 on 4/22/2014 1:00 PM PDT
You are looking at the class and specifically the passives way too rigidly. There actually is a ton of flexibility in the passives, depending on what your gear allows for you. Blood Vengeance is great for me when I do Torment 1-4, but 5 and 6 I still find tolerable without using it. Perfectionist is an amazing passive and I don't know why anyone would complain about having to take it (reducing disc cost on punishment is HUGE). Tactical Advantage is just a choice, a lot of players don't even pick it up. You really have plenty of options, and if you don't feel like that is the case, then either your gear is limiting you to play a certain way, or perhaps you aren't playing appropriately for the skills you have chosen and need to rethink your playstyle.
Who are these mythical people that can outdamage a CA DH? Your first reply is from a Wizard saying otherwise, which you seem to be ignoring - but if you head over to their forums you will see the same thing. Barbs are still drying their tears over SoH nerfs.
The only class I can think of that can compete is 6pc Harvester set WDs with that helm I cannot spell for the life of me, going around critting for billions.
I also get very skeptical whenever I hear someone say DH and 'facetank' in the same sentence. You claim to be 'efficient' but if things are sticking around long enough for any tanking to happen then that cannot be the case.
I hope you're not one of those people who can't stutter step and then complain about having to tank things, the solution is to learn how. The only thing that should ever be hitting you as a DH is Thunderstorm/Frozen and the occasional attack from offscreen.
Edited by Myon#1319 on 4/22/2014 1:14 PM PDT
I'd like point out the section in the OP where Romzen discusses some items that he can't wear because he chose Cindercoat over Nat's embrace. Yes, you heard correctly, there are significant trade offs to consider when opting for Cindercoat. Notice that Romzen doesn't have an SoJ, arguably the most powerful, stand-alone ring in the game. Furthermore, Romzen notes that he wants to use Unity but can't because he's wearing Cindercoat.
Edited by RedCell#1728 on 4/22/2014 1:26 PM PDT
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